EasyJet to create 330 pilot jobs
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Quite a few have smelled the coffee and elected to pursue their careers outside the orange machine lately. Perhaps that's why another course has been arranged. These wonderful new entrant contracts will lead to B scale commands and a final assault on existing captains. It isn't difficult to work out and it is straight out of the Ryanair guide to shoddy practice. Can't think where they got the idea from 
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I would certainly like to fly commercially, not just for pleasure.
What I'd give though, for the old days when you could pop into the cockpit to see what actually goes on and learn more about the job.
I spoke with Aeros years back and from reading up on them again, maybe their modular route would be the way to go, that way I can still run the business but also see how I feel each stage of the journey. I am sure I'll not wish to stop the training though.
At the moment I take every opportunity I can to fly, from gift vouchers to corporate gliding days and I used to Paraglide.
I think I'll pop and see Aeros but I'm most certainly staying away from CTC and programmes like that now so thank you everyone on this thread for saving me!
What I'd give though, for the old days when you could pop into the cockpit to see what actually goes on and learn more about the job.
I spoke with Aeros years back and from reading up on them again, maybe their modular route would be the way to go, that way I can still run the business but also see how I feel each stage of the journey. I am sure I'll not wish to stop the training though.
At the moment I take every opportunity I can to fly, from gift vouchers to corporate gliding days and I used to Paraglide.
I think I'll pop and see Aeros but I'm most certainly staying away from CTC and programmes like that now so thank you everyone on this thread for saving me!
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Thad
You make an interesting point if EZY are having trouble filling training courses then they are the third European airline with this problem starting to emerge.
I am going to take a guess that tis is the reason that RYR hase eased up on the T&C'S for DEC's joining the company.
It is starting to look as if the bean counters enthusiasm for turning the right seat into a revenue stream has resulted in those who have passed the line check not getting much flying ( to enable the sat to be used for P2F ) and so the company's have a glut of low time FO's who can't qualify for upgrade to captain due to the few hours they have been flying.
I shall know when the boot is firmly on the other foot when I hear airline bosses telling the aviation press about those nasty disloyal pilots ! The last time I saw this situation I got a 25% pay rise in one year without any negotiation as the airline attempted to stem the rush for the door.
I am going to take a guess that tis is the reason that RYR hase eased up on the T&C'S for DEC's joining the company.
It is starting to look as if the bean counters enthusiasm for turning the right seat into a revenue stream has resulted in those who have passed the line check not getting much flying ( to enable the sat to be used for P2F ) and so the company's have a glut of low time FO's who can't qualify for upgrade to captain due to the few hours they have been flying.
I shall know when the boot is firmly on the other foot when I hear airline bosses telling the aviation press about those nasty disloyal pilots ! The last time I saw this situation I got a 25% pay rise in one year without any negotiation as the airline attempted to stem the rush for the door.
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Birdman
With respect, the modular route has slowly died a death over the years. Thanks to P2F, there are many PPL/GA instructors you are stuck and unable to progress their careers.
It will take you at least 2 years to get your CPL/IR and then you would have to apply for an instructor rating. How old are you now?
I'm afraid some rich 22 year old CTC graduate is going to be well favoured over a mid-30s modular route grafter. That's simply the way it is now.
Why would you give up your current business and lifestyle to pursue a dream that may well end up as a nightmare?
There are no guarentees, no matter which route you take.
With respect, the modular route has slowly died a death over the years. Thanks to P2F, there are many PPL/GA instructors you are stuck and unable to progress their careers.
It will take you at least 2 years to get your CPL/IR and then you would have to apply for an instructor rating. How old are you now?
I'm afraid some rich 22 year old CTC graduate is going to be well favoured over a mid-30s modular route grafter. That's simply the way it is now.
Why would you give up your current business and lifestyle to pursue a dream that may well end up as a nightmare?
There are no guarentees, no matter which route you take.
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Right, let's really dispel some myths here because what you're saying is just silly, emotional and sensationalist. I can personally guarantee you that the majority of people doing CTC etc. are not rich - not by a long, long, long way. They may well be reckless, irresponsible and selfish but they aren't rich. Many are from from family homes that have at most a £250-350K house. I hope I'm not being a snob or out of touch with reality but those figures don't make them remotely well off to my mind. I was extremely lucky i.e. through no skill, foresight or design of my own to be have the unsecured loan through CTC and be able to train without one penny of backing from my parents or anyone else. About one year after I started with CTC all unsecured loans were pulled. Whilst doing my MCC/JOC and TR, and also now flying the line I have met tens and even hundreds of people who trained after me and had to take secured loans / 'borrow' from their family.
