Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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Hmmmmm, with a comprehensive answer like that, I do believe I know who you are, HAND SOLO. Shhhhh, your secret is safe with me. How do you find the time to do all these things?
Just on your point, Aporrizaje, about the comparable wages. It's not just cash in hand that counts, it's also things like pension contributions that come into play. As it has been linked percentage wise the only way to reduce the the whole shabang is to reduce the wages....percentage wise. In any case, it is academic because Easyjet make a lot of money and so they can afford to pay high wages. Believe me, if they didn't make money, they wouldn't be paying those salaries.
In any case, Like HS, I feel for you also because the one truth you have come out with is that your company has been mismanaged for a great number of years now and that is not your fault. Because i am half Spanish I can say this: The whole of Spain is mismanaged. Rajoy has enough problems of his own and WW has a proven record who is not subject to the "Spanish Practices" prevalent in Spanish companies (indeed the whole country). If anyone is going to turn Iberia around, it's a foreign CEO. Rajoy is PP and a Right leaning government can see the wood for the trees where long term survival and sustainability of institutions is concerned; as HS says, a percentage of something or 100% of nothing is your stark choice.
You cannot heal a plant by just cutting off dead leaves, or even dying ones. You have to get to the root of the problem, literally, and then work your way up. In Spain there is this underlying tension between those who work and those who employ. For years now the favour has always swung the workers' way, to such an extent that employers have been strangled. The net effect is that, in the end, no-one has a job, no one has a company and so on and so on......
One last big problem Spain as a whole has, and one which you in IBERIA have taken full advantage of forever, is that of nepotism. You don't have the right people doing the jobs. In the UK and especially BA, nepotism counts for nothing. A senior BA captain (or any employee, for that matter) cannot help his or her family member into BA other than offering a few pointers and, perhaps, therefore offering them an edge when it comes to selection process. But as far as anyone taking into account family ties goes, that's a big no-no here.
Just on your point, Aporrizaje, about the comparable wages. It's not just cash in hand that counts, it's also things like pension contributions that come into play. As it has been linked percentage wise the only way to reduce the the whole shabang is to reduce the wages....percentage wise. In any case, it is academic because Easyjet make a lot of money and so they can afford to pay high wages. Believe me, if they didn't make money, they wouldn't be paying those salaries.
In any case, Like HS, I feel for you also because the one truth you have come out with is that your company has been mismanaged for a great number of years now and that is not your fault. Because i am half Spanish I can say this: The whole of Spain is mismanaged. Rajoy has enough problems of his own and WW has a proven record who is not subject to the "Spanish Practices" prevalent in Spanish companies (indeed the whole country). If anyone is going to turn Iberia around, it's a foreign CEO. Rajoy is PP and a Right leaning government can see the wood for the trees where long term survival and sustainability of institutions is concerned; as HS says, a percentage of something or 100% of nothing is your stark choice.
You cannot heal a plant by just cutting off dead leaves, or even dying ones. You have to get to the root of the problem, literally, and then work your way up. In Spain there is this underlying tension between those who work and those who employ. For years now the favour has always swung the workers' way, to such an extent that employers have been strangled. The net effect is that, in the end, no-one has a job, no one has a company and so on and so on......
One last big problem Spain as a whole has, and one which you in IBERIA have taken full advantage of forever, is that of nepotism. You don't have the right people doing the jobs. In the UK and especially BA, nepotism counts for nothing. A senior BA captain (or any employee, for that matter) cannot help his or her family member into BA other than offering a few pointers and, perhaps, therefore offering them an edge when it comes to selection process. But as far as anyone taking into account family ties goes, that's a big no-no here.
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Watersidewonker....
errr, yeah, perhaps it's because we offer value for money. We go the extra mile and don't go crying to our union every time we overextend our union agreements; we're flexible and always have been and our prime concern after safety is that of the well being and comfort of our passengers and our company. We do not allow them to take the p!ss but in times of disruption we will always be on the coalface doing whatever is necessary to keep the show on the road, especially when it is not the company's fault. Can BASSA and its members say the same?
