BA Pilots Ponder BMI Proposal

[TDK mk2]

this is subject to the caveat that the BMI Mainline pilots’ promotion prospects and other benefits are no less favourable than they were prior to the transfer (which they wouldn’t be)

For the reasons already outlined, we cannot foresee any situation in which an existing BA pilot will be displaced from his current seniority position and status by a BMI pilot. The BACC’s overriding aim is to ensure that no BA pilot is disadvantaged by the integration of BMI mainline

Are these two statements compatible? For example would the most senior BMI First Officer have to wait until after B.A. recruit who joined the day before the merger/takeover is promoted to be eligible for command?

[757_Driver]

Whilst I have appreciated and commented on the support and positive attitude of nearly all the BA pilots on here and in person, I cant help but read an underlying negative possible hostile attitude towards BMI pilots in the BACC document kindly posted by buzz boy.

err - that document is from the BACC not the BMICC - the BACC are there to represent the interests and requests of BA pilots only. The BMIcc will be fighting their corner and most probably are right now talking with the BACC and balpa behind the scenes. I know its no fault of the BMI employees - but before anyone throws their toys out remember BA (management and staff) have a choice here, BMI do not. The most likely alternative to not being taken over is redundancy and slot / asset stripping
Also remember the TUPE ONLY APPLIES IF THEY ARE INTEGRATED. so if the BA pilots vote no, or BMICC refuse to sign up to whatever they are requested then BMI becomes a part of IAG, not BA, probably gets rebranded as BA express and there is no TUPE, no seniority, no protection, no-nothing.
I have no idea what BMI are being asked to bring to the table, but given the concessions that BA are being asked to provide to have an integration rather than a takeover I assume that BMICC are being asked to provide some concessions too. If joining the BA list at the bottom is what they are being asked to do, in order to guarantee all the other benfits then that seems like a reasonable request to me.
I've got some good mates in BMI and I don't wish to see anyone's job or career harmed due to no fault of their own, and a wrong place wrong time deal, but thats the way the cookie crumbles.

[Nevermind]

BOAC

At the risk of boring everyone to death there is more than 1 interpretation of how things went at LGW in the late nineties.

In particular, the phrase "mostly OK with the odd exception".

I'd rather not go over old ground, as I was fed up hearing about it when sitting in the RHS.
The Dan guys were great (see quote above), as were the BA guys.
What strikes me about it is the CRM issue, of which there were, shall we say, occasional difficulties.
You are never going to keep everyone happy, but I hope that both CC will come up with something that satisfies the aspirations of the vast majority of both sets of pilots.

[757_Driver]

You are never going to keep everyone happy, but I hope that both CC will come up with something that satisfies the aspirations of the vast majority of both sets of pilots.

And despite all the moaning on here, largely from people who are not involved, I suspect that is exactly what will heppen. Both CC's will get the best they can out of the bad hand thats been dealt. We can't change the dealer, we can't change the cards.

Quote:
this is subject to the caveat that the BMI Mainline pilots’ promotion prospects and other benefits are no less favourable than they were prior to the transfer (which they wouldn’t be)

Quote:
For the reasons already outlined, we cannot foresee any situation in which an existing BA pilot will be displaced from his current seniority position and status by a BMI pilot. The BACC’s overriding aim is to ensure that no BA pilot is disadvantaged by the integration of BMI mainline

Are these two statements compatible? For example would the most senior BMI First Officer have to wait until after B.A. recruit who joined the day before the merger/takeover is promoted to be eligible for command?

what promotion prospects do you think BMI FO's currently have? I'm not being sarcastic - just asking the question. I'd guess that even at the bottom of the BA list, almost all of them would have better promotion and career prospects than they currently do.

[Nevermind]

Re: BMI promotion opportunities

Am I right in thinking that BMI pilots feel that they are bringing something quite substantial to the table ie airbus aircraft and SLOTS?
Slots that we intend to expand our longhaul fleet with.

Therefore they probably feel that they are entitled to be able to share in that expansion. They will of course, but the big questions are

(1) When
(2) Where exactly will they slip into the 747/777/787/380 fleet list

And that 2nd point is probably crucial, as we know how much our lifestyle can be determined by our position on the fleet list.

