EasyJet to create 330 pilot jobs
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"Ryanair is worse but as I understand the take home pay isn't terrible (don't quote me)."
And there in lies a rub: For far too long, glossy eyed wannabees have looked at SALARY ALONE as a marker.
I am in the fortunate position that:
1) I have never paid for ratings;
2) I graduated in 2000;
3) I am now a Captain and;
4) I am no longer in airlines, but in the best side of corporate flying.
However, consider this. I recently saw a friend of mine who works for Ryanair. He has been there 11 or so years, Ryanair employee, LTC at a main base.
He earned £119,000 last year for 900 hours of constant stress and hassle, plus unpaid duties. There is absolutely no healthcare, loss of licence, death in service or very importantly pension.
I worked 350 hours last year and earned £123,240. Plus 15% employer pension contributions and a full package of benefits. We had to push our employer to give us a really good package, but they did because they realise we are key to keeping people safe and doing a good job when called upon to do so. That package is all worth at least £30,000 on top of the BASIC....
It is such a shame that we seem to be blinded by bare numbers, salary or hourly rates - call it what you will.
The career (if it can be called that) used to be a senior role and respected as such. Now, it seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy that we are going to cannibalise ourselves in the race to the bottom.
It always used to be a long term game, involving perhaps 20 years to Command in good airlines. Now, it is a headlong rush to becoming an FO on an A320 with 200 hours, with a Command at exactly 3000 hours.
Sod the future, as long as I have 4 bars and can drive a Porsche to work. I don't need a pension.......
.......that's the future - and the quality of the decision making we are recruiting into the business. It makes me very, very concerned.
And there in lies a rub: For far too long, glossy eyed wannabees have looked at SALARY ALONE as a marker.
I am in the fortunate position that:
1) I have never paid for ratings;
2) I graduated in 2000;
3) I am now a Captain and;
4) I am no longer in airlines, but in the best side of corporate flying.
However, consider this. I recently saw a friend of mine who works for Ryanair. He has been there 11 or so years, Ryanair employee, LTC at a main base.
He earned £119,000 last year for 900 hours of constant stress and hassle, plus unpaid duties. There is absolutely no healthcare, loss of licence, death in service or very importantly pension.
I worked 350 hours last year and earned £123,240. Plus 15% employer pension contributions and a full package of benefits. We had to push our employer to give us a really good package, but they did because they realise we are key to keeping people safe and doing a good job when called upon to do so. That package is all worth at least £30,000 on top of the BASIC....
It is such a shame that we seem to be blinded by bare numbers, salary or hourly rates - call it what you will.
The career (if it can be called that) used to be a senior role and respected as such. Now, it seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy that we are going to cannibalise ourselves in the race to the bottom.
It always used to be a long term game, involving perhaps 20 years to Command in good airlines. Now, it is a headlong rush to becoming an FO on an A320 with 200 hours, with a Command at exactly 3000 hours.
Sod the future, as long as I have 4 bars and can drive a Porsche to work. I don't need a pension.......
.......that's the future - and the quality of the decision making we are recruiting into the business. It makes me very, very concerned.
Last edited by Narrow Runway; 19th Feb 2013 at 11:19.
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Beaufort Potato Man + Penko
BPM: I bet you drive a 10 year old vintage Ford, like I do :-)
Penko: Miraculously, I saw this job on Flight Global quite a while ago. Keep your eyes peeled. Amongst the sh1te is the rare gem.
Penko: Miraculously, I saw this job on Flight Global quite a while ago. Keep your eyes peeled. Amongst the sh1te is the rare gem.
Last edited by Narrow Runway; 19th Feb 2013 at 21:00.
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After 5 months of waiting I received an email response from the CAA:
"The safety of all UK operators is taken very seriously by the CAA, and we have worked with industry to ensure that operators properly manage the use of contract pilots.
The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO).
UK operator's Flight Time Limitations (FTL) schemes, are approved by the CAA and the monitoring of crew fatigue reporting trends also forms part of the CAA's routine oversight. As you may be aware, EASA-wide regulations on FTL are currently being developed. We are very much aware of the FAA’s new rules which, although they differ from EASA’s proposals on certain aspects, both have a similar approach, are based on scientific data, and achieve comparable levels of protection."
Just wondering what the "similar approach" was between FAA and EASA rules???
FAA decreasing FTL and EASA increasing!
The main crux of my email to them was why are we happy to continue with flexicrew/p2f when the FAA are increasing their ATP requirements to 1500 hours, with a little FTL thrown in.
"The safety of all UK operators is taken very seriously by the CAA, and we have worked with industry to ensure that operators properly manage the use of contract pilots.
The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO).
UK operator's Flight Time Limitations (FTL) schemes, are approved by the CAA and the monitoring of crew fatigue reporting trends also forms part of the CAA's routine oversight. As you may be aware, EASA-wide regulations on FTL are currently being developed. We are very much aware of the FAA’s new rules which, although they differ from EASA’s proposals on certain aspects, both have a similar approach, are based on scientific data, and achieve comparable levels of protection."
Just wondering what the "similar approach" was between FAA and EASA rules???
