BA recruitment
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Below the line
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hand, may I also applaud you on your usual well constructed and eloquent posting. How you manage to restrain yourself despite the drivel from the likes of Basil amazes me. (PS Have u married that doc yet...or am I on the wrong trail)
Basil.....no, I wont even bother.
Moderator: do we have guidelines on the posting of vulgar abuse such as displayed by Basil. I would be interested to hear what he has to say if it weren't for the expletives. I vote for banning until he grows up.
Basil.....no, I wont even bother.
Moderator: do we have guidelines on the posting of vulgar abuse such as displayed by Basil. I would be interested to hear what he has to say if it weren't for the expletives. I vote for banning until he grows up.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks chaps, always reassuring to know that I'm not alone in my thinking!
Soup-I think you're on the wrong trail there but if you know any attractive female doctors then feel free to direct them to me c/o the BHX Eurohub!
Soup-I think you're on the wrong trail there but if you know any attractive female doctors then feel free to direct them to me c/o the BHX Eurohub!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the good wishes
Hand-Solo,
Many thanks for the informed and interesting comments - I look forward to flying with you one day at the sharp end.
Re: pilot pay it seems it is very variable from what you write. It also seems impossible to get hold of any indicative salary scales (if only to calm my wife's fears!) so if anyone has a copy they don't mind emailing I'm on [email protected]
Thanks for the good wishes re: the course and career change. I feel exhilerated and terrified all at once so your words are greatly appreciated.
Desk-pilot
Many thanks for the informed and interesting comments - I look forward to flying with you one day at the sharp end.
Re: pilot pay it seems it is very variable from what you write. It also seems impossible to get hold of any indicative salary scales (if only to calm my wife's fears!) so if anyone has a copy they don't mind emailing I'm on [email protected]
Thanks for the good wishes re: the course and career change. I feel exhilerated and terrified all at once so your words are greatly appreciated.
Desk-pilot
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a lowly charter driver in the open market I think it is an ill wind that blows the Nigels from their lofty perch.As the flag carrier we need BA to set the standard in terms and conditions for the rest of the industry.What chance do we mere mortals have of negotiating wages upwards when our managers can point to Nigel and say"Well BA don't get that much"?
Now don't go thinking that you are somehow more worthy of extra cash because of your superior lego building skills Nigel,it's just that we need those flagship terms to counter the ever increasing downward pressure on the market.
As for Basil and the "your choice"mob.Well we could all have chosen to be internet millionares but we didn't!.We therefore have a professional obligation to defend our terms and salaries from our unique locked in seniority system. We all love to fly but should never use that as some kind of pay off for accepting an erosion in pay.We don't all have hotels in Torquay to supplement our income!
Now don't go thinking that you are somehow more worthy of extra cash because of your superior lego building skills Nigel,it's just that we need those flagship terms to counter the ever increasing downward pressure on the market.
As for Basil and the "your choice"mob.Well we could all have chosen to be internet millionares but we didn't!.We therefore have a professional obligation to defend our terms and salaries from our unique locked in seniority system. We all love to fly but should never use that as some kind of pay off for accepting an erosion in pay.We don't all have hotels in Torquay to supplement our income!
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basil Faulty
I have better things to do than deal with the language in your posting. Far easier for me to delete the post or simply close and move the whole thread.
On this occaision I have tidied it up.
soup dragon, we do indeed ! I have just received other complaints of this post. The post has been edited and that will suffice for this occurence.
Now back to what I was doing... and on with the thread.
On this occaision I have tidied it up.
soup dragon, we do indeed ! I have just received other complaints of this post. The post has been edited and that will suffice for this occurence.
Now back to what I was doing... and on with the thread.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetdriver, WWW, BA pilots & anyone else who has followed this thread!!
First of all I would like to apologise to those on here who feel ill at ease with my use of shall we say "earthy" language. I thought that you were all able to take it, I guess I was wrong!
However I DO NOT apologize for my views...
