Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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In essence I think you're right but sadly please check the facts. Mixed fleet crew are on different job descriptions/roles/contracts. Therefore looked upon as a separate entity so are able to be recruited whist others not.
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As a "new joiner" from 'Terminal 1' I haven't had the delight of experiencing the New world over at T5 for very long, but have been in the industry for a while & have the benefit of witnessing the 'shake up' at BA from an outsider's position.
Now, I don't know the true financial position that they were in, but having been hoodwinked several times over at T1 by a management team I would describe as 'bully boys', (rather than the one here at T5 who I would describe as very capable, but has the option of turning nasty if required to do so) I would, if the occasion presented itself again not be inclined to help the management to do their dirty work for them as happened in the descriptions above. I say this without any animosity to either the cabin crew who felt that they had a grievance, nor to the pilots who I suspect did what they did for what they considered the best of reasons (airline about to go bust).
Some may think that this is thread creep, but considering the pain that the staff at IB are about to endure, they will (hopefully) have a good future ahead of them if it can be handled correctly.
The management will (maybe already are) trying to pit one group of employees against the other. I would resist the temptation to do this, but every employee group also has to demonstrate that they are willing to adapt to the new market conditions.
I have to say that reading this (and other threads concerning the previous industrial strife at BA) cause me to look back at my childhood. I remember the 3 day week, power cuts, pictures of Arthur Scargill on the telly every evening ranting about bringing the government down. I frankly cannot believe some of the attitudes displayed by some on this thread who almost delight in the disruption caused by their intransigence. They really do belong in the 1970s. I don't for one minute believe that you shouldn't try to maintain Ts & Cs hard won as much as possible, but, considering the current financial mess that the country is in (and this is an honest question) what has been given up by the 'legacy' CC in the last 10 years?
I can confirm to those doubters that the pilots have been continually chipped away at wrt their Ts & Cs (and continue to do so)..I know, I am proof of that. This is the reality of the modern private company.
I have night-stopped in a few destinations since being over at T5 so far; without exception I have never sat in a bar/cafe etc with any CC. This is a completely alien concept to me and if you ask anyone - pilots or cabin crew over from bmi - what on earth happened to any sort of camaraderie between the crews? (and before anybody says "the strike" I am reliably informed that it was no different before the Industrial Action) Therein could lie the answer as to why nobody felt any alleigance toward the other when WW came-a-knocking wielding the axe..?
Anyway, I'm sure that a CRM course or two will fix all that!
....And another thing. Those bag tags...(only had them pointed out to me the other day- not interested.) It's bullsh*t. Lose them. Grow up.
So for anyone at IB; work towards change - influence your union to do the right thing; you know what that is better than anyone from outside. Don't accept everything that the management will tell you but have one eye out of the window as to what is going on in the world. There's no comfort to be had by making a futile stand & going bust.
Above all, good luck.
Now, I don't know the true financial position that they were in, but having been hoodwinked several times over at T1 by a management team I would describe as 'bully boys', (rather than the one here at T5 who I would describe as very capable, but has the option of turning nasty if required to do so) I would, if the occasion presented itself again not be inclined to help the management to do their dirty work for them as happened in the descriptions above. I say this without any animosity to either the cabin crew who felt that they had a grievance, nor to the pilots who I suspect did what they did for what they considered the best of reasons (airline about to go bust).
Some may think that this is thread creep, but considering the pain that the staff at IB are about to endure, they will (hopefully) have a good future ahead of them if it can be handled correctly.
The management will (maybe already are) trying to pit one group of employees against the other. I would resist the temptation to do this, but every employee group also has to demonstrate that they are willing to adapt to the new market conditions.
I have to say that reading this (and other threads concerning the previous industrial strife at BA) cause me to look back at my childhood. I remember the 3 day week, power cuts, pictures of Arthur Scargill on the telly every evening ranting about bringing the government down. I frankly cannot believe some of the attitudes displayed by some on this thread who almost delight in the disruption caused by their intransigence. They really do belong in the 1970s. I don't for one minute believe that you shouldn't try to maintain Ts & Cs hard won as much as possible, but, considering the current financial mess that the country is in (and this is an honest question) what has been given up by the 'legacy' CC in the last 10 years?
I can confirm to those doubters that the pilots have been continually chipped away at wrt their Ts & Cs (and continue to do so)..I know, I am proof of that. This is the reality of the modern private company.