FAA decreasing FTL and EASA increasing!
The main crux of my email to them was why are we happy to continue with flexicrew/p2f when the FAA are increasing their ATP requirements to 1500 hours, with a little FTL thrown in.
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You're all wasting your breath. There is only one thing companies take notice of, and that is people making a stance by using their feet. Either stamping them hard or walking away.
When people start leaving or striking and they can't meet the schedule they will change. In the mean time business as usual.
The other thing is people aren't prepared to wait. I want to be an airline pilot and I want it now. They throw cash in huge sums at a problem and think it will open doors, but market forces or greater than any one individual.
Me, I went a modular route and bided my time. Still made a few wrong decisions, but now home, happy and left seat.
When people start leaving or striking and they can't meet the schedule they will change. In the mean time business as usual.
The other thing is people aren't prepared to wait. I want to be an airline pilot and I want it now. They throw cash in huge sums at a problem and think it will open doors, but market forces or greater than any one individual.
Me, I went a modular route and bided my time. Still made a few wrong decisions, but now home, happy and left seat.
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Obviously the company line. They must have had a lot of inquiries about flexicrew and P2F.
When I didn't get a response for 5 months I emailed CHIRP with a copy of the email I sent to the CAA. They took it much more seriously and are including it in other emails which are to be included in a report at the Air Transport Advisory Board. It seems representatives at CHIRP have much higher regard for the safety of our industry.
When I didn't get a response for 5 months I emailed CHIRP with a copy of the email I sent to the CAA. They took it much more seriously and are including it in other emails which are to be included in a report at the Air Transport Advisory Board. It seems representatives at CHIRP have much higher regard for the safety of our industry.
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The CAA couldn't really give a toss. There is no similar approach, the FAA have stamped it out, the CAA have not. That's chalk & cheese in my book.
Also, based on that emailed response, nothing will change because ASR levels have not increased. The only difference now is that instead of having a nice day out, the skippers workloads have increased which is keeping the said ASR levels where they are. Does this make the flightdeck a safe environment? What do I know.
Also, based on that emailed response, nothing will change because ASR levels have not increased. The only difference now is that instead of having a nice day out, the skippers workloads have increased which is keeping the said ASR levels where they are. Does this make the flightdeck a safe environment? What do I know.
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As has been said before our regulator regulates the very companies that maintain it's existence through licensing and other fees. Aviation isn't the only British industry to suffer from this fate but there you go, capitalism at it's finest. The same thing happens in the third world but we have a different name for the practice 
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Guys,
I'm glad I found this thread and have read it through.
My current situation is I am 33 and have wanted to be a pilot for years but without the cash to pay for it. I now have a successful business and there is an option to sell up to follow my dream.
I recently found the CTC programmes and have been in touch with them regarding their Cadet route. Now, reading this thread seems to shed light on a totally different side of these courses to what they make you think.
I was originally told, a few years ago (I think by someone at Oxford) that airlines prefer integrated pilots over modular and to be honest, I believed this.
I'm very lucky to live within 5 minutes of Staverton (Gloucestershire) Airport which is one of the top, GA airports in England and has some good schools.
So my question would be aimed more to experienced pilots, how many of you came through the modular route? Can anyone 'speak' for their airline on what they prefer in the way of training routes? It would certainly be much cheaper to go modular.
I really don't like what I'm reading about the EJ cadet route and with one young child, and another on the way, the loan repayments now look like they would be an issue. The EJ website makes it all look very nice and well rewarded but now I'm really not sure.
This whole thread has been an eye opener...
I'm glad I found this thread and have read it through.
My current situation is I am 33 and have wanted to be a pilot for years but without the cash to pay for it. I now have a successful business and there is an option to sell up to follow my dream.
I recently found the CTC programmes and have been in touch with them regarding their Cadet route. Now, reading this thread seems to shed light on a totally different side of these courses to what they make you think.
I was originally told, a few years ago (I think by someone at Oxford) that airlines prefer integrated pilots over modular and to be honest, I believed this.
I'm very lucky to live within 5 minutes of Staverton (Gloucestershire) Airport which is one of the top, GA airports in England and has some good schools.
So my question would be aimed more to experienced pilots, how many of you came through the modular route? Can anyone 'speak' for their airline on what they prefer in the way of training routes? It would certainly be much cheaper to go modular.
I really don't like what I'm reading about the EJ cadet route and with one young child, and another on the way, the loan repayments now look like they would be an issue. The EJ website makes it all look very nice and well rewarded but now I'm really not sure.
This whole thread has been an eye opener...
Traditionally people used to do their PPL, Flying Instructors Rating, or was it AFI first, spent years as an instructor and then CPL, fly turbo props and finally get in a Jet.
It used to take years, with long hours and low pay. But now there is the option of walking off the street and, eventually, into the flight deck of an Airbus.
Do people expect not to pay for that? So many moan and groan about the cost and the loan repayments. Do you really expect it for free? Can anyone of the old school estimate the cost of the traditional route before this 100K route came along?
Nobody holds a gun to anyones head on this. ALL airlines do it, not just EJ.
