Norwegian Malaga Roster and new bases
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A large charge sheet !
The EU was set up on the premis that within the EU there would be the free movement of goods, services and labour within the EU.
I operate within the laws of the country that I live in and pay the taxes due, for this I expect to be able to excersise my right to trade freely within the EU just like you can.
Nothing I do is illegal and if the law is changed then I will adjust my working practices to comply with the laws as they stand. I can't speak for others but I am a contractor who has a number of income streams and so fall outside the employee category for tax.
I work hard obay the law and provide for my family........ If that is selfish then so be it.
It would seem to me that you seem to think that you should have some sort of assured income and working practices........... Sorry to tell you that life is not like that, to be successfully in a free society you have to work at it very hard.
The route that you seem to want to take is one of a protectionist state, that was tried in eastern Europe and it was so good the government had to put a wall up to keep all the westerners out.......... Well that's what they told the people !
I operate within the laws of the country that I live in and pay the taxes due, for this I expect to be able to excersise my right to trade freely within the EU just like you can.
Nothing I do is illegal and if the law is changed then I will adjust my working practices to comply with the laws as they stand. I can't speak for others but I am a contractor who has a number of income streams and so fall outside the employee category for tax.
I work hard obay the law and provide for my family........ If that is selfish then so be it.
It would seem to me that you seem to think that you should have some sort of assured income and working practices........... Sorry to tell you that life is not like that, to be successfully in a free society you have to work at it very hard.
The route that you seem to want to take is one of a protectionist state, that was tried in eastern Europe and it was so good the government had to put a wall up to keep all the westerners out.......... Well that's what they told the people !
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A&C,
I knew you wouldn't understand a thing when i mentioned morality.....
The model you defend, basically the Ryanair one, has shown its detrimental effects on our profession and T&Cs but please feel free to prove me wrong.
By the way I am very far from being a leftist but to my knowledge the economic turmoil and the decadence of our western system wasn't caused by Castro or North Corea but by greed and lack of morality.
What is legal in your country isn't necessarily legal in mine and it is immoral to exercise your own rights in someone elses country.
I knew you wouldn't understand a thing when i mentioned morality.....
The model you defend, basically the Ryanair one, has shown its detrimental effects on our profession and T&Cs but please feel free to prove me wrong.
By the way I am very far from being a leftist but to my knowledge the economic turmoil and the decadence of our western system wasn't caused by Castro or North Corea but by greed and lack of morality.
I operate within the laws of the country that I live in and pay the taxes due, for this I expect to be able to excersise my right to trade freely within the EU just like you can.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Europe
Age: 40
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a different note - I'm trying to get some more information on the 787 roles that Norwegian and/or agencies are advertising for.
What's the roster and pay like on that fleet? They seem to be asking for BKK based people, how many routes will there be from there? Commuting options to Europe?
Thanks!
What's the roster and pay like on that fleet? They seem to be asking for BKK based people, how many routes will there be from there? Commuting options to Europe?
Thanks!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: by the fire
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dannyalliga
You're missing the point of my post. Brussels have set up things so that SI is paid to the country you're based in. As always, they seem to do things in the most perverse of ways. Remove the emotive RYR contractor stuff (I don't work for them - for the record). Consider the pilots employed (full-time) by DHL UK in LEJ. They now have to pay their SI in Germany. If they haven't moved families out to Leipzig and they lose their job, where do they claim their benefits? Prior to this ruling it was simple. Bog off back to UK, where you've paid in, and claim there. If they claim in Germany I believe they're only entitled to claim for 3 months (EU rule) unless actually resident. So if you pay in for quite some time, and not a local you don't get back anywhere near what you put in. Do they have enough SI paid in to receive the enhanced UK pension by paying into the German scheme? I don't know. If they are I bet it won't be straightforward to prove.
I also guess that UK based pilots from other EU countries will be delighted to hear that HMG has thought about rolling National Insurance (UK SI) into general taxation - they don't keep it separate in reality. You won't be paying for your insurance / pension, you'll be paying for chavs to visit you while on their holidays in your home-town, or space rockets in India, or any other item of crackpot spending HMG does.
The stuff about contractors and RYR is something we could probably all say something against. This thread is meant to be about providing information to prospective pilots for Norwegian (probably the next big contractor-based way of undermining industry Ts and Cs). Meanwhile you seem to have hi-jacked it in order to push a pro-EU line about payments of SI which doesn't really help people in their quest to find out how long a spoon to use when supping with this particular devil. Can you not just leave it for a different thread?