I have night-stopped in a few destinations since being over at T5 so far; without exception I have never sat in a bar/cafe etc with any CC. This is a completely alien concept to me and if you ask anyone - pilots or cabin crew over from bmi - what on earth happened to any sort of camaraderie between the crews? (and before anybody says "the strike" I am reliably informed that it was no different before the Industrial Action) Therein could lie the answer as to why nobody felt any alleigance toward the other when WW came-a-knocking wielding the axe..?
Anyway, I'm sure that a CRM course or two will fix all that!
....And another thing. Those bag tags...(only had them pointed out to me the other day- not interested.) It's bullsh*t. Lose them. Grow up.
So for anyone at IB; work towards change - influence your union to do the right thing; you know what that is better than anyone from outside. Don't accept everything that the management will tell you but have one eye out of the window as to what is going on in the world. There's no comfort to be had by making a futile stand & going bust.
Above all, good luck.
Last edited by skip.rat; 8th Jan 2013 at 11:56.
Wonker,
You need to change your lawyer.
The law does not work like that and never has done. I speak as one with, unfortunately, a lot of experience
Ask a sensible Unite National Official. By sensible, I mean one not involved in Aviation.
You need to change your lawyer.
The law does not work like that and never has done. I speak as one with, unfortunately, a lot of experience
Ask a sensible Unite National Official. By sensible, I mean one not involved in Aviation.
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I am reliably informed that it was no different before the Industrial Action
Can you believe about 100 cabin crew joined them on their protest march to Waterside in March 2008 and then about 50 of us had a pub crawl afterwards.
BBC NEWS | Business | BA pilots march in airline row
I'll never forget one captain who became a vol during the cc dispute saying "if it happens to us it'll happen to you, it's imperative we stick together". Oh happy days!
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 8th Jan 2013 at 20:56.
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Another response from the rose-tinted world of WWW. BA cabin crew have been slam-clickers par excellence for years, generally only leaving their rooms to spend money on more fake designer tat at whichever local market suits. When the militants announced they were no longer going to socialise with 'flight deck' there were just two typical pilot responses: 'Good', and 'How wil we tell the difference?'. And if you think they're bad on short haul skip.rat, wait until you see long haul!
skip.rat
I hate to disagree with WW yet again but from a Long Haul POV I reckon the significant number that socialised with the Flight Crew before the IA are generally still doing so....then again I've been around the company long enough to have a history of sharing diet cokes with many of our CSD's and Pursers when they were stewards and stewardesses so perhaps personal history is more persuasive than propaganda.
On the very few occasions I have detected a reluctance to socialise there's often been an overt (but generally "legal") display of union membership by one or two crew members right from the "get go". Coincidence?
My personal experience is that in Long Haul we still have some very pleasant and capable crew members who are a pleasure to work and socialise with, and that those that don't socialise never did anyway.
I hate to disagree with WW yet again but from a Long Haul POV I reckon the significant number that socialised with the Flight Crew before the IA are generally still doing so....then again I've been around the company long enough to have a history of sharing diet cokes with many of our CSD's and Pursers when they were stewards and stewardesses so perhaps personal history is more persuasive than propaganda.
On the very few occasions I have detected a reluctance to socialise there's often been an overt (but generally "legal") display of union membership by one or two crew members right from the "get go". Coincidence?
My personal experience is that in Long Haul we still have some very pleasant and capable crew members who are a pleasure to work and socialise with, and that those that don't socialise never did anyway.
Last edited by wiggy; 9th Jan 2013 at 07:41.
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It will be interesting to see if Walsh is able to split the Iberia pilots and cabin crew, or whether they stick together and support each other. Walsh's tactics are now well rehearsed. Capitalise on poor market conditions, spike in oil prices or other "turbulence" to threaten your workforce that their jobs are at risk, unless they make major concessions. Even if your airline has made a fantastic profit the year before, show a record loss the following year and then sell that to a gullible workforce, as evidence that these reforms are necessary to save the airline. Those employees who do swallow the pill, get them to act as your foot soldiers by enlisting them to ridicule other employee groups who hold out, and even act as strike breakers.
I was surprised how easy it was to turn BA's pilots against the cabin crew. Just £13m worth of share options was enough to do it, at a time when the company was supposed to be hard up. It is going to be a long time before those shares are worth more than the paper they are written on.
