BA recruitment
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hand Solo,
Your posts beggar belief.
Just exactly why do you consider that you are worth more than the salary you are receiving now?? There is no such thing as "a pilot does this, so he is worth that" Sorry to pi*s on your parade but the piloting profession works in the same way as every other industry; i.e supply and demand. OK, so you can fly a plane, but then so can thousands of others, many unemployed, and ready to step into your shoes old boy. If you are not happy with your lot, then pi*s off and go do something else, probably for a quarter of the salary you are presently receiving. There really is some sort of infection that turns many (but not all) BA pilots into pompous, arrogant, selfish prats these days. Crews in other carriers get on with their lives and are thankful for the opportunities presented to them, but not in BA, oh no! Grow up little boy, the world in general, and the aviation world in particular, is a harsh place, and you are in a very fortunate position compared to many, but you are either too stupid to realise that fact, or too arrogant to care. AA, Delta, KLM etc get more....so go and get a job there then, but then you can't can you? so that argument is totally and utterly irrelevent. Go out and do something, instead of all this whinge, whinge, whinge we seem to get on these forums these days. Don't bother to reply. I'm sick of your self righteous bull*hit.
Your posts beggar belief.
Just exactly why do you consider that you are worth more than the salary you are receiving now?? There is no such thing as "a pilot does this, so he is worth that" Sorry to pi*s on your parade but the piloting profession works in the same way as every other industry; i.e supply and demand. OK, so you can fly a plane, but then so can thousands of others, many unemployed, and ready to step into your shoes old boy. If you are not happy with your lot, then pi*s off and go do something else, probably for a quarter of the salary you are presently receiving. There really is some sort of infection that turns many (but not all) BA pilots into pompous, arrogant, selfish prats these days. Crews in other carriers get on with their lives and are thankful for the opportunities presented to them, but not in BA, oh no! Grow up little boy, the world in general, and the aviation world in particular, is a harsh place, and you are in a very fortunate position compared to many, but you are either too stupid to realise that fact, or too arrogant to care. AA, Delta, KLM etc get more....so go and get a job there then, but then you can't can you? so that argument is totally and utterly irrelevent. Go out and do something, instead of all this whinge, whinge, whinge we seem to get on these forums these days. Don't bother to reply. I'm sick of your self righteous bull*hit.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow you really have got a chip on your shoulder Basil! This may spoil your rant Basil but the pilot industry does not work like every other industry, unless every other industry works on 'wait in turn' seniority. I can't think of any others, can you? Supply and demand doesn't work when its skewed by the golden handcuffs of seniority. Why shouldn't I think I'm worth more than my salary now? If Easyjet are paying more for people with the same qualifications and experience to do the same work as me is it because they are feeling particularly benevolent towards the pilot community, or because thats what they think the market rate is? There may be thousands of others waiting to step into my shoes and do my job for less, but they can't because we have a union and laws to prevent that, just like I can't go do the same to KLM or Lufthansa pilots, so your argument is totally and utterly irrelevant. If I wasn't happy I would **** off and do something else, probably my previous profession, especially as I now earn a quarter of what my former colleagues do. The world is a very harsh place, I enjoy what I do and I worked hard to get it, so I'm not going to let some embittered old whinger like you tell me I should earn less. As for pompous and arrogant, well you really should go back and read your own post.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not stop the BA bashing?
I'd like to add a measured response to this thread, which is largely negative, but I'm sure it won't ring true with all that read it. However, here goes...
I like British Airways, they are MY favourite airline and I choose to fly with them over the low-costs because experience has shown me that they offer a great service. It might not be to everybody's liking, but on a planet with 5 billion people we have 5 billion different opinions and 5 billion different personalities so I don't think we'll ever find something that EVERYBODY likes. This might be a passenger perspective but I honestly believe the same principle applies behind the scenes in the airline, if not all the airlines.
This thread is full of arguments, slander and cutting remarks and I think it's a shame that BA gets such an enormous bashing from all angles on this forum. Why do people seem to think that BA needs to be accused of this and that and HAVE to do this and that.... with an enormous workforce the company will NEVER keep everybody happy. FACT. Tell me a company where everybody is happy and would not change a thing?
It seems odd to me that some pilots can come on this forum and tell us all how awful they think the company is.. but will still gladly accept the paycheck at the end of the month. The company is far from perfect but they are still offering good, exciting jobs. If you personally feel the situation is terrible, get up tomorrow, sit down at the computer and type your resignation letter. Hand it in after your day's work, fulfill your contractually obliged number of flights and then enter the wild job market of today which is horribly saturated not only with eager young low-hours pilots, but also highly experienced guys and girls who have sadly been laid off from other carriers (GOOD LUCK to all you guys looking for jobs right now!)
Someone said on this thread that they couldn't go to a low-cost carrier because of the pension they would be leaving behind.. what kind of an 'excuse' is that? That argument says that it's all about money, but that's not what life is about. If people want more money, then why not go and work for another carrier who offers higher salaries in the short-term? If money is all that is important then why not quit flying and go into IT or fund managing? They pay well, and you wouldn't have to put up with 'poor rostering' etc.