[londonmet]

And if IAG didn't purchase BMI then they'd be out of business this time next year probably so it's definitely the lesser of two evils.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by nevermind

interpretation of how things went at LGW in interpretation of how things went at LGW in the late nineties

- not sure when you came along, (actually looking your details you would have 'missed' all the excitement) but I should point out that by "interpretation of how things went at LGW in the late nineties" things had pretty much settled own - it was the 'early nineties' where the issues arose and we had some rather bizarre behaviour from a few of the BA 'secondees' which to the credit of the DA F/Os we were able to handle.

The lessons for BMI are:

BMICC - do your best against overwhelming odds. Assuming you have no 'redundancies' (see above) during the process it is roughly 340:3000

Pilots - things will almost certainly improve as you 'rise up the list' and you are able to bid onto other fleets with a reasonable seniority. The problems largely arise for those with less time to retirement where either a fleet/seat change is blocked or not financially viable.

[Nevermind]

BOAC

Early '95 for me. I did not miss all the excitement.
I flew with all the DA guys and BA guys. Virtually all excellent chaps.
Eventually the DA FOs got their opportunity too.

And my recollection of who was causing the difficulties is different.
I think the BA guys did a splendid job managing certain situations.
Best leave it at that, as it has little bearing on our thread.

But it does illustrate that there can be potential Notech consequences when either side of the cockpit has a different idea of fairness.
And as we've illustrated, these ideas can exist years later!

I sincerely hope we don't repeat some of those difficulties. Which I might add were isolated, and not representative of the other 98%.

[wiggy]

Confirmation Bias

I would be extremely peeved if they were not frozen for a period as long as myself and other new joiners. I.e. none of them should be getting on a triple or 747 before any of the new joiners.

Heard that said a lot recently and I have a lot of sympathy with your POV. That's the reason why I was bemused by Dingbaticus's peculiar comment a day or two back that:

My humble advice would be for the junior Flight Crew to persuade the senior Pilots to vote to accept the deal, to give themselves a future.

[skip.rat]

confirmation Bias
Your observations about cutting costs are correct; indeed at bmi we've been doing that for sometime now, along with s/e taxi-out'which has saved 6 figure sums p/a. on our relatively small fleet, but, as was mentioned on a thread in another place, the savings mentioned above don't seem to be included in the deal; it's thrust seems purely to cut employee costs. I don't doubt that attempts to include such savings will be made in the future, but that's for another day.

[stormin norman]

I find it sad that IAG are probally using the money saved by the changes to the BA pilot pension schemes to probally fund the buyout of BMI which in turn is being used to reduce the T and C's of the current BA pilot workforce.

[JazzyKex]

Studi, please re read the long Q and A statement. The answers to your questions are answered quite comprehensively in there.

In brief though. Integration brings all the pilot workforce under the SCOPE agreement and hence work done on all aircraft with over 100 seats will be kept in BA mainline. The chance of a LoCo start up outwith SCOPE as a standalone is almost impossible due to the lack of space/slots at LHR. Without integration the basic building blocks for that new airline are already in place.

If there is no integration there is no need for IAG to maintain the BMI terms and conditions when the a initial period which TUPE applies is over. The new airline can re employ on whatever conditions it wants...not a great place to be.

This is not a merger. IAG is buying BMI and can do with it as it wishes, with the workforce on side or not. That is what this is about. Do we want to be in the negotiations arguing for the best we can expect or looking on as our futures are decided entirely by the bean counters?

As for where BMI FO's fit into seniority lists and fairness. Maybe being at the bottom of the list in and expanding airline is better than having your job conditions dictated to you after a new paint job is put on your aircraft. For those of us that have moved through different companies we understand seniority is not transferable. In some airlines seniority means nothing, in others it is everything. BA is the latter. Why should those that chose to move to BA from other jobs prior to this be disadvantaged by being pushed down the list by those that did not choose to take that decision?

We all make career choices some lucky others not, some considered others through necessity. That is part of this industry.

I enjoy reading your postings playing devils advocate. However you do seem to advocate a non conciliatory approach which in this situation does not exist as a genuine option. This is a bad job, we are trying to make the best of it.