I DO NOT HATE or have PREJUDICE AGAINST BA OR ITS FLIGHTCREW. One of my best friends is a retd BA 747 skipper. The whole point, as I stated previously (and my point seemingly ignored) is; How on earth can BA crews expect a significant pay rise here and now? The company is on its knees!! They appear to prefer to see other people made redundant from a very, very average salary to £53 per week jobseekers allowance in order to fund an increase to what they feel they ought to be paid! Hand Solo keeps telling us about cutbacks here and there and the "sacrifices" made by pilots, but giving the cash saved straight back out in salaries again defeats the object somewhat doesn't it? As I STATED PREVIOUSLY there are certainly too many managers/pen pushers/papershufflers and the like draining resourses. This problem is very historic in nature, but is now finally being addressed and hopefully a leaner, less wasteful BA will emerge in the future and this will be to everyones benefit. If BA guys are saying that savings should be made in flight ops or in any other department just to fund a pay rise that the flightcrew would like, then I think that is supremely selfish, and I'm entitled to say that! Yes, pilots deserve to be very well paid for what they do, but whinging and moaning about it right now in these troubled times just paints all you BA pilots posting here in one light....a tad GREEDY. The pilots at BA I feel sorry for are the new starters, probably on a 'C' scale, and as rightly pointed out, will probably not make the LHS of a 747 unless they are under 30 today. I could suggest that the senior guys can perhaps "self fund" a payrise for their junior collegues if it worries them that much. I don't see charity quite stretching that far somehow!
I have tried insight and reason in argument on many occasions in the past. It doesn't work too well in the face of the "BA establishment" on here, all ready and willing to stick up for one another when an opinion or statement is posted, the contents of which they do not like by criticising them in some way. These guys have their own forum, I request that they go off and whinge/moan/congratulate each other in private. What else is it there for? I will not contribute on such subjects again, I can see I'm wasting my time....Brings to mind the old saying, "There are none so blind as those who do not want to see" Well, BA guys,I'd probably respect your opinions a lot more if you didn't readily dismiss mine out of hand. We can all learn something.....YES, EVEN YOU!!
First of all I would like to apologise to those on here who feel ill at ease with my use of shall we say "earthy" language. I thought that you were all able to take it, I guess I was wrong!
However I DO NOT apologize for my views...
I DO NOT HATE or have PREJUDICE AGAINST BA OR ITS FLIGHTCREW. One of my best friends is a retd BA 747 skipper. The whole point, as I stated previously (and my point seemingly ignored) is; How on earth can BA crews expect a significant pay rise here and now? The company is on its knees!! They appear to prefer to see other people made redundant from a very, very average salary to £53 per week jobseekers allowance in order to fund an increase to what they feel they ought to be paid! Hand Solo keeps telling us about cutbacks here and there and the "sacrifices" made by pilots, but giving the cash saved straight back out in salaries again defeats the object somewhat doesn't it? As I STATED PREVIOUSLY there are certainly too many managers/pen pushers/papershufflers and the like draining resourses. This problem is very historic in nature, but is now finally being addressed and hopefully a leaner, less wasteful BA will emerge in the future and this will be to everyones benefit. If BA guys are saying that savings should be made in flight ops or in any other department just to fund a pay rise that the flightcrew would like, then I think that is supremely selfish, and I'm entitled to say that! Yes, pilots deserve to be very well paid for what they do, but whinging and moaning about it right now in these troubled times just paints all you BA pilots posting here in one light....a tad GREEDY. The pilots at BA I feel sorry for are the new starters, probably on a 'C' scale, and as rightly pointed out, will probably not make the LHS of a 747 unless they are under 30 today. I could suggest that the senior guys can perhaps "self fund" a payrise for their junior collegues if it worries them that much. I don't see charity quite stretching that far somehow!
I have tried insight and reason in argument on many occasions in the past. It doesn't work too well in the face of the "BA establishment" on here, all ready and willing to stick up for one another when an opinion or statement is posted, the contents of which they do not like by criticising them in some way. These guys have their own forum, I request that they go off and whinge/moan/congratulate each other in private. What else is it there for? I will not contribute on such subjects again, I can see I'm wasting my time....Brings to mind the old saying, "There are none so blind as those who do not want to see" Well, BA guys,I'd probably respect your opinions a lot more if you didn't readily dismiss mine out of hand. We can all learn something.....YES, EVEN YOU!!
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess by your apology Basil you may slip further down the moderators' removal list! It was timely and you seem calmer now!
However the fact remains that times are really not that troubled and BA is now seriously short of pilots.
