Hypocritical ?
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"Economic social strata"
30k pa, ford Mondeo driving, Nokia 3210 using box"
"You're a tick"
Tory boy has spoken! In all honesty, I enjoyed your post BlackandBrown. Elequently put. Certainly brought a smile to my face.
30k pa, ford Mondeo driving, Nokia 3210 using box"
"You're a tick"
Tory boy has spoken! In all honesty, I enjoyed your post BlackandBrown. Elequently put. Certainly brought a smile to my face.
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business management degree Wirbelsturm, so mildly educated in the needs of a business in order for it to succeed and prosper.
Hope you don't need it for your day job.
I've got an MBA, so also a little qualified to ascertain that these changes will, at the moment, have little effect on major companies who will continue to use their existing systems.
The 'broad brush' approach used by EASA covers many, many airlines in Europe who do not have the benefit of restrictive FTL operations and thus, for those employees, these regulations are a boon. As with the levelling of any playing field there will be winners and, potentially, losers. Whether the 'looser' restrictions will be adopted by those airline who currently run tighter national regulations remains to be seen. As with all EU regulation this is open to adjustment and change. It is wise however to object to potential changes before the company feels it can introduce them without resistance.
As to the ridiculous 'pilots can do another 100hrs a year' statement, it shows that you need to take the blinkers off you touted degree.
Fatigue is a major issue above and beyond the realms of 'tiredness'. Fatigue is a long term effect which reduces an individuals ability to process, retain and act upon sensory input. Many factors affect fatigue. A few nights out of bed and a few early starts when you are in an office with regular time zones, meal patterns and a standardised biometric pattern will make you tired but not fatigued. Constantly crossing time zones, attempting to sleep outside of you normal rythmn, meals out of synchronisation with both daylight patterns and time patterns all lead up to the onset of fatigue.
In a recent study scientists found that drivers suffering from scientifically derived fatigue performed, in a driving simulator, far worse than those who consumed twice the UK legal drink driving limit of alcohol.
One hull loss can kill a company. Pan Am? The Americans have seen it after Colgan and that's the reason why they have tightened up their FTL's. I feel a major EASA re-write will be up and coming.
Extra 100 hours a year? Perhaps for serving tea and coffee, not for landing a 200+ tonne jet at 180mph.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 2nd Oct 2012 at 10:43.
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BlackandBrown
You absolutely hit the nail on the head. Sick to my 
teeth of managers NOT PILOTS deciding what is safe and what is not safe.
Where will it all end Waterside? A big smoking hole in the ground?
Is that what it will have to take for "ticks" like you to see the light?
teeth of managers NOT PILOTS deciding what is safe and what is not safe.Where will it all end Waterside? A big smoking hole in the ground?
Is that what it will have to take for "ticks" like you to see the light?
Last edited by antonov09; 2nd Oct 2012 at 09:48.
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Just in response to the original post about a little Iberia Express appearing in BA - it has been there for years and is now starting to grow quite significantly. If I was a BA pilot I would be feel pretty threatened by the increasing presence of BA CityFlyer. I cannot see BA short haul in the future in a model other than that of BA CityFlyer and similalrly Iberia short haul will probably end up all in Iberia Express. The cost bases of these airlines are way lower than that of the parent company. Sorry for hijacking the thread though.
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Good point Wirbelsturm, however (sorry)....
Given that we still don't know what form the final limitations will take, and options such as a Judicial review are being discussed, which could slow down the process even further, IAG are a long way off implimenting anything ( and BTW the changes could have a detrimental effect on our cabin crew, but this whole debate seems to have passed them by) .
SEPLA have their own problems close to home at the moment so I somewhat doubt they'll be warmly welcoming a BALPA rep to discuss joint tactics any time soon....in other words Waterside I suspect that if your story is correct "you've been had".
Given that we still don't know what form the final limitations will take, and options such as a Judicial review are being discussed, which could slow down the process even further, IAG are a long way off implimenting anything ( and BTW the changes could have a detrimental effect on our cabin crew, but this whole debate seems to have passed them by) .