BA offers a unique kind of career to men and women from all over the world. For pilots you can join and fly modern jets from the A319 to the 777, fly all over the world AND be paid to do it. Does the thrill of the job really not shine through for some people anymore? If not, just go (no pun intended).
Salaries around the world will vary, that's life. Doctors in the UK and the USA get paid vastly different salaries, but the US system is very different to ours. Oh, and that reminds me.. is the USA's road to entering a major international airline not considerably more onerous than that in the UK? It is for some... couple of thousand hours before a regional will look at you, couple more before you get a sniff of a major? Arguing that British pilots should get paid the same as US guys is silly really. British pilots should get paid what the employer wants to pay them, that's how business works. Again, if you don't like it, don't enter the profession.
As for striking.. well this is something that really stirs my emotions. Striking is a terrible thing to do as far as I am concerned. Sure you grab attention for a short while, but THINK about the knock on effects: the passengers you can trouble and inconvenience if a flight is cancelled, the money you could cost the airline and the damage to an airline's reputation that could be caused. If you damage a company's repuation so much that no-one wants to use them anymore that company could cease to exist... and woop, there go your jobs.
Instead of getting angry on these forums why not put pen to paper and write to the relevant people in your company and suggest ways for them to save money, or ways for things to be improved. I am a firm believer that some of the best ideas for company management come from the workers themselves.. not the graduate managers who have degrees in business studies but have never, and do not, work down on the company floor.
You could write and say, Dear Advertising Dept: why don't you launch a nationwide campaign advertising your amazing low fares which start at £63 return between (say) Glasgow and Heathrow. Let people know that they can get exactly where they want to go for almost no money! Or why not invite business people to try the new BA Club World service for half the price of the usual ticket, for a limited time? Or how about asking PR/Media students at university to prepare projects on how to improve profitability on a loss-making route? So many ideas, these not relating to the things you guys need changed in flight ops... why not try it?
British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was. It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed. For me, I will still be able to fly home to my family feeling safe in the hands of some of the best trained pilots and cabin crew in the world. For you, ladies and gentlemen, British Airways will still employ the 3000 fight crew who would otherwise be sending out CVs.. hoping to find a job.
Some food for thought I hope. Replies would be welcome but I'd rather people didn't snipe if there are any inaccuracies. This is just my opinion. Share with me yours?
I like British Airways, they are MY favourite airline and I choose to fly with them over the low-costs because experience has shown me that they offer a great service. It might not be to everybody's liking, but on a planet with 5 billion people we have 5 billion different opinions and 5 billion different personalities so I don't think we'll ever find something that EVERYBODY likes. This might be a passenger perspective but I honestly believe the same principle applies behind the scenes in the airline, if not all the airlines.
This thread is full of arguments, slander and cutting remarks and I think it's a shame that BA gets such an enormous bashing from all angles on this forum. Why do people seem to think that BA needs to be accused of this and that and HAVE to do this and that.... with an enormous workforce the company will NEVER keep everybody happy. FACT. Tell me a company where everybody is happy and would not change a thing?
It seems odd to me that some pilots can come on this forum and tell us all how awful they think the company is.. but will still gladly accept the paycheck at the end of the month. The company is far from perfect but they are still offering good, exciting jobs. If you personally feel the situation is terrible, get up tomorrow, sit down at the computer and type your resignation letter. Hand it in after your day's work, fulfill your contractually obliged number of flights and then enter the wild job market of today which is horribly saturated not only with eager young low-hours pilots, but also highly experienced guys and girls who have sadly been laid off from other carriers (GOOD LUCK to all you guys looking for jobs right now!)
Someone said on this thread that they couldn't go to a low-cost carrier because of the pension they would be leaving behind.. what kind of an 'excuse' is that? That argument says that it's all about money, but that's not what life is about. If people want more money, then why not go and work for another carrier who offers higher salaries in the short-term? If money is all that is important then why not quit flying and go into IT or fund managing? They pay well, and you wouldn't have to put up with 'poor rostering' etc.
BA offers a unique kind of career to men and women from all over the world. For pilots you can join and fly modern jets from the A319 to the 777, fly all over the world AND be paid to do it. Does the thrill of the job really not shine through for some people anymore? If not, just go (no pun intended).
Salaries around the world will vary, that's life. Doctors in the UK and the USA get paid vastly different salaries, but the US system is very different to ours. Oh, and that reminds me.. is the USA's road to entering a major international airline not considerably more onerous than that in the UK? It is for some... couple of thousand hours before a regional will look at you, couple more before you get a sniff of a major? Arguing that British pilots should get paid the same as US guys is silly really. British pilots should get paid what the employer wants to pay them, that's how business works. Again, if you don't like it, don't enter the profession.