In a shortage of something, the price goes up. I see nothing wrong in striving, in a small way, to drag the BA pilot salary UP to the market rate. I have LOST income by joining BA from a major UK charter airline - you may well ask why! The fact that I made a choice does not prevent me from trying to improve my T's & C's for the benefit of my family - which is why I work for a living.
If you wish to undermine my intentions, and those of my colleagues such as Hand Solo, you will meet with determined and implacable opposition from us wherever you choose to post on this forum.
However the fact remains that times are really not that troubled and BA is now seriously short of pilots.
In a shortage of something, the price goes up. I see nothing wrong in striving, in a small way, to drag the BA pilot salary UP to the market rate. I have LOST income by joining BA from a major UK charter airline - you may well ask why! The fact that I made a choice does not prevent me from trying to improve my T's & C's for the benefit of my family - which is why I work for a living.
If you wish to undermine my intentions, and those of my colleagues such as Hand Solo, you will meet with determined and implacable opposition from us wherever you choose to post on this forum.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slightly confused - the BA crews on this thread are pleading poverty compared to the other UK airlines,
But if you go to the "Punctuality before safety: Chirp reports on a Low Cost Airline" in Reporting Points, Secret Squirrel seems to be saying that BA have much better T & C's than the 'no frills'
Who's telling porkies?
I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've taken home £2500 or more in the years I've worked for BA (Hand Solo)
A first year FO on the Scarebus at LHR (if you are good at leggo it could be you!) takes home £3,400 (Secret Squirral)
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I'm not. Some people may make that sort of cash at LHR, but it all depends on:
1) Basic pay (old A scale, DEP B scale or CEP B scale, there could easily be £20K difference in basic alone between these). Plus you may be a trainer so there's another increment.
2) Allowances. These depend on how good your roster is, more lucrative trips means a bigger pay packet, but they can be incredibly variable. A very good month might be £1500 to an FO, but a bad month could be £400. Or nothing if you've been on leave, reserve, sick. The flip side is the more time you spend away from home to get those allowances, the bigger your Diners Club bill at the end of the month, so you can knock several hundred quid off those figures.
3) Seniority. This is broadly linked to your basic pay scale, and dictates your ability to bid for the trips that will get you the most allowances, if that is how you choose to bid. It also allows you to achieve more time off if you want to bid for it, so that you will be more often be available for.....
4) Overtime. Nice if you can get it, but I'm usually far too busy.
One of the main problems with pay in BA is that due to the anachronistic system of pay and various allowances there can be enormous variations in pay on some fleets within just a few seniority points. There are plenty of senior long haul FOs earning more than junior short haul captains, and in some cases junior long haul captains. On top of that the pay system distorts the bidding process as people are compelled to bid for what will earn them enough cash rather than what they actually want to do, which means senior guys endless moaning about how bad NRT is (whilst raking in the cash) whilst the junior guys are stuck in Lagos for the fifth time that month on £2.80 per day.
1) Basic pay (old A scale, DEP B scale or CEP B scale, there could easily be £20K difference in basic alone between these). Plus you may be a trainer so there's another increment.
2) Allowances. These depend on how good your roster is, more lucrative trips means a bigger pay packet, but they can be incredibly variable. A very good month might be £1500 to an FO, but a bad month could be £400. Or nothing if you've been on leave, reserve, sick. The flip side is the more time you spend away from home to get those allowances, the bigger your Diners Club bill at the end of the month, so you can knock several hundred quid off those figures.
3) Seniority. This is broadly linked to your basic pay scale, and dictates your ability to bid for the trips that will get you the most allowances, if that is how you choose to bid. It also allows you to achieve more time off if you want to bid for it, so that you will be more often be available for.....
4) Overtime. Nice if you can get it, but I'm usually far too busy.
One of the main problems with pay in BA is that due to the anachronistic system of pay and various allowances there can be enormous variations in pay on some fleets within just a few seniority points. There are plenty of senior long haul FOs earning more than junior short haul captains, and in some cases junior long haul captains. On top of that the pay system distorts the bidding process as people are compelled to bid for what will earn them enough cash rather than what they actually want to do, which means senior guys endless moaning about how bad NRT is (whilst raking in the cash) whilst the junior guys are stuck in Lagos for the fifth time that month on £2.80 per day.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Englefield Green, Surrey, UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA recruitment
I was recently flying with a DEP of about 3 years in BA. We worked out since his time in BA he had lost about £ 200,000 (yes two hundred grand) by leaving his previous employer. This consisted of salary differential as he was a capt. in his old company, plus he had to forego some healthy share options. He as 2nd in command of a 747-400 was paid less than many of his own cabin crew.