Over the years, BA invested a lot of money in programmes such as Putting People First amongst others so numerous I have forgotten them. Then along comes a CEO who turns all that corporate psychology on its head, and sets employee against employee. Who was right? Having a happy workforce all pulling together, or one that is split with an embedded loathing of each other. You only have to witness posts by Handsolo and others here, to see the legacy of Walsh. A destructive and divisive CEO, who has failed the shareholders of BA and now IAG. One dividend in ten years and a share price on life support thanks to BANKIA.
Taxi!
I was surprised how easy it was to turn BA's pilots against the cabin crew. Just £13m worth of share options was enough to do it, at a time when the company was supposed to be hard up. It is going to be a long time before those shares are worth more than the paper they are written on.
Over the years, BA invested a lot of money in programmes such as Putting People First amongst others so numerous I have forgotten them. Then along comes a CEO who turns all that corporate psychology on its head, and sets employee against employee. Who was right? Having a happy workforce all pulling together, or one that is split with an embedded loathing of each other. You only have to witness posts by Handsolo and others here, to see the legacy of Walsh. A destructive and divisive CEO, who has failed the shareholders of BA and now IAG. One dividend in ten years and a share price on life support thanks to BANKIA.
Taxi!
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 9th Jan 2013 at 15:17.
Junior trash
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Who was right? Having a happy workforce all pulling together
Ironically the 'happiest' pullinf together atmosphere I can recall at work (excluding mixed fleet) was when the grumpiest bits of grumpy fleet were in self enforced exile at Bedfont.
Last edited by Hotel Mode; 9th Jan 2013 at 16:03.
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I was surprised how easy it was to turn BA's pilots against the cabin crew. Just £13m worth of share options was enough to do it, at a time when the company was supposed to be hard up. It is going to be a long time before those shares are worth more than the paper they are written on.
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It will be interesting to see if Walsh is able to split the Iberia pilots and cabin crew, or whether they stick together and support each other. Walsh's tactics are now well rehearsed. Capitalise on poor market conditions, spike in oil prices or other "turbulence" to threaten your workforce that their jobs are at risk, unless they make major concessions. Even if your airline has made a fantastic profit the year before, show a record loss the following year and then sell that to a gullible workforce, as evidence that these reforms are necessary to save the airline. Those employees who do swallow the pill, get them to act as your foot soldiers by enlisting them to ridicule other employee groups who hold out, and even act as strike breakers.
I was surprised how easy it was to turn BA's pilots against the cabin crew. Just £13m worth of share options was enough to do it, at a time when the company was supposed to be hard up. It is going to be a long time before those shares are worth more than the paper they are written on.
Over the years, BA invested a lot of money in programmes such as Putting People First amongst others so numerous I have forgotten them. Then along comes a CEO who turns all that corporate psychology on its head, and sets employee against employee. Who was right? Having a happy workforce all pulling together, or one that is split with an embedded loathing of each other. You only have to witness posts by Handsolo and others here, to see the legacy of Walsh. A destructive and divisive CEO, who has failed the shareholders of BA and now IAG. One dividend in ten years and a share price on life support thanks to BANKIA.
Taxi!
I was surprised how easy it was to turn BA's pilots against the cabin crew. Just £13m worth of share options was enough to do it, at a time when the company was supposed to be hard up. It is going to be a long time before those shares are worth more than the paper they are written on.
Over the years, BA invested a lot of money in programmes such as Putting People First amongst others so numerous I have forgotten them. Then along comes a CEO who turns all that corporate psychology on its head, and sets employee against employee. Who was right? Having a happy workforce all pulling together, or one that is split with an embedded loathing of each other. You only have to witness posts by Handsolo and others here, to see the legacy of Walsh. A destructive and divisive CEO, who has failed the shareholders of BA and now IAG. One dividend in ten years and a share price on life support thanks to BANKIA.
Taxi!
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when the grumpiest bits of grumpy fleet were in self enforced exile at Bedfont.
The atmosphere at Bedfont was amazing, full of the nicest and funnily enough most pro BA crew members - the ones who are a delight to fly with. All present had a spine and were determined not to be a soft target for the bully boys.
Please note IB we stood firm and gained a contractual guarantee on our T&C's for the rest of our career, which was more than what was put on the table at the beginning of the dispute. Correct no promotion, as some have said, but I'm more than happy to see my years out as junior crew on my T&C's.
Stick together and good luck!
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 9th Jan 2013 at 16:59.
