Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes

[4468]

Aporrizaje

I think we would need rather more information than is provided on your graph. I have no idea what timescales they represent, nor what paypoints/statuses are included??

For example, when was the last time Iberia recruited any pilots? Some of our current Airbus pilots must be amongst the lowest paid of all European majors, (whilst probably being the most productive!) yet two thirds of our pilots are longhaul. What's the breakdown in IB, KLM, LH, AF??

As has been said, we would need to know what productivity those figures represent? Current pilot unit cost per contracted flying hour, is probably the only figure an accountant is likely to be interested in! So what's the answer?

Very good propaganda, but very sketchy in detail! Who are Eurobench?

[hunterboy]

Forgive my obtuseness, but as it was BASSA that called the strike, and the loyal members that withdrew their labour, isn't it their fault that the pax were driven to the competition?

[The Blu Riband]

Every aircraft operated to the minimum legal crewing levels

Every flt departed as planed. No additional cancellations, in fact due to the high report levels of cabin crew many flights were reinstated.
All flights were dispatched with minimum crew, as policy, as no-one knew who would turn up for future flts .

I operated about 6 flts and had 2 pilots as crew in total, a couple of other volunteers, and the rest were BA crew.

a fair number were parked up at various places around the globe

Untrue

not to mention some loaders

Most groundstaff - Unite members - were very much against the cabin crew strike

BA had to charter in numerous companies

But not all simultaneously. And note how easy, and cheap, these leases were.

[The Blu Riband]

All in all a catastrophic PR disaster

By Bassa!

Didn't the proposed Christmas strike dates go down well.

Did Bassa get any sympathy, or positive PR. I remember them looking very foolish at every step.

Think:
Chanting moblike outside the crew hotel when noone was in it
Poorly attended and scarce picket points outside the airport
Stewards in BMW convertibles pictured drinking beer on picket

Not to mention the ballot screw-ups

Or the inability to negotiate, other than to make the offers successively worse

[Wirbelsturm]

All in all a catastrophic PR disaster and a one that will probably remain the most damaging industrial dispute ever in corporate UK plc.

Good to see you are keeping to your definition of the 'healing process'.

Where on earth do you get the above? The public were against your strike, Bedfont was full of militant teachers and the rent-a-crowd from Socialist worker. The only positives the action got came from the socialist worker rag.

Promises were made to the BASSA membership that were never filled, i.e. We'll get your ST back in 5 minutes.

The implementation of cost savings was made due to BASSA falling back on it's pervious dispute winning tactics of screaming 'no, no, no out on strike'. Willie Walsh warned you that he would not accept IA and he didn't. BASSA then proceeded and still attempts to villify everyone and anyone who disagrees with their account of the dispute.

All of the inmposed changes remain in force. WW and EF have their current positions protected but with no advancement, threats of compulsory redundancies and no future recruitment on the current terms and condition. Whilst all the time MF grows in both numbers and experience and equals if not surpases the level of service given by WW on many routes.

Aircraft weren't parked up around the world neither were empty aircraft being flown. Wet leases were taken up to cover the potential loss of SH as those VCC's (certainly NOT 2/3 of the pilot community, more BASSA spin) were moved to LH. Those wet leases were terminated early when it became apparent that thousands of BASSA members stood up to the threatening, bullying behaviour coming from Bedfont and were prepared to run the risk of the childish BASSA lists to work.

My flights included office staff, checkin staff, engineers, loaders, baggage handlers and managers all working as VCC as all could see that the old guard BASSA stance of wanting the same old Union bruvva hood that existed in a 1970's nationalised company just wouldn't work in the current environment.

Everyone in BA has moved on and accepted that change is inevitable. BASSA needed time on the naughty step like the petulant child the organisation really is.

Not that it's any of your business - stick to your association.

Hmmm, touch a nerve there?

[Hand Solo]

Lots of cancellations and ghost flights. Remember the Nassau flight operating out and back empty and fully catered? Funny how all flights departed yet dispute cost £150 million.

No pax but lots of lucrative cargo. Leasing aircraft and rebooking pax costs money. All the key routes operated; JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD, MIA, BOS, SIN, HKG, BKK, CPT, JNB, LOS, etc etc. Now didn't you say the dispute cost £200 million earlier?

Wrong. Transavia, Air Estonia, Astreus, Jet 2, Titan, Viking and Openskies operated on every day of every strike day. Not sure about the cost as I'm not privy to that information - neither are you.

About £10K per day is the price you are looking for, perhaps less if BA get a better rate. And some of the leases were released early due to the high number of flights being operated by BA.

Under draconian UK law picket lines are capped. The maximum allowed on BASSA lines were 6 at Waterside and 12 on all others. All picket lines had that number on at all times with a massive army at Bedfont waiting to replace.

No they didn't! Some of them looked very undermanned when I passed them by, and the LGW one shut up shop and went home entirely! LOL.