As for striking.. well this is something that really stirs my emotions. Striking is a terrible thing to do as far as I am concerned. Sure you grab attention for a short while, but THINK about the knock on effects: the passengers you can trouble and inconvenience if a flight is cancelled, the money you could cost the airline and the damage to an airline's reputation that could be caused. If you damage a company's repuation so much that no-one wants to use them anymore that company could cease to exist... and woop, there go your jobs.
Instead of getting angry on these forums why not put pen to paper and write to the relevant people in your company and suggest ways for them to save money, or ways for things to be improved. I am a firm believer that some of the best ideas for company management come from the workers themselves.. not the graduate managers who have degrees in business studies but have never, and do not, work down on the company floor.
You could write and say, Dear Advertising Dept: why don't you launch a nationwide campaign advertising your amazing low fares which start at £63 return between (say) Glasgow and Heathrow. Let people know that they can get exactly where they want to go for almost no money! Or why not invite business people to try the new BA Club World service for half the price of the usual ticket, for a limited time? Or how about asking PR/Media students at university to prepare projects on how to improve profitability on a loss-making route? So many ideas, these not relating to the things you guys need changed in flight ops... why not try it?
British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was. It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed. For me, I will still be able to fly home to my family feeling safe in the hands of some of the best trained pilots and cabin crew in the world. For you, ladies and gentlemen, British Airways will still employ the 3000 fight crew who would otherwise be sending out CVs.. hoping to find a job.
Some food for thought I hope. Replies would be welcome but I'd rather people didn't snipe if there are any inaccuracies. This is just my opinion. Share with me yours?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I'm glad you feel that way about BA Tucano. I think you'd find most BA pilots are very proud of the good aspects of the company and work very hard to ensure the company is a success. As you rightly put it, no BA, no job. We are also mostly shareholders so when the company performs badly, it hits us in the pocket too, not to mention concerns about job security.
What gets most BA pilots backs up (apart from the endless BA bashing on this forum) is the fact that within BA the problems are all too often laid at the pilots door because thats easier than dealing with the real problems in the company. We'd like nothing more than to see the inefficiencies stripped out of the company so that we can get on with the business of being a world leading airline, but that creates far too much industrial unrest for the managers comfort. BA needs radical reform, and its a testimony to the efficiency and productivity to the Flight Operations department that so little fat could be found to strip out in the F S &S review. The Flight Ops department has led the way in internal efficiency and cost saving whilst other areas of the company have been profligate in their spending, yet its our door they come knocking on for savings. If other departments are working so hard then why did it take marketing 6 months to decide to offer a seat sale when Ryanair did it in six days? Why has it taken years to point out that we can be as affordable as the low cost airlines? Most people on the front line at BA can tell the company how to make savings and do, but its a drop in the ocean compared to the vast waste of resources which come from some of waterworlds madcap schemes.
The direction this thread has taken is a result of the personal experience of many who have joined BA and found it hasn't lived up to the promise. Why shouldn't they tell other people how BA is? Would you prefer we didn't point out that DEPs will struggle to achieve a command, that morale is low? If you want to join BA for reasons of roster stability or pension or fleet variety, then so be it, but at least people will know what they're getting themselves into and won't be disappointed. Perhaps people should resign if they don't like it? Unfortunately its not as easy as that for those with family commitments who will have to take a significant pay cut in the short term in order to improve their prospects in the long term. There aren't many people who want to leave BA, it has been a great airline in the past and we all hope that it will build on that for the future. The problem is that from where we're sitting we just can't see it improving. Nothing ever seems to be done to stop the rot in the company, and every week we're targeted to sacrifice even more. Money isn't everything, but lifestyle is and people are tired of constantly being the bogeymen in the companies eyes (cue usual anti-BA rantings, you should be grateful, I'm on the dole, xxxx is paid less the usual stuff)
This brings me on to the emotive subject of striking, a word that most BA pilots will grimace on hearing. Nobody wants that, nobody. Those who were involved in the last dispute remember the threatening phone calls from managers, the extreme pressure, the uncertainty and stress. It is not a pleasant experience, nor a course of action to be pursued lightly. But what option is there when all negotiations have failed? The pilot market isn't like the IT market. Before the slowdown you could walk out of a well paid job in the IT industry and straight into another. That can't be done in the flying industry because of seniority rules and incremental pay scales. The day everyone is paid the same regardless of length of service we'll see true mobility of labour, which is exactly what the airlines want to avoid and why we'll never see it. So what do you suggest?
What gets most BA pilots backs up (apart from the endless BA bashing on this forum) is the fact that within BA the problems are all too often laid at the pilots door because thats easier than dealing with the real problems in the company. We'd like nothing more than to see the inefficiencies stripped out of the company so that we can get on with the business of being a world leading airline, but that creates far too much industrial unrest for the managers comfort. BA needs radical reform, and its a testimony to the efficiency and productivity to the Flight Operations department that so little fat could be found to strip out in the F S &S review. The Flight Ops department has led the way in internal efficiency and cost saving whilst other areas of the company have been profligate in their spending, yet its our door they come knocking on for savings. If other departments are working so hard then why did it take marketing 6 months to decide to offer a seat sale when Ryanair did it in six days? Why has it taken years to point out that we can be as affordable as the low cost airlines? Most people on the front line at BA can tell the company how to make savings and do, but its a drop in the ocean compared to the vast waste of resources which come from some of waterworlds madcap schemes.