I look forward to flying with colleagues from all backgrounds. The future BMI pilots will be warmly welcomed and all our job security fought for from within. That will not happen so easily if there is discontent about their integration with regard to current BA pilots CHOSEN lifestyle/career prospects. I can only empathise with the current angst amongst BMI pilots. Unlike many of my past colleagues at least they are not staring at redundancy, the desperate search for any job going and all that entails for family and lifestyle. This could be very different.

Jazzy

[757_Driver]

studi - you seem to be rabble rousing on an issue that not only has nothing to do with you, but is conducted in a different country, under a different legal system.

However

I read the document very thorough, but I still don't see why the current scope clause will prevent IAG from setting up BA Express as a new start up company, when this scope clause does not prevent IAG from rebranding BMI into BA Express.

There is no space and no slots at heathrow. That is the bottom line. Sure IAG could set up BA express, despite what happens in the next few weeks, but it won't be at heathrow.

I'm sure the seniority system will be sorted by sensible discussion from both sides, but those advocating that BMI pilots play hard-ass should remember that BMI almost certainly will not exist in 12 months. BA could just sit at the sidelines and then dive in with everyone else to pick up the pieces after lufty eventually fold it up. I'm 100% sure that BMICC are well aware of this fact and will negotiate accordingly.

[Count Niemantznarr]

I am very surpised that there is no talk of co-ordinated action with Iberia flight crew, who coincidentally happen to be in dispute with Willie over similar issues, rather than being picked off over the BMI takeover. Don't any of the BALPA members here not realise that BA and Iberia Express might one day be merged?

As the occasional dictator has found in the past, it is not easy to fight a war on two fronts.....

[Human Factor]

I am very surprised that there is no talk of co-ordinated action with Iberia flight crew...

You mean apart from it being illegal ....?

[Narrow Runway]

I would imagine that a lot of BMI FO's will be hoping this fails.

After all, if the soon to be BA EXPRESS comes along, expands as every BA pilot thinks it will, then their Commands are going to be a lot quicker in the new outfit than they could ever be in mainline.

The quick Command pay will possibly outweigh a 15 year stint in the RHS, on a 34 pay point scale.

Either way, it's not pretty.

[SR71]

757 Driver,

This comment keeps cropping up all over the place in recent years, and I'm really struggling to understand what the **** its got to do with anything. Our politicians are hell bent on destroying the country in an attempt to make things more 'fair'. Why let some people get unfairly rich - why not make everyone poor - thats much fairer.

Since when was life supposed to be fair? It is what it is. There are many claims you can make in the british (and most other) legal systems. however "It ain't fair guv'nor" isn't one of them.

Remember that when your daughter is run over by a bus, driven by a maniac.

Sure, "unfair" things happen, but that does not mean we should not seek to mitigate the consequences of those "unfair" events, if it is within our power to do so.

Whilst some BA pilots seem to think this is their battle, studi is right to point out the wider ramifications. What happens at BA affects the UK market - the argument has always been that they exert the upward pressure on airline T&C's here in the UK - and one imagines the MartinAir guys might have one eye on what happens here, for instance?

In this instance, I'm sure UK pilots outside BA are wondering whether capitulation will mean downward pressure on their T&C's in the "nearer than expected" future.

Thats why they might be adding their $0.02.

[bluepilot]

are the BMI pilots not being asked for their "vote" on this?

TBH this gets my goat AGAIN, not so much the BA pilots but BALPA, when the Openskies pilots were made redundant and NOT offered mainline just a poor excuse of an "interview" BALPA did sweet FA, now they are working flat out on this, Jim and his team YET AGAIN dont look after the small fry, only interested in the big issues (airlines?). Double standards and i have a real problem with it.

I hope the BMI pilots and BA pilots can work TOGETHER to bring about a happy marriage here and i honestly hope it all works out for the best, but i suspect BA CC will dictate the terms and BMI will have to take whatever crumbs they are offered.

[Ginger81]

Guys,

Surely you would all want BA Cityflyer to be tagged onto this merger too?

They have to be planning to expand due to being on half the T&Cs that BA mainline do?

Gettingn the support of everyone would be much more beneficial?