Of course - that's why they're returning to Cranebank to learn the basics

The feedback from pax is still good. And lets be honest here, legacy crew have to go back to Cranebank every year to relearn the basics of SEP because they can't get that right on the line (or even in Cranebank in my experience).

[Wirbelsturm]

Remember the LRB on the 777? Or the fire extinguishers entered on landing in the cabin log without a word of the galley oven fire being transmitted to the Captain?

WW never need retraining do they?

[4468]

one that will probably remain the most damaging industrial dispute ever in corporate UK plc.

To be fair to Watersidewonker, I suspect he has pretty much hit the nail on the head here. The only UK dispute I can remember, that even comes close to the level of damage inflicted on the union involved, would be the miners strikes, and the once grand National Union of Mineworkers under dear old Arthur Scargill! From wikipedia:

The NUM took part in three national miners' strikes in 1972, 1974 and 1984-85. Its influence was destroyed by the failure of the 1984-85 strike and by the closing of most of Britain's coal mines; it is now a small union with negligible political power.

There were some clear parallels between the behaviour of BASSA and the NUM! And still are. Whilst the whole world simply gets on with their lives, for some, the bitterness and scars will be taken to their graves. It's a shame for them, but their choice.

In the meantime, I genuinely would like to know more about that graph. Or indeed Eurobench.

[Wirbelsturm]

4468,

You forgot Len McKluskys' crowning glory. The complete destruction of his power vehicle, the Liverpool Docks Union, through IA to death union tactics, ably helped by Derek Hatton.

Not much of a dock workers scene in Liverpool after that little escapade. 'With me to the bitter end and the unemployment office bruvva's'

Old school Union bully boy tactics have no place in our world any more.

[4468]

You are of course correct, and I grew up in a household ruled by the NDLB!

[Count Niemantznarr]

Really the debate about the BA cabin crew dispute and where your sympathies lie, or what version of events you choose to believe, descends down to political beliefs. Pilots are not known as being supporters of the Labour Party. That is why it is so queer that their association would want to be embraced by the 'bruvvahood' via their continued membership of the TUC. A far better place for BALPA and the ideology of its members would be as an associate member of the CBI. They seem to be a square peg in a round hole in the TUC, and as BA BALPA members proved during the cabin crew dispute, they have no sympathy with the tenets of the organisation.

British Airways union defended by TUC boss in row with Balpa | Business | The Guardian

When you have the intransigence and embedded bigotry of the Thatcher mentality as infused through this thread, the two sides are never going to agree. As I have said before, for some on this thread the hatred for BASSA and its members has become an obsessive religion. This in in itself is rather strange, as the portrayal of the union is always on the lines of it being militant like the miners and dockers, but the majority of its membership is female. A point conveniently overlooked by the detractors.

The BA cabin crew dispute has been well and truly talked out over many threads and thousands of posts here on PPRuNE. The bunch of 'attack dog' pilots and the couple of us defending BASSA are never going to agree. However there isn't any real satisfaction for those who gleefully scoff at the outcome for the Legacy crew. To be honest it is almost flattering all the trouble and money that Walsh spent in attempting to dismantle the union. If the purpose was to destroy BASSA and completely neuter its membership, then clearly that did not occur. Make of that what you will.

When the heat is turned on BA flight crew as it surely will do in the near future, as all BALPA has done with recent agreements is buy time, then some of us will sit back and enjoy the show. The clock is ticking.

As Apporizaje has kindly reported back to us, Walsh is running true to form. He is going to see if you have the guts to strike. His psychological tactics of trying to panic you like a spooked herd into taking the first deal, worked well on the BA pilots, but the guys at IB clearly have more at stake and are more united. Perhaps a few share options might sweeten the deal?

[Hand Solo]

Oh dear Count, still trying to portray the cabin crew strike as a class war? Remind how much those CSDs get again?

This in in itself is rather strange, as the portrayal of the union is always on the lines of it being militant like the miners and dockers, but the majority of its membership is female. A point conveniently overlooked by the detractors.

Not overlooked, just totally irrelevant. Unless you have the sexist view that females cannot be militant? Next you'll be telling us they're all single mums! Isn't it peculiar that when the brothers (and sisters) all down tools because they are 30 seconds over their industrial agreement the sisters all leave the aircraft too!

If the purpose was to destroy BASSA and completely neuter its membership, then clearly that did not occur.

Hmmm. So do BA have to ask BASSA to invoke the disruption agreement now, or do they just do it and tell you later? And do they have to invite you to trials, or do they just go ahead without you (here's a clue, read BASSA's latest drivel on the A380). And will we see MF in HKG when the brothers don't want to do it? Oh, we already did.

[Wirbelsturm]

but the majority of its membership is female. A point conveniently overlooked by the detractors.

And what, exactly, has that got to do with anything? Surely the gender of the membership has nothing to do with the decision making of the council of the Union?

gleefully scoff at the outcome for the Legacy crew

Again, poor wording, nobody 'gleefully' scoffs but they do take umbridge when BASSA tries to spin another glorious victory out of a slap down by the company which was broadly supported by those departments who were bothered to actually look at what was happening.