Personally I would not and morally could not have done what they did. I've met 19 year old state school kids whose parents live in some of the less affluent Northern cities and came across as very 'Down to Earth' when I met them. I met them at Dibden whilst they were having meet and greets and i was doing the advanced training. These people asked me for my opinion on what they were doing - putting their homes - sometimes worth £200K - up as collateral for the training. I obviously declined to comment and advised the ball was in their court. These people make up the majority of the trainees. Because the loan isn't attached to them and as is the nature of youth and pilots they go and get their own finance on cars - which anyone can get - especially people who appear to hold no debt - remember the debt is on their parents homes. i've seen these guys - when they want a holiday or an ipad then mum and dad say, don't worry - have a month off. I don't have that luxury with my loan - It's pay or go into arrears.
There are a few rich people training (nothing like the majority though) - strangely enough some of these are the
that have gone bankrupt and possibly ruined the chance of unsecured borrowing for a course like this in the future. they make me laugh - they have lovely cars, always the latest apple products, the luxury of staying on Flexi until they get what the base, contract they want an sometimes even mortgages. I don't get emotional about them though because that's their life and their families right. I'm learning a great deal from my position - restraint, responsibility and control. i know i'll have paod for and earned everything I have. If i was lucky enough to have my parents pay for it all, would I have done - you're damned skippy I would have. And so would you. So don't be jealous, bitter or a blamer. The stresses, strains and missed youth I have incurred from my debt are a massive hurdle.
We were offered some tasty parting advice by one of the directors after some cock ups - in this industry don't blame and don't complain - you'll spend your life miserable and disliked.
The people who have been instructors for 2-3 years, trained 5 years ago etc do make me laugh - you too could have tried CTC and had an unsecured loan. Why didn't you? Bad research, bad decision making or didn't get in? CTC isn't some superlative training establishment and it's product isn't necessarily the best so please don't think that is my claim. But it did the job for me. I didn't like some of the 'bosses' one bit but......whatever.
My advice?
- Integrated is the emphatic way to go if you decide to train. I don't care what someone who trained 12 years ago says - this is now. I can see why having previously done a PPL. Comparing integrated and modular is like comparing an airline and a small biz jet operator. The airline has strict, monitored SOPs, standardisation, continuity (750+ hours a year) and a wealth of experience. The biz jet operator is a bit suck it and see, make the picture fit and lacking in continuity (300 hours a year max). All of my ex biz jet friends agree having now flown for easyJet.
- I repeat I would not and could not (morally) gamble against my parents home.
- Don't listen to the crap on here. Get off here and never look back on here until you are in an airline or paid flying position.
Disclaimer: I'm not looking down my nose at anyone who has trained modularly, flown biz jets or taken loans against their parents homes. There are pros to taking these routes - you're eventual decision will be a best case average. If you're offered a biz jet position once qualified you'd be mad not to take it.
Personally I would not and morally could not have done what they did. I've met 19 year old state school kids whose parents live in some of the less affluent Northern cities and came across as very 'Down to Earth' when I met them. I met them at Dibden whilst they were having meet and greets and i was doing the advanced training. These people asked me for my opinion on what they were doing - putting their homes - sometimes worth £200K - up as collateral for the training. I obviously declined to comment and advised the ball was in their court. These people make up the majority of the trainees. Because the loan isn't attached to them and as is the nature of youth and pilots they go and get their own finance on cars - which anyone can get - especially people who appear to hold no debt - remember the debt is on their parents homes. i've seen these guys - when they want a holiday or an ipad then mum and dad say, don't worry - have a month off. I don't have that luxury with my loan - It's pay or go into arrears.
There are a few rich people training (nothing like the majority though) - strangely enough some of these are the
that have gone bankrupt and possibly ruined the chance of unsecured borrowing for a course like this in the future. they make me laugh - they have lovely cars, always the latest apple products, the luxury of staying on Flexi until they get what the base, contract they want an sometimes even mortgages. I don't get emotional about them though because that's their life and their families right. I'm learning a great deal from my position - restraint, responsibility and control. i know i'll have paod for and earned everything I have. If i was lucky enough to have my parents pay for it all, would I have done - you're damned skippy I would have. And so would you. So don't be jealous, bitter or a blamer. The stresses, strains and missed youth I have incurred from my debt are a massive hurdle.We were offered some tasty parting advice by one of the directors after some cock ups - in this industry don't blame and don't complain - you'll spend your life miserable and disliked.
