BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
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City Flyer
You obviously are not someone with 24 years employment with the same employer, being transfered to another and being told that you have the same worth a a new joiner. Or, possibly being told that you will NEVER have another pay rise in your remaining career ( which could be another 20 years ).
It can look a lot like constructive dismissal from another angle.
Furthermore, the subsequent company will be a COMBINATION of the 2 merged companied NOT just BA. BA must consider aspects of bmi valueable, because they have made an effort to obtain it - they were not being charitable - therefore whether some gave loyalty to one part or another of that combination, it was still LOYALTY to the combined company. Why should some have their loyalty completely ignored?
You obviously are not someone with 24 years employment with the same employer, being transfered to another and being told that you have the same worth a a new joiner. Or, possibly being told that you will NEVER have another pay rise in your remaining career ( which could be another 20 years ).
It can look a lot like constructive dismissal from another angle.
Furthermore, the subsequent company will be a COMBINATION of the 2 merged companied NOT just BA. BA must consider aspects of bmi valueable, because they have made an effort to obtain it - they were not being charitable - therefore whether some gave loyalty to one part or another of that combination, it was still LOYALTY to the combined company. Why should some have their loyalty completely ignored?
Last edited by Anton du Flasheart; 4th Apr 2012 at 07:56.
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Furthermore, the subsequent company will be a COMBINATION of the 2 merged companied NOT just BA. BA must consider aspects of bmi valueable, because they have made an effort to obtain it - they were not being charitable - therefore whether some gave loyalty to one part or another of that combination, it was still LOYALTY to the combined company. Why should some have their loyalty completely ignored?
The fact is that the slots are valuable to BA nothing more. BA is only taking over a company losing £200million a year for the potential in the slots, not because a small proportion of the workforce, of a failed competitor, has some intrinsic value to BA. BA are certainly not being charitable - nor do they need to start being so now by increasing the expense of a group of workers from a failed rival.
This may be dressed up in many ways but it is a takeover, the BA name, brand and ethos will continue and BMI's name, brand and failed ethos will be consigned, like BCal and Dan-Air to nostalgia. It will not be a combined company, it will be BA with some new workers that have to come to terms with the BA way.
I am not sure how your loyalty to a competitor has any relevance to BA and in fact rather than it justifying a mergers seniority list it tends to add weight to the argument that BMI pilots should go to the bottom of the BA MSL. Length of continuous service is not a matter of debate as it it clearly protected legally.
You will need to come up with some clearer and more cogent argument than the one outlined above.
Perhaps it would be more worthy of us all if we were to concentrate on what happens to our colleagues in Regional and Baby, rather than this childish and unseemly jockeying for petty personal advantage.
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Anton - you seem understandably disappointed, but perhaps you should reflect on the fact that your disappointment is caused by your employer being broke and unable to fulfill your career expectations. That's harsh, but it's also life. BA/IAG don't owe you anything, and they are buying bmi for the slots and the slots alone. Expecting to carry on as if nothing has changed is denying reality.
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I answer to Anton`s concern ;-
"Or, possibly being told that you will NEVER have another pay rise in your remaining career ( which could be another 20 years )"
Correct me if I`m wrong, but I understood BMI had a 12 year payscale. So if a Capt for 12 years (which I guess you must be after 24 years in BM/BMI?), then how were you ever going to get another incremental paypoint rise at BMI? The most that you could have hoped for would have been a general RPI type of pay rise, for the rest of your career. However, given the dire financial state of the company, it is more likely that you would have had a paycut imposed! So in what way, in regards of pay, are you being disadvantaged by joining a relatively secure company on a 34 point payscale, with your present salary protected until reaching the equivalent on that scale, then rising with it? And a much more realistic prospect of at least RPI increases in the meantime?
On a different note, concerning your view of your "worth after 24 years continuous service" in comparison to a "newcomer" . Many "newcomers" to BA also have extensive careers prior to BA, often as Capts, TRI`s, airforce standards instructors etc. How on earth can you make a judgement on your "worth" compared to theirs? Your 24 years in BMI is mainly a measure of your loyalty to that Company combined with choice or circumstance precluding a move elsewhere.