A far better place for BALPA and the ideology of its members would be as associate members of the CBI.

Not really, perhaps the TUC needs to drag itself screaming and kicking into the 21st century and realise that negotiated settlements and close working ties with employers bring about better benefits to the workers than screaming and holding the IA knife to the throats of the employer.

When the heat is turned on BA flight crew as it surely will do in the near future, as all BALPA has done with recent agreements is buy time, then some of us will sit back and enjoy the show. The clock is ticking.

The clock has been ticking for a very long time and the pilots association has been talking to the company for the entire of that time. We know where the forward structure of the airline is going, we know what the projected costs, volitilities and savings are and we will, as we have done in the past, communicate this to all our colleagues and reach an agreement.

To be honest it is almost flattering all the trouble and money that Walsh spent in attempting to dismantle the union.

BA never wanted to dismantle BASSA, that's just a 'war footing' you all made up to garner support. All he wanted was that BASSA agree to savings just like every other department. BASSA wouldn't, their submissions were woefully short of what was required and hence the imposition. That you were warned about a long time in advance.

Walsh is running true to form. He is going to see if you have the guts to strike. His psychological tactics of trying to panic you like a spooked herd into taking the first deal, worked well on the BA pilots, but the guys at IB clearly have more at stake and are more united. Perhaps a few share options might sweeten the deal?

Iberia is losing money rapidly. It need a change. You spout that we were all 'hoodwinked' as the company started making a profit again. Perhaps you should see it from a business point of view that perhaps the savings put forward in the business plan worked. The boil that was the annual strike calling BASSA had been lanced. All other departments had agreed productivity and money saving plans and the whole business could project forward with confidence. This has been borne out with a drop in the cost base leaving only fuel as the primary volitility.

Iberia must do the same. Failure to do so will probably result in an AOC change and the consequential contract changes. Look at Alitalia.

As to Thatcherism didn't we do well after 13 years of the tender mercies of the Labour Government. What a mess they left us in. Welcome to the real world, either you adapt with the times and discuss with your employer or you get left behind. Just like BASSA, with WW and EF now slowly withering. Sad for the individuals in my opinion but directly as a result of the actions of the BASSA council.

[The Blu Riband]

All picket lines had that number on at all times with a massive army at Bedfont waiting to replace.

Really? You have a very poor memory, or are simply a pathological liar!

[Count Niemantznarr]

As the number of pickets was restricted and strikers on them also capped, there were hundreds of crew at Bedfont every day waiting their turn to be shuttled round.

You were not there Blu Riband. Your post shows you up as being an ignoramus-pedant.

[Wirbelsturm]

Blu Riband,

They had a massive army if you include the 'SWP rent-a-crowd'.

[Wirbelsturm]

Goodbye Chocolateracer, your intelligent right wing comments will be missed (not).
Quote:
BA never wanted to dismantle BASSA

What evidence do you have to support that? BA wanted savings from BASSA. BASSA came back with rubbish, over inflated and irrelevant figures that, when scrutinised by PWC, amounted to a real saving of less than 10% of what the company required.

They were told to get it right, the deadline was moved for them constantly until the company said enough is enough and imposed cost savings measures.

That was it, BASSA went into a spin, called ballots that they couldn't get right and demanded that they get all of the imposed conditions lifted. None have been.

It was never about Union busting, that was all made up by you. BASSA still exists, BA don't have to listen to it's drivel any more thank god.

You couldn't even negotiate without getting into a fight in the car park with the other CC union. Grief, and you want to be treated as adults.

[The Blu Riband]

Actually I did visit Bedfont.
It's only a football field!

I walked past 3 times as I was on standby during the first strike and hoped to be doing a lot of flying but was rarely used. I wanted to see for myself how many crew were there and what the feeling was like.

Bassa has some very militant members, and there are also a number of crew with socialist inclinations or backgrounds. But factoring in the socialist rent a crowd students and intellectuals it was really a very poor turn out and on the media the crew interviewed just sounded like bitter and twisted saddos.
The Willie masks and paraphernalia didnt really work.
I was surprised how few pickets there were and appreciate the legal restrictions but the impact was minimal. Maybe from the inside of the 4x4 or the double decker bus it looked more impressive.

Only by accepting the truth and reality can you look forward.

One day the truth will come out about the finances, and dodgy dealings.
Even the constitution needs updating (changing completely)

[Wirbelsturm]

Ahh Wonker, there's only one version of the truth as far as you're concerned isn't there. I recall the scene more like as described above with the good old Redgrave family SWP banners appearing.

So excited? I bet. Still got the champagne on ice for the end of the chess game.

So sad.

Enjoy your irrelevance.

[beerdrinker]

Total thread creep, but please explain to a ROF what the red label thing is all about.