SEPLA have their own problems close to home at the moment so I somewhat doubt they'll be warmly welcoming a BALPA rep to discuss joint tactics any time soon....in other words Waterside I suspect that if your story is correct "you've been had".
I'm sure there's operational savings to be made which will not suit a minority of our colleagues but plans have now been signed,sealed and delivered.
Here's to a successful and profitable future !
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WW, you previous posts supporting another series of actions have been a tacit web of lies, half truths and deceit and now you expect us to believe you when you waffle on about :
I think you find yourself posting above your pay grade as the increased productivity demanded by the BMI merger has just been announced including the requirement to increase 2 man (SH) sector lengths. No surprise there.
BA, nor any other UK company, cannot change it's current rostering without tacit approval from the CAA that the new system would both comply with the EASA regulations AND be acceptable under the Fatigue management system. Both of which would be under the auspices of the BACC as they are set out in the BA pilots MOA.
Good try, no cigar (or champagne that's been on ice for years)
Having just returned home from a FTOCM I now have it on good authority that Cabin Crew and Flight Crew hours will not rise above our present limit. However the BA 2 man operated flights will increase above the parameters of present operational limits.
BA, nor any other UK company, cannot change it's current rostering without tacit approval from the CAA that the new system would both comply with the EASA regulations AND be acceptable under the Fatigue management system. Both of which would be under the auspices of the BACC as they are set out in the BA pilots MOA.
Good try, no cigar (or champagne that's been on ice for years)
I'm not sure how anything appertaining to the EASA proposals can be regarded as:
, since there is still a long way to go before the BA/CAA process.. I believe we're at least a year off that.
I agree with Wirbel, I suspect for some reason (accidental?) WW is confusing scheduling changes due to the BMI tie up with changes due to the EASA proposals.
signed,sealed and delivered.
I agree with Wirbel, I suspect for some reason (accidental?) WW is confusing scheduling changes due to the BMI tie up with changes due to the EASA proposals.
Last edited by wiggy; 3rd Oct 2012 at 10:08.
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WW, you previous posts
I was actually talking about longhaul operation, not SH.
Change is coming, absolutely no doubt about it - let's hope we all face up to the challenge and help make IAG the worlds most profitable and secure airline group. Our focus must be essentially on our customers and it's imperative we deliver a world class product at a competative price.
To achieve this we must embrace change together.
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And surely BA pilots have a scheduling agreement in place. Any change to that will require BALPA approval.
Embrace change and the future will be very rosy indeed!
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 3rd Oct 2012 at 10:28.
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I don't think I need any advice about employment law thank you. Seems pretty clear to me...
'This Agreement will form part of the crews’ contract of employment and will supersede the limits and definitions in the OPS General/Basic manual Section 7, Cap 371 and the ANO. Where items are not covered in this agreement then the limitations and definitions laid down in Section 7 of the OPS General/Basic manual, Cap 371 and the ANO will apply. This agreement will be subject to seasonal review.
No changes will be made to this Agreement without prior consultation and Agreement between the Company and the BALPA Company Council."
This is not BA, but another BALPA recognised UK operator. As per my previous advice, I would check your facts before talking about deals being signed and sealed.
'This Agreement will form part of the crews’ contract of employment and will supersede the limits and definitions in the OPS General/Basic manual Section 7, Cap 371 and the ANO. Where items are not covered in this agreement then the limitations and definitions laid down in Section 7 of the OPS General/Basic manual, Cap 371 and the ANO will apply. This agreement will be subject to seasonal review.
No changes will be made to this Agreement without prior consultation and Agreement between the Company and the BALPA Company Council."
This is not BA, but another BALPA recognised UK operator. As per my previous advice, I would check your facts before talking about deals being signed and sealed.
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Yes it forms part of your contract as did the cabin crews scheduling agreement which included crewing levels.Now a little law lesson for you Jock - certain terms of a collective agreement are not apt for incorporation into each individual employment contract. The collective agreement BALPA has entered into is to cover the general planning and deployment of 3000 flight crew employees but the agreement is not the stuff of 3000 individual contracts. Do you know what terms are apt for inclusion into your individual contract?