For those that think they might have cracked it by joining BA on its major fleets ie 744 or 777, think again. The pay is the same as an A319, and you will be stuck at the bottom of the list getting the worst rosters for years. The plus side is that yes, you will eventually be a Longhaul capt in big airways, but is it worth the sacrifice. The gamble is , will things improve, I doubt it if you believe management when they say they get killed in the rush when the do recruit.
Regards All.
For those that think they might have cracked it by joining BA on its major fleets ie 744 or 777, think again. The pay is the same as an A319, and you will be stuck at the bottom of the list getting the worst rosters for years. The plus side is that yes, you will eventually be a Longhaul capt in big airways, but is it worth the sacrifice. The gamble is , will things improve, I doubt it if you believe management when they say they get killed in the rush when the do recruit.
Regards All.
Tucano:
"British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was."
For those of us with defective memories could you just remind us precisely when this was?
"It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed."
I would agree that for BA shareholders and employees it is in their interests that the company should succeed but why should the rest of us view BA any differently from, for example, BMI or easyJet?
"British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was."
For those of us with defective memories could you just remind us precisely when this was?
"It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed."
I would agree that for BA shareholders and employees it is in their interests that the company should succeed but why should the rest of us view BA any differently from, for example, BMI or easyJet?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To set the record straight about dosh ...... I'm a DEP on the Airbus at LHR, joined 2 years ago and averaged a take home last year of £2850 ....... Like many I took a pay cut to come here and threw away a jet command.
The overiding reason I joined was LIFESTYLE ...... I NEVER have a roster change unless its to take a trip off me and give me the day off ..... the only downside is approx 1.5 21 day reserve periods per year of being messed about.
The bid system favours seniority, which although I have as an FO on this fleet due my age (mid 30's) I will never have it on any other fleet, especially as a Capt. ...... BUT even on a 'blind line' I get to ask for days off and most people get 75% of what they ask for .... Most other companys do not even offer that ....
I will retire about 1200 seniority, probably never see a long haul command .....
If you have never flown out of LHR before on shorthaul think carefully .... Its hassle to get in and out from, hassle getting to and from the a/c and park park etc ..... although a lot of 4/5 day tours on the airbus if you don't mind being away ......
Another reason for me joining was the lure of a good final salary pension retiring at 55 ..... BUT if that has now gone think carefully before signing on the dotted line ....
Also, now the City Flyer guys are on the main list seniority and loads of people under 30 you may wait 8-10 years now days for a LHR shorthaul command ...... (was about 6 years if you joined 2 years ago ...) ....
Think carefully ..... Lifestyle is good BUT seniority and pension issues, plus huge impersonal company .... never fly with same people ....... ???
The overiding reason I joined was LIFESTYLE ...... I NEVER have a roster change unless its to take a trip off me and give me the day off ..... the only downside is approx 1.5 21 day reserve periods per year of being messed about.
The bid system favours seniority, which although I have as an FO on this fleet due my age (mid 30's) I will never have it on any other fleet, especially as a Capt. ...... BUT even on a 'blind line' I get to ask for days off and most people get 75% of what they ask for .... Most other companys do not even offer that ....
I will retire about 1200 seniority, probably never see a long haul command .....
If you have never flown out of LHR before on shorthaul think carefully .... Its hassle to get in and out from, hassle getting to and from the a/c and park park etc ..... although a lot of 4/5 day tours on the airbus if you don't mind being away ......
Another reason for me joining was the lure of a good final salary pension retiring at 55 ..... BUT if that has now gone think carefully before signing on the dotted line ....
Also, now the City Flyer guys are on the main list seniority and loads of people under 30 you may wait 8-10 years now days for a LHR shorthaul command ...... (was about 6 years if you joined 2 years ago ...) ....
Think carefully ..... Lifestyle is good BUT seniority and pension issues, plus huge impersonal company .... never fly with same people ....... ???
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: South London
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At present, I would only be too glad to be able to worry about who to sign for and who offered the best pay and conditions. Aged 19 (admittedly very young and probably overly concerned), I cannot see any way of realising my life long dream. There is no news of any airline (except klmuk) resuming sponsorship schemes and for the vast majority these schemes are realistically the only way we will ever be able to fly.
