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Easyjet Recruitment

Old 17th Aug 2012, 10:53
  #121 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 942
Mr Mugabe - I do not accept the premise that flexicrew is here to stay. Nor do I accept the premise that all our managers are greedy scum etc, as advocated as fact by some on here. What I do believe is that a window of opportunity exists in September to deal with the Flexicrew issue - the Company know it and are therefore refusing permanent contracts until the quid-pro-quo discussions have occurred. This is hard-nosed business at work, and frankly I do not blame them. It seems to me a sensible tactic to use your biggest lever to get what you want. Similarly BALPA have to use their best leverage to sort out the issue to their greatest advantage.

For what it is worth, I originally thought that we should have gone for the flexicrew deal at the same time as the pay deal. In retrospect, I think it was better to do it now when the issue takes centre stage - as it should. This is sortable if we have the resolve to see it through. There will be some hard horse-trading, but it is doable nonetheless.
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 13:46
  #122 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 182
A4 times have changed. For what it's worth I did/am doing exactly that long winded route to the jet and have loved every bit! Can't recommend it enough and wouldn't change a thing! I'm probably a better aviator for it too. BUT... If a route like this existed (which it does) and you can get to the pointy end of a jet (which you can) and your apprenticeship is on a jet (which it is), but arguably still getting more money than an instructor (which you do) and more relevant experience and ultimately cutting down the time to a descent job.... Why wouldn't you?

To say people shouldn't take that opertunity is madness! You too would probably take the same one if times were different in your day. It is not the fault of people taking the jobs and if that is your fight you will never win.

BALPA and you people in the company with permanent jobs and descent contracts are the only ones with any power to fight. Don't ask the weakest to fight. That is never gonna work.

And fight I hope someone does!
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 16:11
  #123 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Huh huh huh ... what was the question again?
Posts: 308
We've been going round in the same circle since Flexicrew first reared its ugly head, that circle being the present feel powerless and the future can't say no. The horse bolted when Flexicrew was first accepted and yet we still haven't even shut the door (Lisbon?). I admire your enthusiasm Adm but I too am struggling to see why the management would even contemplate giving up Flexicrew. That said, I sincerely hope they do.
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 18:31
  #124 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: London
Age: 31
Posts: 574
Why would easyJet give up flexicrew? They have it far too good. Lots of eager f/o's only paid when they fly in the summer, stand a few down in winter to balance out the seasonality, no pension provision, FRV. Why would they want to give this up?!
easyJet want more flexibility, from captains and fo's, they have it from the fo's and before they will entertain permanent contract contracts for these fo's they will want captains to become more flexible. Never gonna happen! I wouldn't expect them to either. Why should they?
Yep Balpa are advising us to look around, fastjet and wizzair were mentioned.
Flexicrew was something that needed to be nipped in the bud right at the start, its too late to stop it now. All that can be done is limit it.
What are they forecasting to make this year, 300 million I believe. Very robust figures with the strong economic headwinds.
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 19:49
  #125 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Yes, but soon this flexi crew will extend to the left seat too. Then EZY will have all the flexibility it likes.
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 20:13
  #126 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Originally posted by AdM:
This is one we should never, ever have allowed to happen and it is now a really hard one to fight.
Nonetheless, there are numerous pilots willing to go on strike to sort this should the need arise.
Oh dear, don't tell me that our beloved direct entry, management *ss kissing, dark orange spectacled senior training captain has finally seen the light?

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Old 17th Aug 2012, 20:37
  #127 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 3,681
I really don't think that BALPA or anyone else will ever be able to do anything about the current flexi-crew phenomenon.

As a youngster who was absolutely determined to have a career in aviation and having parents who were very poor, I had to work hard at school and in other places to get into Mrs Windsor's airline. I was successfull and I had a bloody good 18 years of experience before starting on a long career in civil aviation. I was obviously in the right place at the right time for I never ever had to pay for a type-rating.

I find it quite hard to get my head around today's situation.

The wannabees are doing their level best to blame the old farts for allowing things like P2F to happen in the first place. The old farts really can't understand how the wannabees got into this situation and have allowed themselves to get into such debt in the first place. Why should any experienced captain about to retire be even interested.

I was recently directed by a friend to the Bush Pilots (in Botswana) TV series. I have to say that I am still incredulous.

Why in God's name would anyone want to spend 90,000 so that they can live as an illegal immigrant on a tourist visa in a tent in Maun for months and then go through a ridiculous selection procedure just to get the chance to fly a Cessna 206 around a lot of (not very challenging) strips? (By the way, I have 400 hours on the Cessna 206 and the Cessna 210 and I enjoyed flying them but that was for fun in my spare time).