I'm not saying that they won't have to come after us again, and pensions is up for review soon methinks. What you fail to realise is that unlike BASSA and some of its members, we have been adapting for 12 years now whereas, up until the strike your agreements had changed little. Bassa might still be around but they are a toothless tiger. And if you ask me, for the sake of the vanity of a few BASSA leadership they have destroyed the protection of their members.
errr, yeah, perhaps it's because we offer value for money. We go the extra mile and don't go crying to our union every time we overextend our union agreements; we're flexible and always have been and our prime concern after safety is that of the well being and comfort of our passengers and our company. We do not allow them to take the p!ss but in times of disruption we will always be on the coalface doing whatever is necessary to keep the show on the road, especially when it is not the company's fault. Can BASSA and its members say the same?
I'm not saying that they won't have to come after us again, and pensions is up for review soon methinks. What you fail to realise is that unlike BASSA and some of its members, we have been adapting for 12 years now whereas, up until the strike your agreements had changed little. Bassa might still be around but they are a toothless tiger. And if you ask me, for the sake of the vanity of a few BASSA leadership they have destroyed the protection of their members.
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Crass stupidity by unions is what helps them to achieve a non-union, minimum wage workforce. Look what happened to our cabin crew.
Aporrizaje you'll see some posters on here change their outlook when cost cutting knocks on their door. I believe there's a lot more meat on the bone - BA pilots are still the best rewarded in the Uk and in the top 10 within Europe.
And wonker is still refusing to accept that the vast majority of the VCCs were from his own union UNITE.
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That's why BASSA is still here with 10,000 members
Aporrizaje you'll see some posters on here change their outlook when cost cutting knocks on their door. I believe there's a lot more meat on the bone - BA pilots are still the best rewarded in the Uk and in the top 10 within Europe.
BA have rationalised. Pure and simple. In a mixed environment of SH/LH the pay base is market rate for the operation. If you are truely so obsessed with Pilot's pay then get your licences and have a look from the inside.
IB is only going through what BA has been through. It must make itself more attractive to investors. Madrid has great potential, IB needs to match it. As painful as the transition is it will benefit all in the future.
And wonker is still refusing to accept that the vast majority of the VCCs were from his own union UNITE.
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Pilot Volunteers not sent home
Just a minor correction Wirbelsturm, As a pilot volunteer myself we weren't all sent home, I completed a total of 6 trips during the strike days, 4 long haul and 2 short haul. It is correct that the vast majority of flights were crewed by regular cabin crew - occasionally supplemented by Volunteers from around the airline including pilots.
It is probably true to say that the idea for VCC came from a pilot, the first mention of which came in a posting on the company forum entitled 'Door Operators' a thread that grew rapidly with people volunteering their services.
Watersidewonker should be cautious with his assertions and would be wise to remember it took just 3 days to train a pilot to be a CC member (an extra day if also to be a SCCM) and while operating with significantly fewer CC (8 on a 777 v 11 normally) these crews still managed to attract significantly better GPM scores than the regular crew.
BA's response to BASSA's unreasonable demands had nothing to do with 'Union Busting' regardless of what a poorly researched and badly written paper from a left wing academic may say, BA's response was the necessary steps taken by an well led management team to a very threatening situation. The fact that not only was the training system almost overwhelmed by the sheer number of volunteers from throughout the business but also the number of colleagues who supported the operation by volunteering their assistance in other areas showed that the vast majority of staff from within BA did not support BASSA and it's ridiculous demands.
The lesson here for SELPA is, be careful how you present your case. BASSA lied, misrepresented the situation and harassed it's own members to try and win the war, the result was the desertion of their members in massive numbers and utter defeat. SELPA are trying similar tactics with IBERIA, be warned you are unlikely to carry your membership with you, as with BASSA members, they will see through attempts to mis represent the true situation and you risk becoming as irrelevant to IBERIA as BASSA is to BA today.
It is probably true to say that the idea for VCC came from a pilot, the first mention of which came in a posting on the company forum entitled 'Door Operators' a thread that grew rapidly with people volunteering their services.
Watersidewonker should be cautious with his assertions and would be wise to remember it took just 3 days to train a pilot to be a CC member (an extra day if also to be a SCCM) and while operating with significantly fewer CC (8 on a 777 v 11 normally) these crews still managed to attract significantly better GPM scores than the regular crew.