To have a hope of having a decent career covering a few a/c types and progressing from RHS to LHS and from shorthaul to longhaul, you need to join an airline before you are 30, maybe slightly earlier! I plan to go out and work after uni and save every penny, but if I need to save £80,000 to pay for my training it will never happen.
I would give my right leg (which would somewhat hamper a flying career) for the airlines to restart sponsorship schemes. A few years ago, BMI, Air 2000, KLMuk, BE, BA, Airtours, Aer Lingus and a few others all ran schemes and between them probably trained 300 - 400 students a year.
From where I am sitting (a grotty university computer lab) a shorthaul RHS on the Airbus fleet at LHR sounds like a dream come true, let alone a RHS for BE in a RJ100 or KLMuk on a F50. Frankly, as long as I could afford to pay a mortage, eat, clothe a family, and save the pennies to cover the supposed pension crisis, the rest is just trimmings. I would rather be flying than do a 9-5 desk job in London earning £60,000+ a year. I simply wouldn't be happy!
Fingers crossed the industry continues to pick up, that the airlines resume their sponsorship schemes, that the government doesn't drag its feet for another 8 years, like they did with T5, before granting more runways in the southeast, that Stephen Byers is sacked so that the transport department can get on with its job, and that I win the lottery and will not need to rely on sponsorship to fulfil my dreams.
To have a hope of having a decent career covering a few a/c types and progressing from RHS to LHS and from shorthaul to longhaul, you need to join an airline before you are 30, maybe slightly earlier! I plan to go out and work after uni and save every penny, but if I need to save £80,000 to pay for my training it will never happen.
I would give my right leg (which would somewhat hamper a flying career) for the airlines to restart sponsorship schemes. A few years ago, BMI, Air 2000, KLMuk, BE, BA, Airtours, Aer Lingus and a few others all ran schemes and between them probably trained 300 - 400 students a year.
From where I am sitting (a grotty university computer lab) a shorthaul RHS on the Airbus fleet at LHR sounds like a dream come true, let alone a RHS for BE in a RJ100 or KLMuk on a F50. Frankly, as long as I could afford to pay a mortage, eat, clothe a family, and save the pennies to cover the supposed pension crisis, the rest is just trimmings. I would rather be flying than do a 9-5 desk job in London earning £60,000+ a year. I simply wouldn't be happy!
Fingers crossed the industry continues to pick up, that the airlines resume their sponsorship schemes, that the government doesn't drag its feet for another 8 years, like they did with T5, before granting more runways in the southeast, that Stephen Byers is sacked so that the transport department can get on with its job, and that I win the lottery and will not need to rely on sponsorship to fulfil my dreams.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alpha Charlie:
What idiocy is this? You want to do the job for expenses only? Its fools like you that have seen pay in the industry reduced year on year for far too long already. I love flying, I really do, but I'm not prepared to see my profession sold down the river by people such as yourself.
The required training, the cost of said training, and the level of responsibility invloved in doing the job should determine the pay rate. Comparing pilots to other professions, I believe on those grounds we should be earning more than the average lawyer or accountant, and slightly less than the average doctor.
Lots of people want to be doctors - university places are massively oversubscribed, yet you don't hear people suggesting Doctors should have their salary reduced as a result. So don't do yourself and your potential colleagues down like that.
And to all of you namby-pamby tree-hugging types who'll tell me off for snapping at the guy on his first post - its you lot that seem able to rant for pages about how bad it is for BA CitiExpress to undercut BA mainline pilots, who shouldn't be undermining GB pilots, etc, etc.
Nip these stupid ideas in the bud while they're young I say!
Doesn't matter how much you love your job, never sell yourself short. Everyone else in the world isn't so nice, and they'll take your money away and walk all over you with a big smile on their face. Especially airline managers.
What idiocy is this? You want to do the job for expenses only? Its fools like you that have seen pay in the industry reduced year on year for far too long already. I love flying, I really do, but I'm not prepared to see my profession sold down the river by people such as yourself.
The required training, the cost of said training, and the level of responsibility invloved in doing the job should determine the pay rate. Comparing pilots to other professions, I believe on those grounds we should be earning more than the average lawyer or accountant, and slightly less than the average doctor.