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So you're now back to being a striker Wonker - not management or a pilot anymore? It's so hard to keep up with what you do from moment to moment.
Good luck to you all in Iberia, look at how WW dealt with BASSA and don't repeat their errors. Try to remove the emotion and deal with logic, demonising and lying did BASSA no good at all.
Good luck to you all in Iberia, look at how WW dealt with BASSA and don't repeat their errors. Try to remove the emotion and deal with logic, demonising and lying did BASSA no good at all.
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Not only were BA pilots bribed with £13m worth of share options, I say bribed, as you cannot claim to have made cost savings of 20% in some areas, if you are in turn compensated.
In addition to BA flight crew getting this windfall of shares, they were also paid £126 an hour to fly as volunteer cabin crew. Whilst the dispute unfolded, BA pilots were actually profiting out of the situation. If they had not been so handsomely rewarded, perhaps they would not have been so enthusiastic to offer their services?
All BA flight crew have done is kick the can down the road. They had to make more concessions to assimilate BMI pilots, in order to head off BAExpress. That is just on the backburner. This policy of appeasement still has a long way to run for Willie, who knows how to play the BA pilot community being an ex IALPA rep himself. To keep feeding the crocodile in the hope it will eat you last, demonstrates the inherent weakness of their resolve. IMHO BA pilots will never strike to protect their contracts, their conditions will simply be chipped away over the next decade.
For some of the correspondents contributing to this thread, the war against BASSA and Legacy crew has become a religion. Long serving cabin crew are referred to here as "ignorant hordes" by one poster as an example. I am sure Iberia flight crew do not refer to their cabin crew colleagues in the same vein.
The BA cabin crew dispute was very complex and confrontational. There were no share options for cabin crew to make concessions, only for the pilots? Why? Well we know why.
As Aporizzaje says, the costs of the battle are mounting and any victory may seem ultimately Pyhrric. The problem is that Walsh does not have a reverse gear. The Iberia dispute will get ramped up, the goal posts will be moved and if you do not accept the first deal, the next one will be worse. Unfortunately for the CEO of IAG, these tactics are now a busted flush. It's heartening to see that Iberia pilots do have a proper union, rather than the semi-detached version BA flight crew pay a fortune to.
Good luck!
In addition to BA flight crew getting this windfall of shares, they were also paid £126 an hour to fly as volunteer cabin crew. Whilst the dispute unfolded, BA pilots were actually profiting out of the situation. If they had not been so handsomely rewarded, perhaps they would not have been so enthusiastic to offer their services?
All BA flight crew have done is kick the can down the road. They had to make more concessions to assimilate BMI pilots, in order to head off BAExpress. That is just on the backburner. This policy of appeasement still has a long way to run for Willie, who knows how to play the BA pilot community being an ex IALPA rep himself. To keep feeding the crocodile in the hope it will eat you last, demonstrates the inherent weakness of their resolve. IMHO BA pilots will never strike to protect their contracts, their conditions will simply be chipped away over the next decade.
For some of the correspondents contributing to this thread, the war against BASSA and Legacy crew has become a religion. Long serving cabin crew are referred to here as "ignorant hordes" by one poster as an example. I am sure Iberia flight crew do not refer to their cabin crew colleagues in the same vein.
The BA cabin crew dispute was very complex and confrontational. There were no share options for cabin crew to make concessions, only for the pilots? Why? Well we know why.
As Aporizzaje says, the costs of the battle are mounting and any victory may seem ultimately Pyhrric. The problem is that Walsh does not have a reverse gear. The Iberia dispute will get ramped up, the goal posts will be moved and if you do not accept the first deal, the next one will be worse. Unfortunately for the CEO of IAG, these tactics are now a busted flush. It's heartening to see that Iberia pilots do have a proper union, rather than the semi-detached version BA flight crew pay a fortune to.
Good luck!
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 10th Jan 2013 at 12:59.
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The Count, as ever is stretching the truth. No BA pilot has been bribed. Indeed no BA pilot has gained any shares. Nor did any pilot receive anything other than their normal flight and duty pay while acting as VCC.
Much like the aircraft flying circuits during the strikes and the aircraft parked at Cardiff, these allegations of the Count are lies designed to whip up support for an indefensible position.