BA's response to BASSA's unreasonable demands had nothing to do with 'Union Busting' regardless of what a poorly researched and badly written paper from a left wing academic may say, BA's response was the necessary steps taken by an well led management team to a very threatening situation. The fact that not only was the training system almost overwhelmed by the sheer number of volunteers from throughout the business but also the number of colleagues who supported the operation by volunteering their assistance in other areas showed that the vast majority of staff from within BA did not support BASSA and it's ridiculous demands.
The lesson here for SELPA is, be careful how you present your case. BASSA lied, misrepresented the situation and harassed it's own members to try and win the war, the result was the desertion of their members in massive numbers and utter defeat. SELPA are trying similar tactics with IBERIA, be warned you are unlikely to carry your membership with you, as with BASSA members, they will see through attempts to mis represent the true situation and you risk becoming as irrelevant to IBERIA as BASSA is to BA today.
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No amount of wriggling will exonerate the disgraceful behaviour of strikebreaking pilots during the BA cabin crew dispute.
They were conned into believing BA was in a "fight for survival". BALPA were given exclusive access to the "books". What set of books was that? Not the one that showed BA making a profit within two years? Come on lads, face up to it. You were used as pawns in Willies little war against BA's stewardesses.
Also BA flight crew broke Principle 3 of TUC membership, when they accepted a no strike deal for a bribe of share options, reputed to be worth around £20,000 each at current values. The only amusing thing about the bribe is that IAG shares have plummeted since the Iberia merger. Gambled and lost there chaps.
BALPA members seem to be empowered to write volumes about the failings of BASSA, but are strangely silent over their own debacle in which BALPA embroiled itself. OpenSkies. Why BALPA even used the same QC as BASSA - John Hendy!!
As usual with the pilots at BA it is all about money and hypocrisy.
They were conned into believing BA was in a "fight for survival". BALPA were given exclusive access to the "books". What set of books was that? Not the one that showed BA making a profit within two years? Come on lads, face up to it. You were used as pawns in Willies little war against BA's stewardesses.
Also BA flight crew broke Principle 3 of TUC membership, when they accepted a no strike deal for a bribe of share options, reputed to be worth around £20,000 each at current values. The only amusing thing about the bribe is that IAG shares have plummeted since the Iberia merger. Gambled and lost there chaps.
BALPA members seem to be empowered to write volumes about the failings of BASSA, but are strangely silent over their own debacle in which BALPA embroiled itself. OpenSkies. Why BALPA even used the same QC as BASSA - John Hendy!!
As usual with the pilots at BA it is all about money and hypocrisy.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 7th Jan 2013 at 18:39.
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Count/WW whichever you are today...
Very, very old, dusty news. Creeping the thread AGAIN aren't we.
All of the drivel you posted has been seen before, discussed, dissected etc. etc. etc.
The share deal was nothing to do with a 'no strike deal'. We don't live in the 'one out all out' world anymore. It was a deal voted on and sgreed by the pilot workforce. Sorry BASSA wasn't consulted.
This again????? Yawn. 
Done, dusted. PWC know far better than a BASSA monkey.
What war? We were all told to make savings. BASSA wouldn't. You brought it on yourselves. No-one else needed to help the great fool BASSA dig it's own grave.
VolunteerCC, sorry, to correct my previous post I should have added, 'on my flights'. I know a few colleagues who worked alongside all of those BASSA members who turned up to work and the vast amounts of Unite sub branch members from other departments who also turned up to work. Convieniently forgotten by the BASSA bully boys in favour of Pilot bashing as 'we all do the same job'.
Back to the thread.....
Very, very old, dusty news. Creeping the thread AGAIN aren't we.
All of the drivel you posted has been seen before, discussed, dissected etc. etc. etc.
The share deal was nothing to do with a 'no strike deal'. We don't live in the 'one out all out' world anymore. It was a deal voted on and sgreed by the pilot workforce. Sorry BASSA wasn't consulted.
They were conned into believing BA was in a "fight for survival".
Done, dusted. PWC know far better than a BASSA monkey.
Not the one that showed BA making a profit within two years? Come on lads, face up to it. You were used as pawns in Willies little war against BA's stewardesses.