The direction this thread has taken is a result of the personal experience of many who have joined BA and found it hasn't lived up to the promise. Why shouldn't they tell other people how BA is? Would you prefer we didn't point out that DEPs will struggle to achieve a command, that morale is low? If you want to join BA for reasons of roster stability or pension or fleet variety, then so be it, but at least people will know what they're getting themselves into and won't be disappointed. Perhaps people should resign if they don't like it? Unfortunately its not as easy as that for those with family commitments who will have to take a significant pay cut in the short term in order to improve their prospects in the long term. There aren't many people who want to leave BA, it has been a great airline in the past and we all hope that it will build on that for the future. The problem is that from where we're sitting we just can't see it improving. Nothing ever seems to be done to stop the rot in the company, and every week we're targeted to sacrifice even more. Money isn't everything, but lifestyle is and people are tired of constantly being the bogeymen in the companies eyes (cue usual anti-BA rantings, you should be grateful, I'm on the dole, xxxx is paid less the usual stuff)
This brings me on to the emotive subject of striking, a word that most BA pilots will grimace on hearing. Nobody wants that, nobody. Those who were involved in the last dispute remember the threatening phone calls from managers, the extreme pressure, the uncertainty and stress. It is not a pleasant experience, nor a course of action to be pursued lightly. But what option is there when all negotiations have failed? The pilot market isn't like the IT market. Before the slowdown you could walk out of a well paid job in the IT industry and straight into another. That can't be done in the flying industry because of seniority rules and incremental pay scales. The day everyone is paid the same regardless of length of service we'll see true mobility of labour, which is exactly what the airlines want to avoid and why we'll never see it. So what do you suggest?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Surrey (actually)
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Non pilots, please stop trying to tell us that "it's the market", and "go and get another job". Unfortunately, the aviation industry works on seniority and incremental pay scales. After a few years in one company, moving to another means a significant pay drop, unlike most people, who leave for a payrise!
Sure eventually the market works it out, but by that time we're in another boom, or maybe another bust, or just to throw a spanner in the works, Bin Liner comes along. Just t'ain't the same as leaving your city desk on Friday for a new one up the road on Monday!
Sure eventually the market works it out, but by that time we're in another boom, or maybe another bust, or just to throw a spanner in the works, Bin Liner comes along. Just t'ain't the same as leaving your city desk on Friday for a new one up the road on Monday!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tucano
Been there done that, in my exeprience no manager in BA is interested in any ideas from the shop floor unless they agree with his own ideas.
I notice that Britain is now ranked 30th in the world for the competance of its senior managers (International Institute for Management Developement - World Competitiveness Yearbook). BA flying the flag again?
Hand Solo
I can assure you that aircrew in BA are not the only group within BA who are continually put down by the mangement.
It is sad to see that FSS has failed (are we really surprised?) the 'new' management team is just the same old faces in different roles - something about rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.
Instead of getting angry on these forums why not put pen to paper and write to the relevant people in your company and suggest ways for them to save money, or ways for things to be improved. I am a firm believer that some of the best ideas for company management come from the workers themselves.. not the graduate managers who have degrees in business studies but have never, and do not, work down on the company floor.
I notice that Britain is now ranked 30th in the world for the competance of its senior managers (International Institute for Management Developement - World Competitiveness Yearbook). BA flying the flag again?
Hand Solo
I can assure you that aircrew in BA are not the only group within BA who are continually put down by the mangement.
It is sad to see that FSS has failed (are we really surprised?) the 'new' management team is just the same old faces in different roles - something about rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hand Solo
You might be paid less than easyJet but thats because you dont work as hard..................Like to see you guys turn a 737 in 25 minutes four times each duty. I suspect those down the road in GO and Ryanair will be thinking the same.
Someone once said that if the pilots stop moaning about their terms and conditions then the airline really is in trouble so I guess BA is doing OK!
You might be paid less than easyJet but thats because you dont work as hard..................Like to see you guys turn a 737 in 25 minutes four times each duty. I suspect those down the road in GO and Ryanair will be thinking the same.
Someone once said that if the pilots stop moaning about their terms and conditions then the airline really is in trouble so I guess BA is doing OK!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hand Solo, Slickster,
You really don't get it do you???