The Top Dog in the TV series was off to Valhalla - Airbus 320 F/O in Qatar. What a result. (I used to avoid Doha like the plague).

So, what the hell is going on? Why are so many young men and women so willing to throw themselves at mosquito nets in Botswana? (By the way, I've also done Botswana, Swazi etc with Aunty Betty before you ask).

The fact of the matter is that they have discovered that having a Degree in Underwater Knitting as recommended by Mr Blair and his merry people is as much use as tits on a bull when we get down to practicalities and they simply do not fancy a career stacking shelves in Tescos.

These young people have huge latent talent which is available to any employer that is prepared to take them on but they simply cannot get a foot into a decent door. They have a great urge to do something interesting and which has a bit of a challenge (and a future). Flying aeroplanes has always been an interesting occupation and so it is that they discover the Bank of Mum and Dad.

Now, the sad thing is that modern "airline managers" are about as trustworthy as the Royal Bank of Scotland and they are only interested in the current financial week/month/year.

To a huge extent, they have invented HR (Human Remains) to do all of their dirty work for them so that they don't even ever have to talk to a pilot.

The days when I could walk up the stairs without notice after a trip and have a pretty direct conversation with Fred Laker have sadly gone.

So, what has gone wrong?

I can only guess, but my suspicions centre around the last government's aim of having 50% of the population passing out of their "education system" with university degrees. The subject did not appear to matter.

I reckon that anyone who ignored this advice and became a plumber would have made a fortune by now.

It might even be that simple. Make flying a rubbish occupation and make plumbing a wonderful occupation.

I have to tell all of the usual promising and unpromising hysterics on these forums that you are beating your gums to absolutely no effect if you think you are going to change anything by complaining on PPRuNe. You have to do something radical.

I will give you an example; one of the funniest guys that I ever flew with was GN. He had a great outlook on life and he was also a great practical joker.

He wanted to join Laker Airways right at the very beginning (he was a DC-3 F/O with Derby Airways at the time). He was getting nowhere with the usual "send a CV" programme so he set up a camp bed right outside Fred Laker's office door and got into a sleeping bag.

Fred stepped over him for three days and eventually gave up and gave him a job. It took GN a while to get into the left seat but he was No.1 on the seniority list until the end!
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 20:47
  #128 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: The Harvest Moon
Posts: 1,451
I'm one of the fat rich 110k captains alluded to above.

I was a flying instructor.

I spent two years on a Jetstream 31.

10 years on the 737, 5 years on the 319.

I've got 20,000 hours.

I reckon I earned the right to be here and don't consider myself overpaid for what I do, or the experience I bring to the job and share with my flexicrew F/O.

Im not intending to "give something up".

Perhaps somebody could explain to me why I should?
Rocket Ron is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2012, 21:00
  #129 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 182
Don't give anything up! That would be ridiculous because that would mean flexi is having even more negative effects.

You CAN complain about the levels of experience, complain to your managers about the conditions that your crew are suffering, complain that you don't believe it is safe, complain that it increases your workload. Just complain because you are someone they have to listen too. You are an immensely valuable asset, highly qualified and highly trained in a respected position.

Obviously only complain if you care. If you don't... well then don't! Might be your 110k next thou!
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 23:46
  #130 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South now...
Age: 38
Posts: 243
We do complain about it, to all the relevant managers all the way up to the boss herself. The point you seem to be unable to grasp about it is that THEY DON'T CARE! Sorry, but they don't, they don't listen to our sound reasons why flexi is bad for the crews and the company in the long run, it would impact the bottom line and thus the management bonus. Unless something major happens they will not care about the terms and conditions they set as long as there are still people willing to sign up for the terms they create.

Last edited by Wing_Bound_Vortex; 17th Aug 2012 at 23:47.
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Old 17th Aug 2012, 23:51
  #131 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Your certainly not overpaid but do you not feel undersold Ron. Your basic salary isnt 110k, its dependant on a few factors With all that experience you would be on a lot more at BA, for a much better lifestyle, even more at a European base with ezy.
Really you have the rough deal. Why are you on so much less than your colleagues?
You claim it's not your problem, yet the European bases wouldn't stand for your salary never mind flexi crew. Perhaps they see the future if flexi crew arrived. Do you really think future captains will be on your deal? When there are enough flexi crew idiots in the left seat could they base everyone in LIS and night stop you?
This is the problem with the sloping shoulders, eventually it will affect you. Once the rot creeps in its endemic.
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Old 18th Aug 2012, 00:26
  #132 (permalink)  
Robert G Mugabe
Posts: n/a
You claim it's not your problem, yet the European bases wouldn't stand for your salary never mind flexi crew. Perhaps they see the future if flexi crew arrived. Do you really think future captains will be on your deal? When there are enough flexi crew idiots in the left seat could they base everyone in LIS and night stop you?
Couple of problems with above