You're missing the point of my post. Brussels have set up things so that SI is paid to the country you're based in. As always, they seem to do things in the most perverse of ways. Remove the emotive RYR contractor stuff (I don't work for them - for the record). Consider the pilots employed (full-time) by DHL UK in LEJ. They now have to pay their SI in Germany. If they haven't moved families out to Leipzig and they lose their job, where do they claim their benefits? Prior to this ruling it was simple. Bog off back to UK, where you've paid in, and claim there. If they claim in Germany I believe they're only entitled to claim for 3 months (EU rule) unless actually resident. So if you pay in for quite some time, and not a local you don't get back anywhere near what you put in. Do they have enough SI paid in to receive the enhanced UK pension by paying into the German scheme? I don't know. If they are I bet it won't be straightforward to prove.
I also guess that UK based pilots from other EU countries will be delighted to hear that HMG has thought about rolling National Insurance (UK SI) into general taxation - they don't keep it separate in reality. You won't be paying for your insurance / pension, you'll be paying for chavs to visit you while on their holidays in your home-town, or space rockets in India, or any other item of crackpot spending HMG does.
The stuff about contractors and RYR is something we could probably all say something against. This thread is meant to be about providing information to prospective pilots for Norwegian (probably the next big contractor-based way of undermining industry Ts and Cs). Meanwhile you seem to have hi-jacked it in order to push a pro-EU line about payments of SI which doesn't really help people in their quest to find out how long a spoon to use when supping with this particular devil. Can you not just leave it for a different thread?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: by the fire
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
md11man
In a particular part of the sandpit, there are many finding the going tough, the flying hard and decisions erratic. Despite a general exodus from that place to any other place that'll have them, the Norwegian 787 contract in BKK doesn't seem to be one that (m)any go to. Read into that what you will....
In a particular part of the sandpit, there are many finding the going tough, the flying hard and decisions erratic. Despite a general exodus from that place to any other place that'll have them, the Norwegian 787 contract in BKK doesn't seem to be one that (m)any go to. Read into that what you will....
Last edited by spanner the cat; 3rd Nov 2012 at 23:09.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not that simple !
As stated above the problems come when no base is permanent, my base can change and has. So just like the people above who want their lives run by the EU and want their pensions and state health insurance devided up and administered by four or five different EU states I shall quote part of the EU legislation pulled from the UK government site................
If a very strict application of the new rule would harm a crew member's situation because their 'Home Base'often changes, and this would mean them frequently moving between the Social Security legislation of different states, then they or their employer can apply for a special agreement to keep the person subject to the legislation of a single state.
If a very strict application of the new rule would harm a crew member's situation because their 'Home Base'often changes, and this would mean them frequently moving between the Social Security legislation of different states, then they or their employer can apply for a special agreement to keep the person subject to the legislation of a single state.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeingisgoing
I do totally understand the tax implications of all of this for a UK resident.
Now if you understood the way EU directives become law in individual EU states you would start to understand why the whole system is an unworkable mess.
Rather than venting your anger on the likes of Ryanair who just exploit the law as it stands you need to talk to the idiots at the EU who set up a system that ensures that each EU state has a slightly different interpretation of the same EU directive.
Now if you understood the way EU directives become law in individual EU states you would start to understand why the whole system is an unworkable mess.
Rather than venting your anger on the likes of Ryanair who just exploit the law as it stands you need to talk to the idiots at the EU who set up a system that ensures that each EU state has a slightly different interpretation of the same EU directive.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A&C,
Ryanair does not exploit the law as it stands otherwise it wouldn't be under investigation as reported here: Today in the press - RT News
And this is not a one of a kind investigation, the French have done the same in Marseille.
It all revolves around the definition of " permanent establishment " , it will be interesting to see if Ryanair and alikes will manage to convince Italian judges in this case that around 40 aircraft and thousands of crew permanently based in Italy with plenty of domestic services have nothing to do with Italian laws, social security and taxes......
Ryanair does not exploit the law as it stands otherwise it wouldn't be under investigation as reported here: Today in the press - RT News
And this is not a one of a kind investigation, the French have done the same in Marseille.
It all revolves around the definition of " permanent establishment " , it will be interesting to see if Ryanair and alikes will manage to convince Italian judges in this case that around 40 aircraft and thousands of crew permanently based in Italy with plenty of domestic services have nothing to do with Italian laws, social security and taxes......
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyagilla
You are jumping the gun!. No one is guilty of an offence untill it has been proven in a court of law, at the moment Ryanair is only under investigation and this has yet to come to court.
Due to EU law you might will find that people working on Irish aircraft are subject to Irish regulation due to the regulations covering the free movement of Goods, services and labour within the EU.
I have no time for the protectionism of the regional Italian govenments who had a hand in the bankrupting of Debonair when they stopped the airline operating internaly in Italy, this decision was found to be unjust in court and the governments of the Italian states had to pay compensation, Unfortunatly the airline had gone bust and a lot of people ( including me) had lost their jobs.