You CHOSE to enter an industry with pay, promotion, fleet opportunities etc. predicated on seniority. Let me say that again for the hard of understanding amongst you....it was YOUR CHOICE. Nobody held a gun to your head and said "you must fly for BA" or indeed any other airline at all for that matter. So all these selfish statements about T's & C's not being as lucrative as "Un" Easyjet shows you up for what you are, and your sort is not uncommon in the BA of today. Pity. Personally I earn less than a BA pilot, a lot less after factoring in the difference in flying hours, but that is not important to me, I fly because I get tremendous satisfaction from the job. You may feel the same, but then thats just not enough for you is it?? Why do BA pilots think they should be on the first row of the grid where pay and conditions are concerned? Many good airlines out there employing skilled and experienced crews, as good as BA pilots for sure, but they earn less. Why are you different? You will get what your company pay you, if you are unhappy i will repeat...DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! If BALPA don't have the motivation or the ability to improve your lot then thats just too bad isn't it? Let me say now that I am a great admirer of BA, they gave me my first break into the airline industry and was there 7 years, and my Dad flew for them for 30 years. I know that there is a chronic overstaffing with managers and paper shufflers in Waterworld (and indeed the Compost centre as well) but why do the pilots not lead by example? Instead you look more and more like arrogant, selfish, self serving grabbers...This is how a lot of others in the company see you, including Engineering, who have suffered very much longer and harder than you ever have. STOP LOOKING AT THE FEW ABOVE YOU, AND START LOOKING AT THE MANY BELOW........get some perspective, for *****sake.
You really don't get it do you???
You CHOSE to enter an industry with pay, promotion, fleet opportunities etc. predicated on seniority. Let me say that again for the hard of understanding amongst you....it was YOUR CHOICE. Nobody held a gun to your head and said "you must fly for BA" or indeed any other airline at all for that matter. So all these selfish statements about T's & C's not being as lucrative as "Un" Easyjet shows you up for what you are, and your sort is not uncommon in the BA of today. Pity. Personally I earn less than a BA pilot, a lot less after factoring in the difference in flying hours, but that is not important to me, I fly because I get tremendous satisfaction from the job. You may feel the same, but then thats just not enough for you is it?? Why do BA pilots think they should be on the first row of the grid where pay and conditions are concerned? Many good airlines out there employing skilled and experienced crews, as good as BA pilots for sure, but they earn less. Why are you different? You will get what your company pay you, if you are unhappy i will repeat...DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! If BALPA don't have the motivation or the ability to improve your lot then thats just too bad isn't it? Let me say now that I am a great admirer of BA, they gave me my first break into the airline industry and was there 7 years, and my Dad flew for them for 30 years. I know that there is a chronic overstaffing with managers and paper shufflers in Waterworld (and indeed the Compost centre as well) but why do the pilots not lead by example? Instead you look more and more like arrogant, selfish, self serving grabbers...This is how a lot of others in the company see you, including Engineering, who have suffered very much longer and harder than you ever have. STOP LOOKING AT THE FEW ABOVE YOU, AND START LOOKING AT THE MANY BELOW........get some perspective, for *****sake.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 30th Apr 2002 at 20:25.
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JetGirl
You are barking up the wrong tree. Here in BAR we work plenty hard and are no strangers to split duties, max FDP, discretion and 5-sector days. Your argument does not apply, we work equally as hard as the low-cost, for less.
Basil
Stick to the silly walks - your silly postings make no sense. BA pilots can whinge as much as they like. If you don't accept that, go to another thread! Everything has perspective, you can't fault Hand Solo for having a different view to yourself.
You are barking up the wrong tree. Here in BAR we work plenty hard and are no strangers to split duties, max FDP, discretion and 5-sector days. Your argument does not apply, we work equally as hard as the low-cost, for less.
Basil
Stick to the silly walks - your silly postings make no sense. BA pilots can whinge as much as they like. If you don't accept that, go to another thread! Everything has perspective, you can't fault Hand Solo for having a different view to yourself.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 30th Apr 2002 at 23:51.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well at least Basil has finally shown his true colours and brought out his 'engineers earn less than you' line. Well all your arguments apply to them as well Basil. Every now and then someone comes on to this forum and gives us that spiel, so let me remind oyu once again that is is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Guests welcome, but if you don't want to discuss pilot things, don't come here. You obviously think most BA pilots (or at least me!) are ignorant, but you are wrong. Contrary to your belief we do 'get it'. You're right, nobody forced a gun to our heads, but if/when we start flexing some industrial muscle for better pay and conditions I bet you'll be the first on here criticising us and accusing us of greed. I'm actually pleased for you that you are in a position where you can do your job for enjoyment alone, it must be very gratifying. The rest of us do it to keep the roof over our heads. Why shouldn't BA pilots expect to be on the first level for pay?
