BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

[757_Driver]

nobody actually wants to fly to scotland, otherwise the aircraft that do wouldn't be 1/2 empty at the moment

Wrong on both counts. You've obviously not flown up and down much recently.. Hotlines are nearly £200 and I've been on the j/s more often than not lately.

that bit, and the branson bit was meant tongue-in-cheek . I was merely making the point that alot of fuss was made about competion but now its piss-or-get-off-the-pot-time, its likely that nobody is going to come forwards and take those slots, depite all the bluster

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Funny that the BRITISH AIRWAYS Connect lot were merged into the Flybe seniority list when they were taken over.

Now the shoe is on the other hand it smells a funny colour doesn't it?!

One rule for BA, another rule for BA.

[Propellerhead]

I rest my case!

[BlackandBrown]

Yes but they are basically the flying labour party. Of course it's a case of do as I say not as I do.

[sudden twang]

MuttelyJ
BASSA always look over the the fence to the BACC.
It seems that this is no exception. Everything you've said about the bmi boys is what your pilots already have with mixed fleet.
One question though to the wider audience,
if you believe a bmi pilot should have DOJ for seniority then how can you justify the bmicc not deciding how an excess of pilots is dealt with from the bmi group not just mainline? I understand it's bmir pilots who fly some of the slots into and out of LHR.
And as for loyalty, many chose to leave bmi for a better future at a financial and personal cost for long term gain . Those who didn't backed the wrong horse and now expect to collect their winnings.

[Phil.Capron]

Transfer of Undertaking or Acquisition of Assets

Does anyone remember which airlines these phrases refer to?....And now there's BMI.I'm pretty sure that IAG/BA know the difference between the phrases and you can be sure their lawyers are setting up the BMI arrangement,in that respect,to be just what they want.They have stated that there will be job losses.Their largesse will only extend to what they want out of it,basically the LHR slots.They would rather maybe the rest just went away.
Because of the above,DOJ seniority (Does adjusted FO date still mean anything to anybody?) is simply unrealistic and the BA pilots scope clause (good job guys)
with their T&C commitments will see to it that it won't happen.
Take the seniority deal with all the usual freezes and protections and look forward to the future.
Remember that the seniority system,conversion agreement and Bidline are often complained about but they continue to be what makes BA so good.
(Well it was in my day!)
ATB and keep the sunny side up.

[Anton du Flasheart]

757 Driver,
You seem to have missed to point of BA buying bmi (slots) in the first place.
Firstly, only a small proportion of bmi is domestic - and that proportion doesn't appear to be efficient, so combining it with BA will make it more efficient and free up slots.
Some of the other flying is competeing with BA, which can clearly generate more slots.
Some of the rest is actually financially productive ( or could be made so ).
Some is just unviable and will surely disappear.
A lot of slots can therefore be produced to change to crew greedy LH. Add in that BA have stated a very large number for desired recruiting ( double what all of bmi could provide ), and the viability of the deal seems clear.

[757_Driver]

i haven't missed the point at all.

BACCs origonal discussions with IAG / BA were based around an assumption of BA getting 100% of the slots, we are now only getting 75%. Assuming getting 100% of the slots made the deal viable, and getting 0% of the slots (but 100% of the liabilities) is not viable, there is a point somewhere in between that the deal falls apart. I was merely asking where that was.
Something is going to have to be revisited now we are only being allowed to take on 75% of the slots. I don't know what that is - but all the good calculations that went into our orignonal vote and £10m savings were based on an set of conditions which is now incorrect. I've got no idea wether giving up those slots makes a huge difference or next to nothing.

All those good things you mentioned are medium / long term gains (where are the long haul aircraft coming from? who's going to train the new pilots - cranebank is maxxed for the next year with the BMI courses etc etc). Short term we need to survive, in order to get to the medium / long term benefit.

Of course all this could be moot, as branson is talking about apealing the decision, and I've got a feeling that if that happens IAG and Lufty will just walk away from the deal, nobody wants to sit around throwing a million a day on the fire whilst branson struts around the EU courts. In reality I suspect branson is having a bit of shakedown, as he knows what the implications of an appeal are and I reckon he's behind the scenes trying to extract some more out of IAG and Lufty.