I know that you want to find Ryanair guilty but you can't just yet !
Due to EU law you might will find that people working on Irish aircraft are subject to Irish regulation due to the regulations covering the free movement of Goods, services and labour within the EU.
I have no time for the protectionism of the regional Italian govenments who had a hand in the bankrupting of Debonair when they stopped the airline operating internaly in Italy, this decision was found to be unjust in court and the governments of the Italian states had to pay compensation, Unfortunatly the airline had gone bust and a lot of people ( including me) had lost their jobs.
I know that you want to find Ryanair guilty but you can't just yet !
Last edited by A and C; 5th Nov 2012 at 22:43.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyagilla, What you claim to be illegal is simply not the case. You have nothing to back up your claims. The issues you claim are illegal and immoral are not just confined to aviation, multinationals from all sectors use the tax and employment loop holes in the law to maximize profits. Take the loop holes out and multinationals just move on leading to large scale unemployment. Governments won't do this. This issue is global. The Sunday Times yesterday claimed that Apple's foreign tax rate was below 2%.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys just wait and see, as I said it all revolves around the concept of "permanent establishment" and it will be for Ryanair and alikes to prove that they have absolutely nothing to do with Italy.
And it will be for the judges to determine if 10 bases, around 40 aircraft and 1000s of staff are absolutely ok to work and often live in a country where they ,according to Ryanair, are not subject to any local law.
I appreciate the concept A&C and I even support it, having said that I knew Adolf Eichmann was guilty well before the Israelis brought him to justice.
And it will be for the judges to determine if 10 bases, around 40 aircraft and 1000s of staff are absolutely ok to work and often live in a country where they ,according to Ryanair, are not subject to any local law.
No one is guilty of an offence untill it has been proven in a court of law, at the moment Ryanair is only under investigation and this has yet to come to court.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair's next move !
Let's assume that the Italian courts win the case against Ryanair, Dannyagilla opens the Champagne to celebrate a nail in the coffin of the evil Irish aviation empire but what is next ?
My guess is that Ryanair will chop and change the crews between bases taking advantage of the Frequent change of base part of the social tax legislation and confusing all the Europan income tax authority's with paperwork that they can't keep up with.
So who wins, not the tax authority's, not those who collect the social tax, not the crews who now are all on a floating base.............. Yes you guessed it Ryanair !! And all because those slow witted idiots in Brussels can't get one law to stick across the EU.
My guess is that Ryanair will chop and change the crews between bases taking advantage of the Frequent change of base part of the social tax legislation and confusing all the Europan income tax authority's with paperwork that they can't keep up with.
So who wins, not the tax authority's, not those who collect the social tax, not the crews who now are all on a floating base.............. Yes you guessed it Ryanair !! And all because those slow witted idiots in Brussels can't get one law to stick across the EU.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here you can find your answer to your "floating base" concept, it comes from those idiots in Brusselles:
By the way, dear A&C, you talk about crews like if they were objects that can be moved around without any mutual agreement, sent to this base or another without asking their opinion....a perfect ryanair boy.
There are countries where workers must be treated like humans by law, unlike Ireland.....
the concept of “home base” for flight crew and cabin crew members is defined as the location nominated by the operator to the crew member from where the crew member normally starts and ends a duty period, or a series of duty periods, and where, under normal conditions, the operator is not responsible for the accommodation of the crew member concerned. In order to facilitate the application of Title II of this Regulation for flight crew and cabin crew members, it is justified to use the concept of “home base” as the criterion for determining the applicable legislation for flight crew and cabin crew members. However, the applicable legislation for flight crew and cabin crew members should remain stable and the home base principle should not result in frequent changes of applicable legislation due to the industry’s work patterns or seasonal demands
There are countries where workers must be treated like humans by law, unlike Ireland.....
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyagilla
I don't support the Ryanair model but am just speculating as to the airlines next move.
Dannyagilla your problem is just like the flat footed regulators at the EU you fail to see the holes in the legislation that Raynair walk through and then sit around wringing you hands, taking deep breaths and muttering on about moral issues.
You seem very keen on the EU, but the problem they have failed to address is that of harmonizing EU legislation, until the EU do something nothing will change.
From my point of view I hope the UK will withdraw from the over expensive joke that the EU is and just run with a free trade agreement with the EU.
Dannyagilla your problem is just like the flat footed regulators at the EU you fail to see the holes in the legislation that Raynair walk through and then sit around wringing you hands, taking deep breaths and muttering on about moral issues.
You seem very keen on the EU, but the problem they have failed to address is that of harmonizing EU legislation, until the EU do something nothing will change.
From my point of view I hope the UK will withdraw from the over expensive joke that the EU is and just run with a free trade agreement with the EU.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A&C,
the EU,which I am absolutely not a supporter of, might have many legislation holes but the various countries don't.