"Or, possibly being told that you will NEVER have another pay rise in your remaining career ( which could be another 20 years )"
Correct me if I`m wrong, but I understood BMI had a 12 year payscale. So if a Capt for 12 years (which I guess you must be after 24 years in BM/BMI?), then how were you ever going to get another incremental paypoint rise at BMI? The most that you could have hoped for would have been a general RPI type of pay rise, for the rest of your career. However, given the dire financial state of the company, it is more likely that you would have had a paycut imposed! So in what way, in regards of pay, are you being disadvantaged by joining a relatively secure company on a 34 point payscale, with your present salary protected until reaching the equivalent on that scale, then rising with it? And a much more realistic prospect of at least RPI increases in the meantime?
On a different note, concerning your view of your "worth after 24 years continuous service" in comparison to a "newcomer" . Many "newcomers" to BA also have extensive careers prior to BA, often as Capts, TRI`s, airforce standards instructors etc. How on earth can you make a judgement on your "worth" compared to theirs? Your 24 years in BMI is mainly a measure of your loyalty to that Company combined with choice or circumstance precluding a move elsewhere.
Last edited by 160til4; 4th Apr 2012 at 10:05.
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Well... it seems that I provoked some controversial comments!!!
I was countering CityFlyers comments not expressing a fully coherent opinion of my own ( I'm not a 24 year long employee of bmi ) - if you want that it will take more than the space here.
However to start with....... Fundamentally I think that flightdeck are their own worst enemies by clinging on to the bizaar system of Seniority lists in the first place. It restricts mobility of employment and market place values being reached and many other negatives ( not least the ability of employers to manipulate ).
BA is not Gods gift to pilots and bmi was never a cess pool - pilots are pilots and employers should pay and respect according to the value of the service they are purchasing. Employers are generally callous money grabbers nowadays and would happily dump the most loyal if the thought they'd gain a buck.
I was countering CityFlyers comments not expressing a fully coherent opinion of my own ( I'm not a 24 year long employee of bmi ) - if you want that it will take more than the space here.
However to start with....... Fundamentally I think that flightdeck are their own worst enemies by clinging on to the bizaar system of Seniority lists in the first place. It restricts mobility of employment and market place values being reached and many other negatives ( not least the ability of employers to manipulate ).
BA is not Gods gift to pilots and bmi was never a cess pool - pilots are pilots and employers should pay and respect according to the value of the service they are purchasing. Employers are generally callous money grabbers nowadays and would happily dump the most loyal if the thought they'd gain a buck.
If this takeover does lead to legal challenges about "Seniority" I believe that it will form the first realistic challenge to the whole seniority house of cards in Aviation.
Bring on the challenge. Seniority is a disgraceful con used by lazy TUs and even lazier managers.
Bring on the challenge. Seniority is a disgraceful con used by lazy TUs and even lazier managers.
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Hi Anton,
I fully agree with what you say. The seniority system is clearly flawed, but as many others have said, with what system would we replace it?
Regarding IAG`s purchase of BMI, the harsh reality is that they only wanted the slots to enable expansion at LHR. As a business their aim is simply to generate the highest revenue from the use of those slots whilst keeping the cost side as low as possible.And they have clearly stated that "BMI unit costs will not be allowed to increase".
That said, the point remains that on the issue of pay, then there will be no disadvantage whatsoever for the ex BMI guys. More a much better chance of future pay increases. So complaints of "no pay rise for the rest of my career" are clearly baseless in fact.
I fully agree with what you say. The seniority system is clearly flawed, but as many others have said, with what system would we replace it?
Regarding IAG`s purchase of BMI, the harsh reality is that they only wanted the slots to enable expansion at LHR. As a business their aim is simply to generate the highest revenue from the use of those slots whilst keeping the cost side as low as possible.And they have clearly stated that "BMI unit costs will not be allowed to increase".
That said, the point remains that on the issue of pay, then there will be no disadvantage whatsoever for the ex BMI guys. More a much better chance of future pay increases. So complaints of "no pay rise for the rest of my career" are clearly baseless in fact.
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And here we have yet another tedious recurrence of the 'seniority's not fair, it must be illegal' rant. The basic premise of seniority is perfectly fair. There's also a very good chance that it would stand up to scrutiny in court. It would certainly take very deep pockets to even attempt to prove otherwise, with absolutely no guarantee that the outcome would be in your favour.
What has become clear over the past 12 pages is that we will never reach agreement on what a 'fair' integration of BMI pilots into BA should look like.
It is also clear that BA pilots/BACC feel that the best result for BMI pilots can be achieved with agreement between the two CCs and a joint approach to dealing with BA management.
The BMI pilots/BMI-CC (unhappy with proposals tabled by the BACC) feel that they can negotiate a better deal if they 'consult' with BA on their own.
It appears that no amount of debate here is going to change the viewpoint of either side.