Exactly what example would you like us to lead by? We've already self-financed a redundancy deal for our F/Es, changed rostering rules once again to improve productivity, changed crew rest rules to allow services to continue to a couple of 'hotspots' in the world, introduced new flight planning systems to save millions in fuel costs, reduced and compressed sim checks to save cash, accepted swingeing cuts in Ts & Cs in the regions to pay for new aircraft (theres a novelty, all regional staff fund the companys new aircraft out of own pockets, company takes cash and doesn't produce aircraft), cut crew meals, turned off lifts and escalators to save cash,etc etc. I could go on and on with cost saving initiatives led by flight ops. Or perhaps you mean more touchy-feely lead from the front, being 'senior manager on board' stuff, fostering good CRM with the cabin crew and ground staff, eliminating the stuffy and pompous attitudes of the minority old guard. Do you mean sending all new FOs to different business sections of the company to get an understanding of the operation, or doing the same with new skippers, so that all are better 'on-the-day operations managers' (both initiatives now cancelled of course to save cash), sending pilots to LATCC and LHR tower and bringing ATCOs on famil flights and into the simulators. Tell me, because I really am at a loss to understand, what exactly do you think BA pilots should do before they deserve a raise? (and don't say work harder because a fair chunk of our workforce is finding its roster restricted by CAP371 at the moment). I have absolutely no intention of following you suggestion of 'getting a perspective'. Nobody ever improved their lot by looking down instead of looking up. If the people you consider 'below' me don't like it then they can always have a crack at doing my job. After all, its really easy to get into, and nobodys forcing them to do what they do.
JetGirl- I can't turn a 737 around in 25 mins four times each duty because I don't fly one, and as far as I know Easy and Go guys don't do it either because they only do a max of four sectors in a day. However I can and frequently have turned around an A319 in less than 25 mins four times each duty. The only reason our standard turnaround is 40 mins is because it takes longer to board pax with with preassigned seating, we have to load 126 meals + bars and we have cleaners clean the aircraft properly (yes that means hoovering and under the seat squabs too) instead of getting the cabin crew to have a cursory clean up. If you know of any Easyjet or Go guys who've worked 11 5 sector days in a month in addition to the usual load of 4 sectors with only 10 days off then I'm keen to know how they did it cos our guys were absolutely shagged after that month.
Exactly what example would you like us to lead by? We've already self-financed a redundancy deal for our F/Es, changed rostering rules once again to improve productivity, changed crew rest rules to allow services to continue to a couple of 'hotspots' in the world, introduced new flight planning systems to save millions in fuel costs, reduced and compressed sim checks to save cash, accepted swingeing cuts in Ts & Cs in the regions to pay for new aircraft (theres a novelty, all regional staff fund the companys new aircraft out of own pockets, company takes cash and doesn't produce aircraft), cut crew meals, turned off lifts and escalators to save cash,etc etc. I could go on and on with cost saving initiatives led by flight ops. Or perhaps you mean more touchy-feely lead from the front, being 'senior manager on board' stuff, fostering good CRM with the cabin crew and ground staff, eliminating the stuffy and pompous attitudes of the minority old guard. Do you mean sending all new FOs to different business sections of the company to get an understanding of the operation, or doing the same with new skippers, so that all are better 'on-the-day operations managers' (both initiatives now cancelled of course to save cash), sending pilots to LATCC and LHR tower and bringing ATCOs on famil flights and into the simulators. Tell me, because I really am at a loss to understand, what exactly do you think BA pilots should do before they deserve a raise? (and don't say work harder because a fair chunk of our workforce is finding its roster restricted by CAP371 at the moment). I have absolutely no intention of following you suggestion of 'getting a perspective'. Nobody ever improved their lot by looking down instead of looking up. If the people you consider 'below' me don't like it then they can always have a crack at doing my job. After all, its really easy to get into, and nobodys forcing them to do what they do.
JetGirl- I can't turn a 737 around in 25 mins four times each duty because I don't fly one, and as far as I know Easy and Go guys don't do it either because they only do a max of four sectors in a day. However I can and frequently have turned around an A319 in less than 25 mins four times each duty. The only reason our standard turnaround is 40 mins is because it takes longer to board pax with with preassigned seating, we have to load 126 meals + bars and we have cleaners clean the aircraft properly (yes that means hoovering and under the seat squabs too) instead of getting the cabin crew to have a cursory clean up. If you know of any Easyjet or Go guys who've worked 11 5 sector days in a month in addition to the usual load of 4 sectors with only 10 days off then I'm keen to know how they did it cos our guys were absolutely shagged after that month.
It is true that BAR work just about as hard as I do in Go. I have a good friend in BAR on the minibus. Our rosters look pretty similar as do our pay cheques. My hours are a little less palatable is the biggest difference.
I think the vast vast majority of non-BA airline pilots in the UK want to see BA's T&C's improved.
WWW
I think the vast vast majority of non-BA airline pilots in the UK want to see BA's T&C's improved.
WWW
Just as an aside on turnaround times.
At Go (and Buzz) there is pre-assigned ticketed seating for 148 pax (higher density than BA). More often than not the bars have to changed (domestic to international are different).
On board cleaning down route is by the cabin (and sometimes flightcrew) but on return to base the cleaners come on board with hoovers etc. The cabin crew also have to cash up their on board sales.
We operate BA procedures for briefing, checklists, walkarounds etc. So; things aren't actually much easier than in full service.
Its not black magic to do a 25min turnaround and I am sure BA pilots do it just like anyone else. It usually depends on the pax - 148 off, 148 on in 25 mins really is very hard. Often as not the flightdeck is waiting for the pax/loadsheet than the other way around.