VolunteerCC, sorry, to correct my previous post I should have added, 'on my flights'. I know a few colleagues who worked alongside all of those BASSA members who turned up to work and the vast amounts of Unite sub branch members from other departments who also turned up to work. Convieniently forgotten by the BASSA bully boys in favour of Pilot bashing as 'we all do the same job'.
Back to the thread.....
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I don't think talking/arguing about BASSA/BALPA/BA/OPENSKIES is threadcreep. As I said before, there are many similarities between all these things and SEPLA, if they came down from their precariously lofty position, might learn a thing or two about what it means to take Willy Walsh on.
He has been CEO of two major airlines and is head of a company which owns two. He knows his onions, so when you go into a boardroom with him, you'd better know yours or he will chew you up and spit you out. His mandate is to keep the company of which he is the figurehead alive and, as others have stated, make it a company people want to invest in. That is his job and he does it well whether you like his methods or not. In the end, all I know after having given up many things from the simple cheeseboard to a 4th man on my HKG/GRU and 2 days of leave a year as well as a whole host of other work coverage details too numerous to mention and that have made my life that little bit harder in BA, is that I am working for a company I am almost confident (notwhistanding natural disasters and other external influences) is fit for the next 20 years. If SEPLA want this too (and that is THEIR mandate whether they choose to accept it or not) then they should work on those onions.
On the subject of Openskies. I have no problem talking about it. Actually, looking at it in the cold light of day the "debacle", as you call it, has been an unexpected blessing in disguise. Had we not been through the humiliation of it at the time (from which BALPA learned much, by the way) then we might have gone down the route of facing up to BA on the BMI issue which would have cost us much more dearly in the long run. As it is, we managed to work with BA and get a satisfactory outcome for all concerned. We now do not have an IB.EX equivalent in LHR and BMI are on our terms and conditions.....or at least the latest T&C's available to new entrants.....oh, and did I mention that BA are still recruiting.
lastly, COUGH,
I will answer that question for Count: I can't remember what that deal included because our union didn't publicise, let alone detail the implications of it, very well thus allowing us to make our own minds up. There was little or no attempt to rationalise or explain what the alternatives might be because BASSA didn't really know themselves.
He has been CEO of two major airlines and is head of a company which owns two. He knows his onions, so when you go into a boardroom with him, you'd better know yours or he will chew you up and spit you out. His mandate is to keep the company of which he is the figurehead alive and, as others have stated, make it a company people want to invest in. That is his job and he does it well whether you like his methods or not. In the end, all I know after having given up many things from the simple cheeseboard to a 4th man on my HKG/GRU and 2 days of leave a year as well as a whole host of other work coverage details too numerous to mention and that have made my life that little bit harder in BA, is that I am working for a company I am almost confident (notwhistanding natural disasters and other external influences) is fit for the next 20 years. If SEPLA want this too (and that is THEIR mandate whether they choose to accept it or not) then they should work on those onions.
On the subject of Openskies. I have no problem talking about it. Actually, looking at it in the cold light of day the "debacle", as you call it, has been an unexpected blessing in disguise. Had we not been through the humiliation of it at the time (from which BALPA learned much, by the way) then we might have gone down the route of facing up to BA on the BMI issue which would have cost us much more dearly in the long run. As it is, we managed to work with BA and get a satisfactory outcome for all concerned. We now do not have an IB.EX equivalent in LHR and BMI are on our terms and conditions.....or at least the latest T&C's available to new entrants.....oh, and did I mention that BA are still recruiting.
lastly, COUGH,
I will answer that question for Count: I can't remember what that deal included because our union didn't publicise, let alone detail the implications of it, very well thus allowing us to make our own minds up. There was little or no attempt to rationalise or explain what the alternatives might be because BASSA didn't really know themselves.
Last edited by relightengine; 8th Jan 2013 at 05:09.
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The creeping of the thread has already taken place by BALPA contributors here.
Now Wirbelsturm, what about the share options you were given as part of your no strike deal with BA? I think it was more than £20,000 wasn't it?
For Iberia pilots perusing this thread, look at the comments against the BA cabin crew by posters here and realise that the same will happen to you. I do not doubt for a moment that BA pilots would try and break an Iberia strike. After all, they have form.