Lots of people want to be doctors - university places are massively oversubscribed, yet you don't hear people suggesting Doctors should have their salary reduced as a result. So don't do yourself and your potential colleagues down like that.
And to all of you namby-pamby tree-hugging types who'll tell me off for snapping at the guy on his first post - its you lot that seem able to rant for pages about how bad it is for BA CitiExpress to undercut BA mainline pilots, who shouldn't be undermining GB pilots, etc, etc.
Nip these stupid ideas in the bud while they're young I say!
Doesn't matter how much you love your job, never sell yourself short. Everyone else in the world isn't so nice, and they'll take your money away and walk all over you with a big smile on their face. Especially airline managers.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Belgium
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Naughty Nigel,
I totally agree with you but..............
Dont you remember the time when you where young and dreaming of becomming a pilot? We all taught the same way as long as we where learning how to fly. It is only after you have been employed for a couple of years as a proffesional pilot that you are able to see that there are also a lot of disdvantages!
And indeed that too many airline managers tend to use this as an argument: you guys earn money while enjoying a hobby!
To Charlie: be patient. Things will change eventually. But one tip: do not make big expenses unless you are sure of a job! Here in Belgium young pilots payed over 74000€ for their training. Now they are on the market as jobless pilots, no type rating, 220Hours total time......No way to get hired! And they need to pay for licence renewals etc....
Wait!
I totally agree with you but..............
Dont you remember the time when you where young and dreaming of becomming a pilot? We all taught the same way as long as we where learning how to fly. It is only after you have been employed for a couple of years as a proffesional pilot that you are able to see that there are also a lot of disdvantages!
And indeed that too many airline managers tend to use this as an argument: you guys earn money while enjoying a hobby!
To Charlie: be patient. Things will change eventually. But one tip: do not make big expenses unless you are sure of a job! Here in Belgium young pilots payed over 74000€ for their training. Now they are on the market as jobless pilots, no type rating, 220Hours total time......No way to get hired! And they need to pay for licence renewals etc....
Wait!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: South London
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Naughty Nigel
You go ahead, shout me down (no sarcasm intended). This is a discussion forum and everyone is welcomed to their own opinion. I welcome you comments.
I admit that I am young and undoubtedly once in a job will see that the pay should be better for what a pilot does, but at present I believe that if an airline wants to pay £60,000 of its money to train me then I should give them loyalty and not be overly expectant on what they will give me once on line, I fully expect to be taken advantage of since they paid for the training. Most jobs are tough when you first start out.
I just think that at the moment, until the industry picks up, people should sit tight, be thankful they still have a job, and give the airlines a chance to recover before placing demands. Even for a uni graduate, a starting salary of £25,000ish rising to £32,000ish after five years and then upwards to about £60,000ish is an excellent pay structure.
You go ahead, shout me down (no sarcasm intended). This is a discussion forum and everyone is welcomed to their own opinion. I welcome you comments.
I admit that I am young and undoubtedly once in a job will see that the pay should be better for what a pilot does, but at present I believe that if an airline wants to pay £60,000 of its money to train me then I should give them loyalty and not be overly expectant on what they will give me once on line, I fully expect to be taken advantage of since they paid for the training. Most jobs are tough when you first start out.
I just think that at the moment, until the industry picks up, people should sit tight, be thankful they still have a job, and give the airlines a chance to recover before placing demands. Even for a uni graduate, a starting salary of £25,000ish rising to £32,000ish after five years and then upwards to about £60,000ish is an excellent pay structure.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the rez
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AC, I'll try to be diplomatic. Why do you think they are paying that large sum of money to train you? To do you a favour? That seems to be the way you feel. It is the way many pilots feel but if they didn't have to do it they wouldn't.
Airlines are in the business to make money. They aren't now or have they ever been in the business to a) provide you or anyone else with a job b) do you or anyone else any favours.
To make money they need to generate revenue. They do that by operating airplanes and putting bums in seats. Believe me if they could do it without those pesky pilots in the front they would. That money spent on your training comes back to them in spades when you get to the line and start generating revenue. Don't ever feel beholding to an airline for providing you with training. The airlines that charge their pilots for type training only do so because they can. When the pilots of the world get a grip and stop agreeing to it then it will stop.
You are a professional aviator, not a charity case.
Airlines are in the business to make money. They aren't now or have they ever been in the business to a) provide you or anyone else with a job b) do you or anyone else any favours.