1. When Euro crew bases become too expensive or union demands become excessive bye bye Euro bases ( Madrid today Paris/Berlin tomorrow )

2. When there are enough flexicrew in both seats they will probably base them in LGW and nightstop you in Europe.

3. How much will your salary be worth in Escudos, Lira , Pesetas and Francs?

4. They wont be on my deal.
Old 18th Aug 2012, 09:02
  #133 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 530
Many of my friends and colleagues had the choice to take a permanent European contract but snubbed them because they wanted to have their cake and eat it i.e. live in the UK. It was their chance to show dedication, take on some hardship and 'do something they didn't want to have to do'. But now it's some pathetic indulgence to live in your girlfriends pocket and be able to 'ga dan wevaspoons on a friii day nigh'. They turned their back on the OPPORTUNITY, showed their cards and thus showed their worth. For exploiting that you can not blame the managers. Not when they are financially incentivised. Even now I've had job offers for the A320 in some pretty nice places around the world as well as the possibility to change aircraft types. It's like they can't think outside the CTC bubble I.e. The UK. They aren't handicapped, they have a useful qualification - the only thing stopping them is the same thing that brought them here in the first place - the pursuit of instant gratification. And now many are off to Monarch. Join the dots.
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Old 18th Aug 2012, 09:34
  #134 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: EU
Age: 43
Posts: 755
1. When Euro crew bases become too expensive or union demands become excessive bye bye Euro bases ( Madrid today Paris/Berlin tomorrow )
They were only able to close MAD because the government changed the legislation on redundancy in order to free up the economy. All that's happened is companies have taken a scythe to workforces in Spain. Prior to that it was virtually impossible (read very expensive) to make people redundant.

In addition MAD was horrendously expensive and not making any money. France on the other hand they make loads of it.
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Old 18th Aug 2012, 12:21
  #135 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 942
BlackandBrown - I am not sure I completely agree with your take on the issue, but your very witty post really made me laugh!
Alexander de Meerkat is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2012, 12:56
  #136 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: The Harvest Moon
Posts: 1,451

I was paraphrasing the earlier post regarding the 110k. The total package for me from October is not far short of 140k if I include the Company pension contribution. Still not a King's Ransom but I get to sleep in my own bed every night, that's worth everything to me.

Probably what will happen is that flexicrew will eventually outnumber "old contract" captains like me, just as it is with the first officers now. Once we are in the minority the company will start chipping away at our Ts & Cs, just like has happened at Ryanair.

I love the work here at easyJet, I've got 11 years to go and hope I don't get to the stage of counting the days. My fear is that the Company are about to start counting my days.
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Old 18th Aug 2012, 13:31
  #137 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Why quote pension etc? Generally people deal with what they are paid every month. And sadly Europe leave the UK far behind. Ironic as here is where it all started.
And sadly I agree. A few good friends at ezy, all with 14 years or more service, are convinced they won't be on their good package forever.
Has the disparity ever been broached by BALPA?
sk8erboi is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2012, 14:06
  #138 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: The Harvest Moon
Posts: 1,451
If you ask anybody in Europe about the "disparity" they'll tell you it's all down to the exchange rate.

Thanks for your concern but there are plenty of people out there who would love to be where I am now, and I don't count my chickens. If it gets bad, I can always leave and stack shelves in B&Q. If my pension doesn't perform then that's exactly what I'll be doing anyway.
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Old 18th Aug 2012, 16:11
  #139 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Bartholomew Arms
Posts: 204
not if I get there first! At least we won't have to change our uniforms
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Old 18th Aug 2012, 17:49
  #140 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 160
Hasn't an above inflation pay rise just been agreed this year for permanent contract pilots!?? This does little to suggest a slide in Ts and Cs. Why all the doom and gloom?

Whilst I would imagine it is clear to many, in answer to sk8erboi's question - it is better to include the value of the pension in your summing up of the value of a contract. It may be a better package to have a lower salary and a good pension on top (and very often is). Less income tax on gross salary, tax breaks on pension contributions, and a company contribution to your pension - all of which could add up to a higher level of money in your pocket over your lifetime.

That doesn't change the UK vs Europe contract issue within the orange airline though, as the pensions are generally better in the European bases too.

Last edited by Full Left Rudder; 18th Aug 2012 at 17:51.
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