In truth, rehashing old lies and entrenched positions serves no-one in IB any good. The truth of the matter is that BASSA called a strike after BA reduced crewing levels. Many other things became part of the strike but it started about reduced crewing - guess what those reduced crewing levels are still in place. Also MF now exist and WW and EF are slowly withering on the vine. The only growth ( with the exception of the BMI influx) will be onto MF where T&Cs are massively reduced saving more than £60million a year. So ultimately BASSA did make the savings required - they did it by selling their future.
There are some clear lessons for SEPLA and IB in general, not least of which is not to get into a stupid and un-winnable contest with WW.
Much like the aircraft flying circuits during the strikes and the aircraft parked at Cardiff, these allegations of the Count are lies designed to whip up support for an indefensible position.
In truth, rehashing old lies and entrenched positions serves no-one in IB any good. The truth of the matter is that BASSA called a strike after BA reduced crewing levels. Many other things became part of the strike but it started about reduced crewing - guess what those reduced crewing levels are still in place. Also MF now exist and WW and EF are slowly withering on the vine. The only growth ( with the exception of the BMI influx) will be onto MF where T&Cs are massively reduced saving more than £60million a year. So ultimately BASSA did make the savings required - they did it by selling their future.
There are some clear lessons for SEPLA and IB in general, not least of which is not to get into a stupid and un-winnable contest with WW.
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Juan, are you another pilot suffering from selective memory loss? This is a worrying trend. The reason for the strike was that BA imposed change. There was nothing that could be done to prevent BA starting up a separate fleet if it wanted to, anymore than the pilots could frustrate the start of BAExpress. You lot have learned your lesson hopefully with OpenSkies.
In the end a negotiated and honourable settlement was made that protected Legacy contracts. Better than any deal offered by Walsh - take it or leave it style.
The only problem was that to get to a negotiated settlement, it cost BA a minimum of £200m plus.
In the end a negotiated and honourable settlement was made that protected Legacy contracts. Better than any deal offered by Walsh - take it or leave it style.
The only problem was that to get to a negotiated settlement, it cost BA a minimum of £200m plus.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 9th Jan 2013 at 19:26.
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It seems with the helpful advice offered by BA pilots on this forum to Iberia flight crew, an old adage comes to mind.
With friends like these, who needs enemies.
"The pre-agreement Willie has allready rejected as it is too soft on us involves a 23% cut in pilots salary plus firing 208 pilots plus many other bits and pieces related to scheduling etc..."
Aporrizaje you can see where this is going. Walsh keeps coming back, moving the goalposts, giving union negotiators the dead eye stare and repeating the mantra "I have the right to manage". He tries to make your situation appear hopeless by making unreasonable demands. That is how he made his name as a negotiator with IALPA. Aer Lingus management couldn't cope with his style, so he was invited to "cross the floor".
It is game of brinkmanship to see who blinks first. You have to use the nuclear option, that is the only way tpo stemm the assault on your jobs, pay and conditions.
With friends like these, who needs enemies.
"The pre-agreement Willie has allready rejected as it is too soft on us involves a 23% cut in pilots salary plus firing 208 pilots plus many other bits and pieces related to scheduling etc..."
Aporrizaje you can see where this is going. Walsh keeps coming back, moving the goalposts, giving union negotiators the dead eye stare and repeating the mantra "I have the right to manage". He tries to make your situation appear hopeless by making unreasonable demands. That is how he made his name as a negotiator with IALPA. Aer Lingus management couldn't cope with his style, so he was invited to "cross the floor".
It is game of brinkmanship to see who blinks first. You have to use the nuclear option, that is the only way tpo stemm the assault on your jobs, pay and conditions.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 9th Jan 2013 at 19:42.
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Aporrizaje, I'm sorry to inform you that the majority of your counterparts think of nobody but themselves. They'll stab anybody in the back to retain their cushy salary, pensions etc. - absolutely zero morals whatsoever.
As Count states they were given shares as part of their deal and 'extras' to work as volunteer cabin crew. No doubt the boys from Blighty, given the opportunity, will be packing their sombreros and sun lotion to assist their master.
As Count states they were given shares as part of their deal and 'extras' to work as volunteer cabin crew. No doubt the boys from Blighty, given the opportunity, will be packing their sombreros and sun lotion to assist their master.
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Juan, are you another pilot suffering from selective memory loss? This is a worrying trend. The reason for the strike was that BA imposed change.
In the end a negotiated and honourable settlement was made that protected Legacy contracts. Better than any deal offered by Walsh - take it or leave it style.
The only problem was that to get to a negotiated settlement, it cost BA a minimum of £200m plus.