The people who have been instructors for 2-3 years, trained 5 years ago etc do make me laugh - you too could have tried CTC and had an unsecured loan. Why didn't you? Bad research, bad decision making or didn't get in? CTC isn't some superlative training establishment and it's product isn't necessarily the best so please don't think that is my claim. But it did the job for me. I didn't like some of the 'bosses' one bit but......whatever.
My advice?
- Integrated is the emphatic way to go if you decide to train. I don't care what someone who trained 12 years ago says - this is now. I can see why having previously done a PPL. Comparing integrated and modular is like comparing an airline and a small biz jet operator. The airline has strict, monitored SOPs, standardisation, continuity (750+ hours a year) and a wealth of experience. The biz jet operator is a bit suck it and see, make the picture fit and lacking in continuity (300 hours a year max). All of my ex biz jet friends agree having now flown for easyJet.
- I repeat I would not and could not (morally) gamble against my parents home.
- Don't listen to the crap on here. Get off here and never look back on here until you are in an airline or paid flying position.
Disclaimer: I'm not looking down my nose at anyone who has trained modularly, flown biz jets or taken loans against their parents homes. There are pros to taking these routes - you're eventual decision will be a best case average. If you're offered a biz jet position once qualified you'd be mad not to take it.
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Whybeflier
An interesting post that on the face of it seems to advise the course of action that will result in training company's that take upwards of £110k from a person for a training course with the prospect of a job at the end of the course. then when the trainee has successfully compleated the course draws then into a contract that they know full well will not provide enough money to service the debt. However a second read of the post gives a more balanced view but is supportive of the integrated system despite its dangers.
It is hardly a moral and sustainable way of doing business and fortunately the banks have pulled the unsecured loans as a result of unfortunates who have been forced into personal bankruptcy.
It is the airlines that have seen the right hand seat as a revenue stream that are pushing this integrated training thing because it makes them money, it has nothing to do with the quality of the pilot ( generally those who have done the modular route are slightly better pilots in my experience ). It is all about how to extract the most money from those wishing to join the industry.
The policy to choose to employ those who have been on a company approved integrated course has to be seen in the light of the deal they are offering at the end of the course, a company that is offering real full time employment that gives the new FO a secure future ( as it is in the airline business!) with a realistic chance of servicing the training debt is acting in a reasonable way given the state of the industry, those however who offer a contract that binds you to the airline on a pay only when you fly are only interested in making money from you and are likely to drive you into debt as they sit the next young hopefull in the seat you have just vacated.
To advise people to get off these forums and not come back until they have a flying job is foolish, these forums present an unvarnished view of the industry as apposed to the glossy publicity pushed out by the training industry and are a much needed reality check for those who are about to invest large amounts of cash in their future.
The integrated way might well have been sucsesfull for Whybeflier but before embarking on the integrated course and the debts that go with it you have to be realistic about the way you are going to repay those debts, take a very good look at any contract and be sure that you have a real job at the end of the course, NOT some contract that ties you to an agency that may or may not offer you enough work ensure that you can meet your debts.
It is hardly a moral and sustainable way of doing business and fortunately the banks have pulled the unsecured loans as a result of unfortunates who have been forced into personal bankruptcy.
It is the airlines that have seen the right hand seat as a revenue stream that are pushing this integrated training thing because it makes them money, it has nothing to do with the quality of the pilot ( generally those who have done the modular route are slightly better pilots in my experience ). It is all about how to extract the most money from those wishing to join the industry.
The policy to choose to employ those who have been on a company approved integrated course has to be seen in the light of the deal they are offering at the end of the course, a company that is offering real full time employment that gives the new FO a secure future ( as it is in the airline business!) with a realistic chance of servicing the training debt is acting in a reasonable way given the state of the industry, those however who offer a contract that binds you to the airline on a pay only when you fly are only interested in making money from you and are likely to drive you into debt as they sit the next young hopefull in the seat you have just vacated.
To advise people to get off these forums and not come back until they have a flying job is foolish, these forums present an unvarnished view of the industry as apposed to the glossy publicity pushed out by the training industry and are a much needed reality check for those who are about to invest large amounts of cash in their future.
The integrated way might well have been sucsesfull for Whybeflier but before embarking on the integrated course and the debts that go with it you have to be realistic about the way you are going to repay those debts, take a very good look at any contract and be sure that you have a real job at the end of the course, NOT some contract that ties you to an agency that may or may not offer you enough work ensure that you can meet your debts.
Last edited by A and C; 11th Mar 2013 at 16:13.
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If you can point out where I condoned the price tag, the airlines behaviour ( which is deplorable) or being bound to a contract agency I will happily remove those parts or apologise for the statements.
I said if you are going to train - go integrated.