In Italy, for example, it is illegal to be a self employed pilot as well as it is illegal to subcontract workers unless you are an officially approved contracting agency and even then such practices are limited in time.
Same story goes for France where these immoral practices have been fought and won in court.
Having the UK withdraw from the EU could also mean that companies like Easyjet or DHL UK would have to go home and start making a living from their own internal market instead of exploiting the markets away from home by basing aircraft and crews abroad.
the EU,which I am absolutely not a supporter of, might have many legislation holes but the various countries don't.
In Italy, for example, it is illegal to be a self employed pilot as well as it is illegal to subcontract workers unless you are an officially approved contracting agency and even then such practices are limited in time.
Same story goes for France where these immoral practices have been fought and won in court.
Having the UK withdraw from the EU could also mean that companies like Easyjet or DHL UK would have to go home and start making a living from their own internal market instead of exploiting the markets away from home by basing aircraft and crews abroad.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyagilla
So are you a supporter of the protectionism that two decades ago had the cost of flight between London and Scandinavia cost more than a flight to the USA ?
Is your beef really with Ryanair who do things efficiently and within the laws of the state it is registered (and all other EU states untill proved otherwise in court) or is it with the airlines in the southern European states who can't compeat in a free market without protectionisum from the government.
Is your beef really with Ryanair who do things efficiently and within the laws of the state it is registered (and all other EU states untill proved otherwise in court) or is it with the airlines in the southern European states who can't compeat in a free market without protectionisum from the government.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contractors have been adviced that the 5-4-5-3 roster will seize on January 1st. It has already happened to those that were forced to LPA.
In the future it will be a variable roster with 12 days off pr month and one 3 day block + one 4 day block off.
In the future it will be a variable roster with 12 days off pr month and one 3 day block + one 4 day block off.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed, except . . changes to the contract must be by "mutual agreement"
( don't think that is likely) or, they must serve 1 mths notice on the current 3 year contract & hope we all apply for the new (un)enhanced one.
Added to the way they handled/allocated forced Base changes, the "new" interpretation of what constitutes an annual leave day, & the way tax & social security issues "may" be handled , I could envisage a scenario where the rush to get in the door reverts to one in the other direction, particularly by those who joined on the premise that commuting from one end of Europe to the other would be facilitated by the company providing free flights, AND a fixed pattern roster.
( don't think that is likely) or, they must serve 1 mths notice on the current 3 year contract & hope we all apply for the new (un)enhanced one.
Added to the way they handled/allocated forced Base changes, the "new" interpretation of what constitutes an annual leave day, & the way tax & social security issues "may" be handled , I could envisage a scenario where the rush to get in the door reverts to one in the other direction, particularly by those who joined on the premise that commuting from one end of Europe to the other would be facilitated by the company providing free flights, AND a fixed pattern roster.
Last edited by captplaystation; 8th Nov 2012 at 09:58.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A&C,
You are most definitely on the payroll of MOL, listening to what you say is like attending one if those pathetic base visits where they keep on telling you how good they are and how you should be happy to work for them....
I'm against UNFAIR, IMMORAL and ILLEGAL working practices, do you understand that or should I remind you what a self employed job really should be? Or what an LTD director really should be doing?Or what it legally means having hundreds of aircraft,crew rooms and crews based permanently in other countries?
You rant about protectionism,ticket prices and inability of others to compete but there isn't a company more protectionist of its illegal status, that wants people to believe that it's normal to fly for 10€ and that fears a fair level of competition than Ryanair.
Norwegian is hiring cabin crew for their new Gatwick base, they talk about a permanent job, about a basic salary in local money etc......all things that an immoral and illegal company like Ryanair would avoid offering.
France has proven them illegal, Italy is next on line. Let's hope Others will follow.
Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA Cabin Crew - Cabin Crew London Gatwick
You are most definitely on the payroll of MOL, listening to what you say is like attending one if those pathetic base visits where they keep on telling you how good they are and how you should be happy to work for them....
I'm against UNFAIR, IMMORAL and ILLEGAL working practices, do you understand that or should I remind you what a self employed job really should be? Or what an LTD director really should be doing?Or what it legally means having hundreds of aircraft,crew rooms and crews based permanently in other countries?
You rant about protectionism,ticket prices and inability of others to compete but there isn't a company more protectionist of its illegal status, that wants people to believe that it's normal to fly for 10€ and that fears a fair level of competition than Ryanair.
Norwegian is hiring cabin crew for their new Gatwick base, they talk about a permanent job, about a basic salary in local money etc......all things that an immoral and illegal company like Ryanair would avoid offering.
France has proven them illegal, Italy is next on line. Let's hope Others will follow.
Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA Cabin Crew - Cabin Crew London Gatwick