[wurlizter]

I would like to say thank goodness for the merger/takeover. It has been a really worrying time for many at BMI and it seems that there is still some uncertainty as to who or how many will be going to BA.
I hope something will be pulled out of the bag for my friends at Baby and Regional, good luck.

I completely understand how some BA pilots feel about a zipped seniority list.
After years of loyal service to BMI, when we were integrated into BMED, I went tumbling down the seniority list and lost my chance to fly the 330. I believe that I was disadvantaged! Now this is not BA's fault or problem but if the integration is handled differently it's Balpa HQ that needs to answer the questions how/why?

I would like to work for a company that will offer me security, decent pay and a future to look forward too. I do believe it is right to have DOJ for redundancy and staff travel, at least my years of working for the company will count for something. If that means I'm put to the back of the seniority list (again), I'm ok with that.

It could have been so good at BMI, but a mixture of poor management decisions, Lufthansa never wanting us and a bit of bad luck has left us in this unfortunate position. I'm tired of the "will we be here next year feeling" and it would be nice to sit up look forward to the future.
Someone mentioned about flying to ****holes in Africa? Well they might not have been the nicest of places but the crews made the trips and I'll miss that.

I will miss the people and that was BMI's GREATEST asset it's people. Pity no one at the top of the company thought or cared about them.

So I"m looking forward to BA, bring it on.

[No walkover]

757 Driver

Are you for real???

You sound like a broken record.

Whenever a valid point is made you seem to dance around it like Fred Astaire and throw back another tangential question. Unfortunately there is no "filter" button on this forum.

No one is 100% sure at this stage what the outcome of the slot release will have on the total number of slots available to BA (apart from it would appear you). There is a good chance that nothing may come of them and that they will be utilised by IAG/BA as per the original transaction. Then again, there is a remote chance that someone may come out of the woodwork and take a potluck chance with one or two. So to write off 25% and then start arguing over this is way too premature, unless you are WW's right hand man and are angling to diminish the pilots T & Cs further?

To say

Originally Posted by 757 Driver

branson struts around the EU courts

unless you know specifics, is again pouring oil on the fire. Even if this was true, what would he do with more of these additional slots. The constraints that the EU have placed are rightfully in place and would be a non-starter for him. All this would achieve would be to waste more Virgin resources - not a clever thing to do at the moment.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why BA couldn't damp lease some aircraft to start LH routes within a year? Better still maybe Iberia or a OneWorld partner may have some surplus airframes or under performing routes that they would happily lease BA for a guaranteed return?

As you can see, I view the future with positivity and a bouyant attitude. I can easily wallow in the pit of despair, it takes less energy to imagine negative options. I'm a pint half full individual by nature but even when I take my rose-tinted spectacles off, I can only see good things for IAG & BA in the next 2 - 10 years.

I'll give you this one for free though, I read previously that you said that you are at the bottom of the current MSL and 100% of BMI pilots would displace you if DOJ was used. I do not know your start date but BMI have recently recruited a couple of pilots in the last month or so. Perhaps that might brighten up your dour day? i.e. you may not be at the very bottom for long whatever happens?

[Hand Solo]

Let's also not forget that BA short haul pilots average around 100 hrs per year more flying than their bmi counterparts. Levelling the productivity is only going to exacerbate the surplus.

[londonmet]

Hand Solo,

Very good point there. One would think they'd sort this out pre-merger?

[Anton du Flasheart]

757 Driver,
Do you really think that BA didn't factor in the 25% slot loss - my guess would be that they knew exactly what they would have to give up before it all started - they had been talking to the EU for ages.
As flight deck we obviously have far too much time on our hands - these subjects are for the bean counters - it is not part of our remit and winners and loosers can not take responsibilty for any of it - all of that is purely in the domain of those in a different part of the tree.
Hand Solo,
How much time do BASH spend away from base? Efficiency is one thing but, the mid haul routes are semi LH and more crew hungry. The efficiency is not flight deck responsibilty. We get one less day off a month, so actually spend more time at work - most of us would gladly agree to better useage of our time for the extra day off ( if we get it ).