I find this place has as many opinions as there are posters. It makes deciding difficult. The tone is extremely negative (though realistic) however that won't be helpful during training should one decide to go ahead.
My main point was that CTC trainees are not rich kids.
I'll add that if I said what I thought of CTC and some of the 'directors' there I'd probably be banned. It'd be full of 4 letter words. Not nice ones.
From no where we were bent firmly over a barrel.
Perhaps re-read my post then re-read yours.
I said if you are going to train - go integrated.
I find this place has as many opinions as there are posters. It makes deciding difficult. The tone is extremely negative (though realistic) however that won't be helpful during training should one decide to go ahead.
My main point was that CTC trainees are not rich kids.
I'll add that if I said what I thought of CTC and some of the 'directors' there I'd probably be banned. It'd be full of 4 letter words. Not nice ones.
From no where we were bent firmly over a barrel.
Perhaps re-read my post then re-read yours.
Last edited by WhyByFlier; 11th Mar 2013 at 13:32.
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Whybeflier
I have taken a second look at your post and have amended my reply as a more careful re-read indicates that the content and tone are not quite the same.
You are quite correct in pointing out that the CTC cadets are not rich kids......well not at the end of the course!
I am not sure which way to read the bit about being bent over a barrel, but I think you intended to say that you consider the management had a firm grip of your testicles from day one ! Please correct me if I have misinterpreted you.
As you have no doubt I am not a supporter of the way some company's are using the integrated system to in effect bond people by getting them into large amounts of debt and then limiting their income. No one should start a career with the uncertainty of how they are going to service that much debt.
I have no issues with the actual flying training but the quality issues that the integrated training providers use to justify their practices are pure rubbish, the real reason that these people don't like the modular system is that it fails to fit their profit model.
Unfortunately the advantages that those who have had another career and decide to go along the modular route are very difficult to quantify and are unlikely to show until the person is no longer under line training, only when it comes to the command upgrade will the wider aviation education become a real advantage.
You are quite correct in pointing out that the CTC cadets are not rich kids......well not at the end of the course!
I am not sure which way to read the bit about being bent over a barrel, but I think you intended to say that you consider the management had a firm grip of your testicles from day one ! Please correct me if I have misinterpreted you.
As you have no doubt I am not a supporter of the way some company's are using the integrated system to in effect bond people by getting them into large amounts of debt and then limiting their income. No one should start a career with the uncertainty of how they are going to service that much debt.
I have no issues with the actual flying training but the quality issues that the integrated training providers use to justify their practices are pure rubbish, the real reason that these people don't like the modular system is that it fails to fit their profit model.
Unfortunately the advantages that those who have had another career and decide to go along the modular route are very difficult to quantify and are unlikely to show until the person is no longer under line training, only when it comes to the command upgrade will the wider aviation education become a real advantage.
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over a barrel - Idioms - by the Free Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
That is what I meant by being bent over a barrel.
To quash another myth - plenty of CTC integrated cadets had previous careers and most are older than 19 - off the top of my head there was a doctor, a lawyer, engineers, estate agents, military officers, police officers, Architects, bankers, sales people, rampys, red caps, IT consultants, Air Traffic Controllers and so on.
I'd say 80% had degrees.
On my course the age range was 22-32.
As I understand it the people who have subsequently joined up, knowing that flexicrew would be the way forward and without unsecured borrowing are generally younger and have a less varied background.
The purpose of my posting really is to cut the emotion from some people's post. Certain 'adjectives' are surplus to requirements.
Anyway, join this at your own risk. You know how it is now. If you do decide to join up remember what CTC took such great pleasure in telling us - don't blame and don't complain.
And as a captain taught me on my very first day released to line - if in doubt, there's no doubt.
That is what I meant by being bent over a barrel.
To quash another myth - plenty of CTC integrated cadets had previous careers and most are older than 19 - off the top of my head there was a doctor, a lawyer, engineers, estate agents, military officers, police officers, Architects, bankers, sales people, rampys, red caps, IT consultants, Air Traffic Controllers and so on.
I'd say 80% had degrees.
On my course the age range was 22-32.
As I understand it the people who have subsequently joined up, knowing that flexicrew would be the way forward and without unsecured borrowing are generally younger and have a less varied background.
The purpose of my posting really is to cut the emotion from some people's post. Certain 'adjectives' are surplus to requirements.
Anyway, join this at your own risk. You know how it is now. If you do decide to join up remember what CTC took such great pleasure in telling us - don't blame and don't complain.
And as a captain taught me on my very first day released to line - if in doubt, there's no doubt.
Last edited by WhyByFlier; 11th Mar 2013 at 18:58.