Will the BMI-CC will be in for a rude awakening when the come to 'consult' with BA management or will they come out with a better deal than the BACC proposed fighting for?
We shall see soon....
What has become clear over the past 12 pages is that we will never reach agreement on what a 'fair' integration of BMI pilots into BA should look like.
It is also clear that BA pilots/BACC feel that the best result for BMI pilots can be achieved with agreement between the two CCs and a joint approach to dealing with BA management.
The BMI pilots/BMI-CC (unhappy with proposals tabled by the BACC) feel that they can negotiate a better deal if they 'consult' with BA on their own.
It appears that no amount of debate here is going to change the viewpoint of either side.
Will the BMI-CC will be in for a rude awakening when the come to 'consult' with BA management or will they come out with a better deal than the BACC proposed fighting for?
We shall see soon....
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In reply to onedollar`s comment "good and fair management" Well therin lies the problem, Such an ideal is sadly a rarity! No other business or industry has the same system as in some ways aviation is unique. There are a minimum of two pilots in a commercial aircraft. One Captain, one First Officer. Both have the same qualification for the job. So how is it decided who has which seat? And aircraft type, bases etc?
Just to hope for "good and fair management" to resolve these and other issues is very optimistic at best.
Just to hope for "good and fair management" to resolve these and other issues is very optimistic at best.
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RE: what other way is there?
How do Doctors manage? We are tested again and again and again ( sometimes with less than absolute objectivity ), so we ought to have, at least, a base line!
How do Doctors manage? We are tested again and again and again ( sometimes with less than absolute objectivity ), so we ought to have, at least, a base line!
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It's all well and good complaining that seniority isn't fair (I might even agree) but it won't be germane to this debate, which will be settled long before anyone from Bmi see's the inside of a courtroom.
Likewise, people can grumble about BALPAs advice re the bmi/BMed merger but it has no bearing on the BA/bmi takeover. You can gripe with BALPA about it, it won't be influencing the BACC or BA pilots.
Likewise, people can grumble about BALPAs advice re the bmi/BMed merger but it has no bearing on the BA/bmi takeover. You can gripe with BALPA about it, it won't be influencing the BACC or BA pilots.
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RE: what other way is there?
How do Doctors manage?
How do Doctors manage?
Ive spent 15 years in a previous career where that was the case, and 5 years in an airline where you were expected to "do a favour" for the company in order to get anywhere. I don't want to go back there, so I quite like seniority thank you very much. As I expect do most people who have actually experienced the alternative.
A previous poster had it bang on - BMI need to get their stuff together and work our where the wriggle room is and what really can, and needs, to be negotiated, rather than banging on about a seniority pipe dream thats not going to happen.
The best lawyers / negotiators / salespeople / bankers etc are the best because they don't ask for things they are clearly not going to get, they know where the negotiating battlefield is and they know where they can and can't push.
As for the legal challenges - well good luck. I have no idea what the outcome will be, however I can pretty much guarantee that I will be retired by the time its resolved (and i've got 23 years left to go!), and those challenging it will be broke. . Even fairly obvious black and white employment law issues take 5 years to go through the system.
It would certainly take very deep pockets to even attempt to prove otherwise,
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What, in this situation, would you call "the common good"?
Certainly, what you think would be great for the BMI pilots, would be a huge disadvantage and a kick in the teeth for me - so why should I defend that?
Everyone will, by nature, defend their own interests, people who talk about "the common good" usually only do it to defend their own position.
Certainly, what you think would be great for the BMI pilots, would be a huge disadvantage and a kick in the teeth for me - so why should I defend that?
Everyone will, by nature, defend their own interests, people who talk about "the common good" usually only do it to defend their own position.
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There will be winners and losers on both "sides" (it pains me to call it that, but it seems as if the battle lines are already being drawn) in any solution to this.
The best result is that both sides feel slightly miffed, but not put upon. Pragmatism dictates that you don't want to thoroughly annoy either "side."
All it requires is for both the BACC and bmiCC to be adult about this and not act like spoilt children. However, going by some of the responses on here so far, I'm not so sure that will happen...
The best result is that both sides feel slightly miffed, but not put upon. Pragmatism dictates that you don't want to thoroughly annoy either "side."
All it requires is for both the BACC and bmiCC to be adult about this and not act like spoilt children. However, going by some of the responses on here so far, I'm not so sure that will happen...