[Hand Solo]

LH should be upping your annual flying hours, not reducing them! I don't think you can reasonably say you get one day off less as BA pilots don't work to a set number of days off per month. It all depends on ones bidding habits.

[Anton du Flasheart]

For clarity - LH was meant to mean Longhaul, not Lufthansa.

I agree, bmi should have got more out of us to reach are maximum (740 in 12 months, befor overtime) allowed by our agreement - but THEY would say they couldn't ( 5 day BEY - 1 sector out 1 sector back - 9 hours flying in 5 days !!!! ).
I can only quote second hand about your days off - but we get 10 off in 28 averaged over several months - I understood that you could do better than that.
Pilots agree the contract, if it is not utilised fully it is not the pilot should not be blamed.

[757_Driver]

yes, I am for real. I'm not going to bother any more, as obviously you are missing the point of what I am asking as much as I am aparently dancing around like fred astair.

and if you are going to be abusive then at least have the f**king decency to read what I've written

No one is 100% sure at this stage what the outcome of the slot release will have on the total number of slots available to BA (apart from it would appear you). There is a good chance that nothing may come of them and that they will be utilised by IAG/BA as per the original transaction. Then again, there is a remote chance that someone may come out of the woodwork and take a potluck chance with one or two

I've you can be bothered to read my previous posts, then you'll see that what you said there is pretty much 100% of what I wrote previously. But I expect that like most people on here, you just see what you want, rather than bothering to take note of what people actually say

and I'm not having a dour day, I'm quite happy thank you very much.

Bottom line. BA bought BMI for the slots. I'm sure the aircraft and the people are marvelous, but there is no shortage of aircraft or people. the slots are what its all about. I'm sure its very upsetting but If IAG could get the slots without all the other stuff attached they would - not very nice I know, but thats the cold hard truth.
I was merely making the point that the game has changed. I'm 100% sure that IAG and everyone else involved at the business end knows exactly what all the numbers are (and of course they went into the negotiations with the EU with their own bottom lines), but they are different to what the BACC and BMICC thought they were a few weeks ago. I was trying to make the point that whilst its all very nice talking about seniority lists and staff travel, some fundamental stuff has changed which MAY change the whole picture, so obsessing about details is probably pointless at this stage as we are a long long way away from getting to that level of detail.

I dunno what you think is wrong with my statement about branson strutting around in the courts. He publicly announced, at a press conference that he was PROBABLY going to appeal the decision. Its a matter of public record that branson said this - its not heresay or 3rd hand, a-mate-of-a-mates-cousin-said-down-the-pub-stuff. I very much doubt that he will appeal it as it will cause huge damage to BMI prospects, and his own brand when he gets the blame. I'm pretty confident it won't come to that as its almost certainly a shakedown as he knows that a 90 day delay will cost someone (Lufty or IAG) about 60-70 million quid.
I'm not wallowing in a pit of dispair by acklowledging bransons spanner in the works - just being realistic.

My whole point of all my posts (for those that have clearly missed the point) is simple.
Discussing details about seniority and TUPE and staff travel is pointless as fundamental aspects of the deal have changed and its still a long way from being signed sealed and delivered.

FWIW I'm overwhelmingly positive about the deal and I think it will be great development in the future, but I think (as posted above) that BMI should be more worried about how many jobs they can keep and what happens to regional and baby than worrying about wether a couple of senior captains are going to get a stab at bidding for the A380 (that last bit was tongue in cheek - you know - humour? that sense that most people here don't have)

really can't be arsed with this discussion any more. Laters.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

On a positive note with all this nonsense....

Sin Bin was the best looking man in Bmi, so its all down hill .

[one day soon]

That is what he claimed!!! Lol

[queenvic]

757 DRIVER - Arent you an ex AEU FO?

[SinBin]

Thanks chaps! CAT3 have you found your hair yet? All this talk of TUPE reminds me of you!