Now Wirbelsturm, what about the share options you were given as part of your no strike deal with BA? I think it was more than £20,000 wasn't it?
For Iberia pilots perusing this thread, look at the comments against the BA cabin crew by posters here and realise that the same will happen to you. I do not doubt for a moment that BA pilots would try and break an Iberia strike. After all, they have form.
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Gotta love the Count! A figure of £20000 picked plain out of thin air! Your imagination really is running overtime tonight! I think Iberia pilots reviewing this thread can learn a lot from the Count, mainly how militant resistance to change and the fabrication of elaborate lies about managments goals and intentions leads ultimately to industrial humiliation and irrelevance.
Now Wirbelsturm, what about the share options you were given as part of your no strike deal with BA? I think it was more than £20,000 wasn't it?
Count
I'll stop lurking for a while and cut to the chase - no it wasn't, and no such thing or amount was offered to any other BA BALPA member I know of. You're making it up.
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Message our IB colleagues:
1) BASSA fought for nearly 3 years until Willie was removed (promoted).
2) All those involved are presently on their past Terms & Conditions and remuneration - these are guaranteed for the rest of their career.
3) The company tried to set up a non unionised sub section. This has failed as even under draconian UK law, over 51% demanded Union recognition and the company now has to recognise the mothership of BASSA as their Union.
4) Those who made the right choice during the dispute hold their heads high and have an amazing sense of camaraderie, others hold heads in shame.
5) BASSA met the cost savings targets but the goal posts continually changed rendering it impossible to sell a deal to the membership. Industrial action was Willies preferred way of doing business.
6) Over 5400 out of 9700 eligible individuals claimed strike pay from Unite. Most who went in to work felt threatened, bullied or could not afford the 'permanent' withdrawal of concessions - which was returned in full.
7) Many more shocking events could be stated but are case sensitive pending future legal cases.
Message to IB - there is nothing wrong in using your legal right to withdraw your labour providing all laws are adhered to. Don't listen to the spin on this forum - most have something to gain from your gradual demise and emergence of loco flying ex Spain.
Good luck and stick together x
1) BASSA fought for nearly 3 years until Willie was removed (promoted).
2) All those involved are presently on their past Terms & Conditions and remuneration - these are guaranteed for the rest of their career.
3) The company tried to set up a non unionised sub section. This has failed as even under draconian UK law, over 51% demanded Union recognition and the company now has to recognise the mothership of BASSA as their Union.
4) Those who made the right choice during the dispute hold their heads high and have an amazing sense of camaraderie, others hold heads in shame.
5) BASSA met the cost savings targets but the goal posts continually changed rendering it impossible to sell a deal to the membership. Industrial action was Willies preferred way of doing business.
6) Over 5400 out of 9700 eligible individuals claimed strike pay from Unite. Most who went in to work felt threatened, bullied or could not afford the 'permanent' withdrawal of concessions - which was returned in full.
7) Many more shocking events could be stated but are case sensitive pending future legal cases.
Message to IB - there is nothing wrong in using your legal right to withdraw your labour providing all laws are adhered to. Don't listen to the spin on this forum - most have something to gain from your gradual demise and emergence of loco flying ex Spain.
Good luck and stick together x
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I think Chocoracer that the smugness you display here, will be erased when Willie gets around to BAExpress. Already FPP's are on far inferior terms than the old cadetship.
It is a worry that a pilot like Hand Solo can suffer such memory loss. Perhaps it is selective? And you too Wiggy. Tutt tutt!
"Balpa said that as part of the deal, pilots would receive shares in the company in three years time worth £13m. The cost saving package involves pilots taking a 20pc cut in certain allowances, as well as accepting some changes in operations"
A no strike clause was also included in the deal
Anyone heard this before?
"Chief executive Willie Walsh has warned that BA was facing a fight for survival as he sought agreement on thousands of job cuts and a two year pay freeze as part of drastic measures to save hundreds of millions of pounds." Then the volcano erupted.......BA £1.7bn in cash and a secure line of credit amounting to £5bn.