I must also point out that most employment contracts contain a clause allowing the company to make 'reasonable changes' to any terms of employment from time to time and therefore even if the terms of your collective agreement is contained in your contract of employment, then the company is able to vary the terms under that clause.
Now to your point that the company must consult BALPA, you are correct. Consultation can be a very loose process that quickly decsends into 'failure to agree' and then into imposing what I would consider as minor changes to contracts of employment. Now surely BALPA are not going to become aggressive over that?
After all any changes will put us on a sound financial footing.
Don't cancel your appointment with the Employment Lawyer
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 3rd Oct 2012 at 12:34.
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Wonker
You have no idea what you are talking about with regards to FTLs, you've made that very clear, so I'd leave the safety case argument for/against in the hands of those of us who do know.
As for change in BA, yes I agree with you, it is coming and we will all have to swallow a dose. But if you really are a manager in waterside I'd be careful how much change you wish for. I arrived into BA via a fair few years in the world of Low Cost. The biggest difference I've noticed between the two?
Hell of a lot of managers in BA.
You have no idea what you are talking about with regards to FTLs, you've made that very clear, so I'd leave the safety case argument for/against in the hands of those of us who do know.
As for change in BA, yes I agree with you, it is coming and we will all have to swallow a dose. But if you really are a manager in waterside I'd be careful how much change you wish for. I arrived into BA via a fair few years in the world of Low Cost. The biggest difference I've noticed between the two?
Hell of a lot of managers in BA.
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BMR,
Wonker has penned himself as a 744 pilot, Cabin crew and now a manager. Perhaps a tomato gardener who failed to get into Hamble?
He is drumming up all the arguments from BA vs BASSA, a conflict which he assured the Pprune community was sign sealed and delivered to BASSA on a plate, that should give you an idea to how much credence many put on his 'ideas'.
After that defeat he has peddled every bit of anti pilot rhetoric he can drag up on these forums and given us more doom scenarios than Hollywood in 2012.
Change is ALWAYS apparent in business, a business that stagnates is a dead business. As flight crew however we are well aware of the need to change and subsequently our conditions are significantly different to 10 or even 15 years ago and sufficiently in line with comparable carriers.
There are far wider ranging issues with respect to FTL's than WW narrow mind can comprehend. The cost of change might well outweigh the cost savings involved especially when it comes to Safety, insurance and global brand positioning.
Interesting that WW picks on extended 2 man operations, they are the ones under the most scrutiny due to their fatiguing effects.
Nice try Wonker, pull the other one, it's got bells on.
Wonker has penned himself as a 744 pilot, Cabin crew and now a manager.
Perhaps a tomato gardener who failed to get into Hamble?He is drumming up all the arguments from BA vs BASSA, a conflict which he assured the Pprune community was sign sealed and delivered to BASSA on a plate, that should give you an idea to how much credence many put on his 'ideas'.
After that defeat he has peddled every bit of anti pilot rhetoric he can drag up on these forums and given us more doom scenarios than Hollywood in 2012.
Change is ALWAYS apparent in business, a business that stagnates is a dead business. As flight crew however we are well aware of the need to change and subsequently our conditions are significantly different to 10 or even 15 years ago and sufficiently in line with comparable carriers.
There are far wider ranging issues with respect to FTL's than WW narrow mind can comprehend. The cost of change might well outweigh the cost savings involved especially when it comes to Safety, insurance and global brand positioning.
Interesting that WW picks on extended 2 man operations, they are the ones under the most scrutiny due to their fatiguing effects.
Nice try Wonker, pull the other one, it's got bells on.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 3rd Oct 2012 at 18:03.
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There are far wider ranging issues with respect to FTL's than WW narrow mind can comprehend
Having spent another midnight shift in FTOCM bouncing ideas around, I really need some down time so unfortunately cannot contribute until later today.
Sleep easy guys - cuddle and embrace your partner as strong as you would change!!!