Then you cop a 30 minute slot or 4 times around the hold at TALLA and you wonder why you bothered!
Oh and BTW we actually have a six sector day.
WWW
At Go (and Buzz) there is pre-assigned ticketed seating for 148 pax (higher density than BA). More often than not the bars have to changed (domestic to international are different).
On board cleaning down route is by the cabin (and sometimes flightcrew) but on return to base the cleaners come on board with hoovers etc. The cabin crew also have to cash up their on board sales.
We operate BA procedures for briefing, checklists, walkarounds etc. So; things aren't actually much easier than in full service.
Its not black magic to do a 25min turnaround and I am sure BA pilots do it just like anyone else. It usually depends on the pax - 148 off, 148 on in 25 mins really is very hard. Often as not the flightdeck is waiting for the pax/loadsheet than the other way around.
Then you cop a 30 minute slot or 4 times around the hold at TALLA and you wonder why you bothered!
Oh and BTW we actually have a six sector day.
WWW
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA
I'm surprised at how unhappy many BA pilots there are - I work for BA as a Waterside person (jeez should I duck now??) and have always wanted to be a pilot.
I am taking voluntary redundancy in order to fund my own training after which I will earn less than I do now for a couple of years. I'm doing it because I have always loved flying and it worries me that several of you would probably tell me to stay put in view of the decline in your terms and conditions! On the other hand after a degree and 11 years experience of IT and project Management including 7 years in BA I take home just short of £2500 a month, get 26 days leave a year and have 8 days leave a month on average. I know a SFO on 747's with 7 years experience who takes home £4000-£4500 a month, gets more leave and most importantly isn't bored at work!
If it's any consolation FS&S has been pretty severe in the back office with around 1/3 of Managers cut so it is totally incorrect to call it a failure. If you believe BA has an overmanned back office then it seems to me FS&S is addressing that quite well.
Maybe you need to sit in a department where people are seriously worried about their job security and whether they can continue paying their mortgage to get some perspective.
Desk-pilot
I am taking voluntary redundancy in order to fund my own training after which I will earn less than I do now for a couple of years. I'm doing it because I have always loved flying and it worries me that several of you would probably tell me to stay put in view of the decline in your terms and conditions! On the other hand after a degree and 11 years experience of IT and project Management including 7 years in BA I take home just short of £2500 a month, get 26 days leave a year and have 8 days leave a month on average. I know a SFO on 747's with 7 years experience who takes home £4000-£4500 a month, gets more leave and most importantly isn't bored at work!
If it's any consolation FS&S has been pretty severe in the back office with around 1/3 of Managers cut so it is totally incorrect to call it a failure. If you believe BA has an overmanned back office then it seems to me FS&S is addressing that quite well.
Maybe you need to sit in a department where people are seriously worried about their job security and whether they can continue paying their mortgage to get some perspective.
Desk-pilot
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desk pilot has it right. BA crews (mainline that is!) have just about the nearest thing you can get in professional flying to a job for life. Enjoy it, its a priviledge many others do not have.
Hand Solo, you still go on and on about putting a roof over your head etc. but you are managing to do that already aren't you? Oh, perhaps you want a new Bentley every year, earn enough to maybe take 3 holidays a year without having to rely on staff travel to get you there, send your kids to good public schools etc etc....You really come across as a greedy SOB, maybe you'll have to cut back on one meal out per week.....oh, the hardship!!
BTW,****, if you read the homepage for this site it says it is open to ANYONE with an interest in aviation..... not just pilots (although i do hold an ATPL so i guess i qualify anyway) so its obvious where your priorities lie... a keen advocate of the "I'm alright Jack, so **** you" mentality. With posts like yours I'm absolutely amazed that you can't understand the negative tone of the replies you and BA posts in general receive!! Try giving out some sympathy for a change instead of these pathetic tales of woe...reminds me of the joke "why is a BA pilot like a daffodil?...Ans- "Nice to look at, but can't take much rough treatment!" I am not against the salary you receive now or any improvement per se, but where exactly is the money going to come from??? BA is in the ****. Are you advocating that someone else should lose his job, not pay his mortgage, not feed his kids etc. in order that you should get a pay rise to what you FEEL you are worth?? I know that some people are perhaps not so intrinsically vital to the operation as a pilot, but they have a life just the same as you dear boy, and if you are not prepared to share a little in these hard times then that just shows you up as a greedy little **** doesn't it?? As for your comments on the engineers, well, let me just say that if you didn't have engineers to fix the A/C, or signing CRS's etc. then you would have no aircraft to fly, so they are just as vital as you are in the grand scheme of things. They earn a lot less than you do, so if anyone deserves a pay rise and improvements to working conditions first then they do, NOT YOU.