757 driver, in a list of 3300 pilots, where do you fit in? (within 10%) and why do you think all the BMI guys and girls should fit in below you and not even a percentage above you? Surely moving 360 places up a list that grows to 3660 is slightly greedy?
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I have been in BA for 24 years, I see the benefits that I get from that, lifestyle, pay, an element of control over my work etc as reward for my contribution to the current success and future prosperity of the company. For this reason I do not see a seniority list integration as an option.
I have no doubt whatsoever that BMI pilots are as professional and committed as any, I am sure that they will enhance the operation at BA, I hope they will enjoy the benefits that working for BA can bring, I also hope that they go on to give sterling service to BA and reap the rewards for that, but up to now they have served BMI, not BA.
The veiled, and otherwise, threats of legal challenges will have the lawyers rubbing their hands with glee, but will do nothing to assist ANY pilot from ANY workforce.
It has been said before on this forum, and in other places, the real problem will be the management of expectations from those who believe their future employer is going to present them with a world of long haul fantasy when you are going to be in the world of shorthaul reality.........whatever seats you are used to.
I have no doubt whatsoever that BMI pilots are as professional and committed as any, I am sure that they will enhance the operation at BA, I hope they will enjoy the benefits that working for BA can bring, I also hope that they go on to give sterling service to BA and reap the rewards for that, but up to now they have served BMI, not BA.
The veiled, and otherwise, threats of legal challenges will have the lawyers rubbing their hands with glee, but will do nothing to assist ANY pilot from ANY workforce.
It has been said before on this forum, and in other places, the real problem will be the management of expectations from those who believe their future employer is going to present them with a world of long haul fantasy when you are going to be in the world of shorthaul reality.........whatever seats you are used to.
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try right at the bottom (within 10%). I'm merely stating my "selfish self interest view" as it was called in a post above. BMICC are pushing their view and BACC are pushing their view.
Had BA not bought BMI any growth in the company would be below me on the list- 100% of BMI pilots have a BMI DOJ significnatly above me. So personally I would be screwed by them all jumping onto the list - that's my view and my position.
I am of an age where the only command I will see at BA will be shorthaul so even if all 300 people only go onto the airbus in DOJ order it still affects me greatly an I really don't see why I should be ashamed of defending my own interests. The only difference between me and alot of other people is that I am happy to openly and publicly defend my interests and not engage in a bunch of backstabbing and politics.
I wish all BMI pilots well and I hope they all get good job security out of all this, but they are legally entitled to join BA with their TUPE entitlements - which absolutely does not include any right to be on the MSL at all, let alone in their DOJ position, or with any rights to any of the other bidline stuff, bidding for other fleets etc etc. anything else is all subject to negotiation - The BMI guys will state their reasons for wanting what they want, I, and everyone else in BA will state theirs. A balance will be found with some winners and some losers. Every group of people will be more or less affected by some elements of the takeover - being at the bottom of the list I am hugely affected by the seniority issues. Even the TUPE issues of LIFO and staff travel affect me - as I will be below all the BMI guys for LIFO redundancy calculation in a company that is significantly more at risk than it was last week, having just taken on a 200 million pound millstone.
Medium to long term I think we can all see the benefits of this, but short term there are some issues that need to be resolved.
Had BA not bought BMI any growth in the company would be below me on the list- 100% of BMI pilots have a BMI DOJ significnatly above me. So personally I would be screwed by them all jumping onto the list - that's my view and my position.
I am of an age where the only command I will see at BA will be shorthaul so even if all 300 people only go onto the airbus in DOJ order it still affects me greatly an I really don't see why I should be ashamed of defending my own interests. The only difference between me and alot of other people is that I am happy to openly and publicly defend my interests and not engage in a bunch of backstabbing and politics.
I wish all BMI pilots well and I hope they all get good job security out of all this, but they are legally entitled to join BA with their TUPE entitlements - which absolutely does not include any right to be on the MSL at all, let alone in their DOJ position, or with any rights to any of the other bidline stuff, bidding for other fleets etc etc. anything else is all subject to negotiation - The BMI guys will state their reasons for wanting what they want, I, and everyone else in BA will state theirs. A balance will be found with some winners and some losers. Every group of people will be more or less affected by some elements of the takeover - being at the bottom of the list I am hugely affected by the seniority issues. Even the TUPE issues of LIFO and staff travel affect me - as I will be below all the BMI guys for LIFO redundancy calculation in a company that is significantly more at risk than it was last week, having just taken on a 200 million pound millstone.
Medium to long term I think we can all see the benefits of this, but short term there are some issues that need to be resolved.