[1033]

Originally Posted by londonmet

And if IAG didn't purchase BMI then they'd be out of business this time next year probably so it's definitely the lesser of two evils.

What utter tosh. Please confirm what factual basis you have to back this up and please don't tell me that it is some journo such as that plum working for the FT.

As a bmi employee we were actually shown a Powerpoint presentation from the management documenting Lufthansa's objectives for the Company. The first objective was to sell bmi. That wasn't to sell it to BA/IAG it was to sell it to the most beneficial bidder. That doesn't necessarily mean the highest. So if/were IAG to for whatever reason pull out of the sale, Lufthansa would simply move on to the next bidder. This could be Virgin, Etihad or any other player who submitted a proposal that Lufthansa considered suitable. If the options were not acceptable then Lufthansa would go with option number 2.

This was to invest in bmi to turn it around. Sure there would be further pain and suffering for some and undoubtedly further slots would be sold to help fund this strategy but a plan was a foot. The question was asked whether Lufthansa would simply wind the bmi up and it was explicitly said that this would not be an option. By winding bmi up they stood to lose everything.

My guess is that they wanted to turn bmi around with the least amount of spending required. When they realised that this could not be achieved they have had to dig deep and come up with alternatives. They could turn bmi around but it would need to be brought down to a more manageable size to stop the costs required to do this from spiralling out of control.

So for anyone who thinks that bmi staff should be lucky to have a job, yes you are right, who isn't lucky to have a job at this time but if you think that this was the 11th hour for bmi, guess again. bmi staff could have been wearing a red uniform, a sandy brown one or even a Germanic looking one. We really are a happy bunch who get the job done. Berating bmi staff as being lucky to have a job is a long way from the truth and quite insulting. Had we gone to an opposition, especially a Gulf carrier, things would not be looking so rosy as they do at the moment with the grand lonhaul expansion plans.

For those asking what sacrifices bmi are making, why not let us have a go at operating the standalone Company. Sure there may/will be some erosions eventually in terms and conditions but we would not be type frozen, not be at the bottom of a massive seniority list, probably flying new wide bodied aircraft and for our SFOs and FOs, potentially seeing career progression at an accelerated rate far quicker than they could dream about within BA.

I'd be extremely proud to wear a BA uniform and operating with high calibre professions as I have done throughout my career but please do not belittle us with comments regarding how lucky we are to be at the bottom of the MSL, how we can continue with our BMI salaries without incremental pay until sometime in the distant future when we may be lucky enough to finally make it on to the pp34 list. We are not fools. The talk that is going on here is merely just the minimum required by TUPE law. Nothing more, nothing less. Lets not beat about the bush, trying to jazz it up as anything other than the bare minimum. I for one am prepared to make concessions, lord knows we've all made some along the windy roads of our aviation careers but lets just try and stick to facts rather than beat each other up with hearsay and speculation.

My rant is not meant to deride or aggravate, merely to open people’s eyes so that they can make a more informed conclusion of the events. We recently were flying BMed's aircraft with their Business class cabins to destinations close to China from LHR (tech stopping naturally along the way). We were taking other narrowbody business class cabins down to Sierra Leone. We have interesting routes to many of the worlds "Axis of Evils". Until a couple of years ago, we were flying 330s to Caribbean destinations, Las Vegas and other longhaul destinations. Many on here may recognise us as a flying on domestic routes but we are far more than that.

I totally empathise with those that have been absorbed by BA over the years and found themselves at the bottom of the MSL seniority list. If the present legislation was available during those periods, perhaps you may not have been handled in the same way as you have been. This is the other feature that some people have not understood. The law has changed over the last few years. I am sure that many people are pouring over the TUPE wordings as I type but the bottom line is, that as is often the case, areas are not clear black and white. This means that it is down to the judge on the day. It may go one way or it may go the other. Hopefully though neither of the two CCs will wish to see this go to the wire, as potentially it could sink the whole concept of seniority and we'd all be left clutching the flotsam from the wreck that was what we considered a stable career path. It is as we know an emotive subject, the merging of Companies and what everyone has to be careful of is one side winding up the other side to the extent that they feel that all they can do is throw out their toys out the pram and thus create a situation far greater than the original problem.....