Hand Solo, you still go on and on about putting a roof over your head etc. but you are managing to do that already aren't you? Oh, perhaps you want a new Bentley every year, earn enough to maybe take 3 holidays a year without having to rely on staff travel to get you there, send your kids to good public schools etc etc....You really come across as a greedy SOB, maybe you'll have to cut back on one meal out per week.....oh, the hardship!!
BTW,****, if you read the homepage for this site it says it is open to ANYONE with an interest in aviation..... not just pilots (although i do hold an ATPL so i guess i qualify anyway) so its obvious where your priorities lie... a keen advocate of the "I'm alright Jack, so **** you" mentality. With posts like yours I'm absolutely amazed that you can't understand the negative tone of the replies you and BA posts in general receive!! Try giving out some sympathy for a change instead of these pathetic tales of woe...reminds me of the joke "why is a BA pilot like a daffodil?...Ans- "Nice to look at, but can't take much rough treatment!" I am not against the salary you receive now or any improvement per se, but where exactly is the money going to come from??? BA is in the ****. Are you advocating that someone else should lose his job, not pay his mortgage, not feed his kids etc. in order that you should get a pay rise to what you FEEL you are worth?? I know that some people are perhaps not so intrinsically vital to the operation as a pilot, but they have a life just the same as you dear boy, and if you are not prepared to share a little in these hard times then that just shows you up as a greedy little **** doesn't it?? As for your comments on the engineers, well, let me just say that if you didn't have engineers to fix the A/C, or signing CRS's etc. then you would have no aircraft to fly, so they are just as vital as you are in the grand scheme of things. They earn a lot less than you do, so if anyone deserves a pay rise and improvements to working conditions first then they do, NOT YOU.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 2nd May 2002 at 16:43.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't get too excited about the pay desk-pilot, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've taken home £2500 or more in the years I've worked for BA (but at least I enjoy my work). You may only have 8 days leave per month, but I bet its all on weekends, something which most pilots very rarely achieve. Plus are your 26 days leave all weekdays? I'm only entitled to 30 weekdays of leave all year (I have little say in when I take them either), and I work unsociable hours and public holidays. I've no interest in starting an 'I'm worse off than you' argument, but sweeping generalisations about how a 744 SFO earns sooo much cash just cloud the issue. Not everybody earns that, and I know shorthaul Captains who earn a darn sight less than that. What price do you place on being home for Christmas or family events, not being thousands of miles away when things go wrong, not being constantly jet lagged, not facing the suden end of your career due to a common medical complaint at any time?
I have every personal sympathy for the people at Waterside who face losing their jobs, but to play devils advocate here one could say that as it seems the airline will continue to function without then why were their positions ever necessary? We've employed too many people for too long, thats whats dragged the company down.
Good luck with your endeavours at Oxford, it'll be a long, hard road and you've made a brave decision to go for it. I hope you complete that course and soon find yourself sitting in the RHS of the aircraft of your choice. However once you're there, with a mortgage to pay, family to feed and a big training debt to service, take time out from enjoying the job to assess the financial risks you face, and the relative levels of personal responsibility between your new job and your old one. You may find yourself surprised.
Edited to say I posted this before reading Basils ridiclulous, vitriolic rant. Basil I have no qualm with engineers being paid much more, but its not my job to fight their corner. Furthermore when they can present a case for pay restructuring to the company which represents ZERO NET INCREASE IN THE DEPARTMENTAL BUDGET like ours I'm sure they'll have the full support of flight crew without accusations of greed and self-interest being levelled. Until that happens I suggest you take a valium and do domething to suppress your obvious hatred and prejudices against BA flight crew.
I have every personal sympathy for the people at Waterside who face losing their jobs, but to play devils advocate here one could say that as it seems the airline will continue to function without then why were their positions ever necessary? We've employed too many people for too long, thats whats dragged the company down.
Good luck with your endeavours at Oxford, it'll be a long, hard road and you've made a brave decision to go for it. I hope you complete that course and soon find yourself sitting in the RHS of the aircraft of your choice. However once you're there, with a mortgage to pay, family to feed and a big training debt to service, take time out from enjoying the job to assess the financial risks you face, and the relative levels of personal responsibility between your new job and your old one. You may find yourself surprised.
Edited to say I posted this before reading Basils ridiclulous, vitriolic rant. Basil I have no qualm with engineers being paid much more, but its not my job to fight their corner. Furthermore when they can present a case for pay restructuring to the company which represents ZERO NET INCREASE IN THE DEPARTMENTAL BUDGET like ours I'm sure they'll have the full support of flight crew without accusations of greed and self-interest being levelled. Until that happens I suggest you take a valium and do domething to suppress your obvious hatred and prejudices against BA flight crew.
Last edited by Hand Solo; 1st May 2002 at 18:52.
Basil - you are stepping out of line. Curb your language - asteriks don't count.
If you want to bash BA pilots for some reason do it with biting insight and searing reason. It works much better and avoids making you seem like a prat.
Cheers
WWW
If you want to bash BA pilots for some reason do it with biting insight and searing reason. It works much better and avoids making you seem like a prat.
Cheers
WWW