British Airways 2009/10 Annual Report and Accounts
"Our liquidity position remains strong with £1.7 billion of cash at the end of the year." CEO Keith Williams.
BA pilots agree pay cut to save airline £26m - Telegraph#
The Fight For Survival
Strong BA performance helps IAG back to profit | Business | guardian.co.uk
Comic Section
"Jim McAuslan, general secretary of Balpa, said: "This is an unaccustomed position for a union to be in but we have pressure-tested the company's trading position and cost base and are satisfied that this step is necessary to help BA recover its position as one of the world's most successful airlines."
It is a worry that a pilot like Hand Solo can suffer such memory loss. Perhaps it is selective? And you too Wiggy. Tutt tutt!
"Balpa said that as part of the deal, pilots would receive shares in the company in three years time worth £13m. The cost saving package involves pilots taking a 20pc cut in certain allowances, as well as accepting some changes in operations"
A no strike clause was also included in the deal
Anyone heard this before?
"Chief executive Willie Walsh has warned that BA was facing a fight for survival as he sought agreement on thousands of job cuts and a two year pay freeze as part of drastic measures to save hundreds of millions of pounds." Then the volcano erupted.......BA £1.7bn in cash and a secure line of credit amounting to £5bn.
British Airways 2009/10 Annual Report and Accounts
"Our liquidity position remains strong with £1.7 billion of cash at the end of the year." CEO Keith Williams.
BA pilots agree pay cut to save airline £26m - Telegraph#
The Fight For Survival
Strong BA performance helps IAG back to profit | Business | guardian.co.uk
Comic Section
"Jim McAuslan, general secretary of Balpa, said: "This is an unaccustomed position for a union to be in but we have pressure-tested the company's trading position and cost base and are satisfied that this step is necessary to help BA recover its position as one of the world's most successful airlines."
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 7th Jan 2013 at 23:14.
Count
You, of all people, resorting to using a right wing rag like the Torygraph as a "source".......you really should know better.
I stand by the fact that I and my other BALPA colleagues certainly weren't offered share options of £20,000.
Oh BTW, from a previous post:
Interesting choice of words and gender - have you fallen foul of the dreaded sexual sterotyping? .......
You, of all people, resorting to using a right wing rag like the Torygraph as a "source".......you really should know better.
I stand by the fact that I and my other BALPA colleagues certainly weren't offered share options of £20,000.
Oh BTW, from a previous post:
Come on lads, face up to it. You were used as pawns in Willies little war against BA's stewardesses.
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Chocoracer. BASSA offered one crewmember off of the aircraft and the position of premium Purser to be created. The truth is that there was never going to be a negotiated settlement. The goalposts kept being moved.
Wiggy, go on tell us what your share options are worth? How much were you bought for?
Wiggy, go on tell us what your share options are worth? How much were you bought for?
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actually maybe I was wrong about the threadcreep!
Not religious but I went to a catholic school and this sticks out:
..... there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For any IB pilots reading this, look, the choice is ultimately up to you. No one is for one minute suggesting that you should be prevented from exercising your right to withdraw your labour; all we're saying is that you should make the choice with your eyes wide open and question whether your union is actually working in your long term interests.
Do you want a secure future or do you want to end up like legacy crew at BA with no prospects and a diminishing workforce? Stark choices, my friends so make the most of it while you still can.
Not religious but I went to a catholic school and this sticks out:
..... there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For any IB pilots reading this, look, the choice is ultimately up to you. No one is for one minute suggesting that you should be prevented from exercising your right to withdraw your labour; all we're saying is that you should make the choice with your eyes wide open and question whether your union is actually working in your long term interests.
Do you want a secure future or do you want to end up like legacy crew at BA with no prospects and a diminishing workforce? Stark choices, my friends so make the most of it while you still can.
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Until the compulsory redundancies kicks in that is......
So Chocolateracer 100 lines please:
I must check my facts on employment law and contractual pitfalls before making what appears uneducated statements on PPRUNE
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Mixfleet recruitment would be stopped and this is unthinkable considering the high turnover of staff.
This option must be considered before making any compulsory redundancies.
I must check my facts on employment law and contractual pitfalls before making what appears uneducated statements on PPRuNe
As usual, this is going nowhere.