To make money they need to generate revenue. They do that by operating airplanes and putting bums in seats. Believe me if they could do it without those pesky pilots in the front they would. That money spent on your training comes back to them in spades when you get to the line and start generating revenue. Don't ever feel beholding to an airline for providing you with training. The airlines that charge their pilots for type training only do so because they can. When the pilots of the world get a grip and stop agreeing to it then it will stop.
You are a professional aviator, not a charity case.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AC,
eight years after graduating, and Mr Pandora is on more than I will ever see as a BA captain. I currently earn less as a FO than I did as a mediocre graduate 5 years ago. I did not start in BA on £25000. (Even think about expenses and I'll not only get out my dictionary to explain what the word means, I'll send you a copy of my Diner's bill to prove it.) I have given 2 years of my life to BA for free. I will spend the first 5 years of my employment with them at a significantly reduced salary, and on top of that comes the double whammy payment of £250 per month for 5 years to cover training costs. At the end of my first 5 years in BA, trust me, they will have got more than their £60 grand's worth out of me. With the pension now in danger it is not the fianancially attractive occupation it once was.
Now don't get me wrong. I love my job. But that is what it is. It is the thing that has to put a roof over my head, feed me and clothe me. It is not a crime or a sin to enjoy the way you earn your money. My friends who (without exception) earn more than me don't spend so much time away from home, nor do they have to report for work at 5:30am. They don't worry about hijackers, engine failures, DVT and radiation, fatigue or jetlag.
If someone started suggesting that because being a lawyer is such a great job, and so many peolpe want to do it that they should start lowering the pay, there would be anarchy in the legal world. As pilots we are professionals and expect to be treated as such. That includes a wage which recognises our professional capacity. I would suggest that if you want to join this group of people you start behaving like a professional. Don't be so ready to sell yourself down the river because a moment of stupidity overtook you and you gave up your right to a comfortable life in exchange for the ability to fly.
At 19 you are young, so some on this site may cut you a little slack. But if you seriously believe I owe BA something because they trained me, you need your head examining. They didn't train me cause they were being nice. They trained me because they need pilots to fly their aircraft, and after extensive experience have found that one of the best ways of getting more pilots is to train them up. No one has yet found a place where pilots grow on trees. And if people weren't quite so willing to thow stupid amounts of money at training BA and other airlines would have to swallow a lot more of the cost.
eight years after graduating, and Mr Pandora is on more than I will ever see as a BA captain. I currently earn less as a FO than I did as a mediocre graduate 5 years ago. I did not start in BA on £25000. (Even think about expenses and I'll not only get out my dictionary to explain what the word means, I'll send you a copy of my Diner's bill to prove it.) I have given 2 years of my life to BA for free. I will spend the first 5 years of my employment with them at a significantly reduced salary, and on top of that comes the double whammy payment of £250 per month for 5 years to cover training costs. At the end of my first 5 years in BA, trust me, they will have got more than their £60 grand's worth out of me. With the pension now in danger it is not the fianancially attractive occupation it once was.
Now don't get me wrong. I love my job. But that is what it is. It is the thing that has to put a roof over my head, feed me and clothe me. It is not a crime or a sin to enjoy the way you earn your money. My friends who (without exception) earn more than me don't spend so much time away from home, nor do they have to report for work at 5:30am. They don't worry about hijackers, engine failures, DVT and radiation, fatigue or jetlag.
If someone started suggesting that because being a lawyer is such a great job, and so many peolpe want to do it that they should start lowering the pay, there would be anarchy in the legal world. As pilots we are professionals and expect to be treated as such. That includes a wage which recognises our professional capacity. I would suggest that if you want to join this group of people you start behaving like a professional. Don't be so ready to sell yourself down the river because a moment of stupidity overtook you and you gave up your right to a comfortable life in exchange for the ability to fly.
At 19 you are young, so some on this site may cut you a little slack. But if you seriously believe I owe BA something because they trained me, you need your head examining. They didn't train me cause they were being nice. They trained me because they need pilots to fly their aircraft, and after extensive experience have found that one of the best ways of getting more pilots is to train them up. No one has yet found a place where pilots grow on trees. And if people weren't quite so willing to thow stupid amounts of money at training BA and other airlines would have to swallow a lot more of the cost.