I'm not saying its right or that the costs are reasonable and representative but at the end of 5-7 years whatever it is, you have a lot of experience in a jet cockpit. I suspect it is the same time period and cost of the traditional route!!
It used to take years, with long hours and low pay. But now there is the option of walking off the street and, eventually, into the flight deck of an Airbus.
Do people expect not to pay for that? So many moan and groan about the cost and the loan repayments. Do you really expect it for free? Can anyone of the old school estimate the cost of the traditional route before this 100K route came along?
Nobody holds a gun to anyones head on this. ALL airlines do it, not just EJ.
I'm not saying its right or that the costs are reasonable and representative but at the end of 5-7 years whatever it is, you have a lot of experience in a jet cockpit. I suspect it is the same time period and cost of the traditional route!!
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Birdman look under the other threads like the wannabes I presently work for the Orange Airline Most days I listen to the fo telling how desperate they are no money sleeping on friends floors some have gone bankrupt. If you would like to pm I will give you as much advise as I can. Unbiased just facts
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Thanks.
I've looked through a lot of threads but this one really made me think is it really worth the risk? I deliberately Googled for PPrune EasyJet as I knew I'd find good honest info here.
The schools make it sound like they are the only way you'll get a job in Aviation and I was being sucked that way slightly.
Even if I sold my business, there would be living costs both for myself and my partner and kids so we'd still be borrowing money to do this. My business sale, if achieved, wouldn't cover the cost of the training.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind who I worked for to an extent, I just want to fly, it's what's love doing.
I've looked through a lot of threads but this one really made me think is it really worth the risk? I deliberately Googled for PPrune EasyJet as I knew I'd find good honest info here.
The schools make it sound like they are the only way you'll get a job in Aviation and I was being sucked that way slightly.
Even if I sold my business, there would be living costs both for myself and my partner and kids so we'd still be borrowing money to do this. My business sale, if achieved, wouldn't cover the cost of the training.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind who I worked for to an extent, I just want to fly, it's what's love doing.
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Now I have a response from my local MP! He sent me the letter he received from the minister for transport and guess what, it was an exact copy of the "party line" I got from the CAA!
"The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO)."
He'd obviously just passed my concerns straight to the CAA for their response. Complete cop out
"The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO)."
He'd obviously just passed my concerns straight to the CAA for their response. Complete cop out
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Kick the tires
As one of the old sods who got my ATPL the old way I will take a guess at a total cost of around £30k at 1985 prices.
The great advantage of the old system was that you could hold down a job while doing the training and you had 700 hours of flying behind you when you got to the airliner cockpit.
With my usual sense of timing my CPL/IR was issued on the day Air Europe went bust ! But having a full time job just resulted in me continuing to instruct part time at a flying club until an airline job showed up two years later.
Also I have five airliner type ratings that I never paid a penny for but the airline did require a two year training bond for these type ratings. At the time a lot of plots considered training bonds to be the work of the devil and an illegal restraint of trade, I bet the guys working for flexicrew would bite my hand off for such a deal !
As I was finishing off the CPL the writing was already on the wall for the free type rating with the training bond as a few of the rich kids passing through the system where already offering to buy a type rating in exchange for a job, as you all now know to your considerable cost it did not take very long for the bean counters to get wise to the money that could be made from the rich kids parents.
The great advantage of the old system was that you could hold down a job while doing the training and you had 700 hours of flying behind you when you got to the airliner cockpit.
With my usual sense of timing my CPL/IR was issued on the day Air Europe went bust ! But having a full time job just resulted in me continuing to instruct part time at a flying club until an airline job showed up two years later.
Also I have five airliner type ratings that I never paid a penny for but the airline did require a two year training bond for these type ratings. At the time a lot of plots considered training bonds to be the work of the devil and an illegal restraint of trade, I bet the guys working for flexicrew would bite my hand off for such a deal !
As I was finishing off the CPL the writing was already on the wall for the free type rating with the training bond as a few of the rich kids passing through the system where already offering to buy a type rating in exchange for a job, as you all now know to your considerable cost it did not take very long for the bean counters to get wise to the money that could be made from the rich kids parents.
Last edited by A and C; 10th Mar 2013 at 10:14.
Birdman, after 45 years in the aviation business I hope I can pass on some thoughts. Both my sons expressed some interest in commercial aviation, but nowadays, I am so pleased that they decided not to go down that route. It is vital with your responsibilities that you explore all the avenues open to you but really understand what you are getting into. Do you want to fly or do you want to fly commercially - there is a difference. If the former, with a successful business, and living close to Staverton, a beautiful area, possibly a PPL and club flying may be a safer option for you
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I have never seen commercial aviation as a hobby or fun job, it is an office like any other where you are paid to perform a task for the financial benefit of the employer. If everybody had the same idea the career would be all the better for it.
Now if you want to talk about the best office window, then there is no better worldwide
As kriskross said there is more fun to be had elsewhere.
Now if you want to talk about the best office window, then there is no better worldwide
As kriskross said there is more fun to be had elsewhere.
Last edited by Deep and fast; 10th Mar 2013 at 13:32.