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BALPA wakes up

Old 13th Aug 2011, 01:04
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BALPA wakes up

BALPA website

BA MOVE IN RIGHT DIRECTION ON PILOT RECRUITMENT

The British Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA) is pleased that British Airways is not only recruiting new pilots in order to expand its operations, but also ensuring that it is allowing the best pilots, not just those with the most money, to fly for them.

BA is launching a training scheme for new pilots which will help a lot of aspiring pilots fulfil their dreams of flying who might otherwise be put off due to the upfront costs involved.

We are pleased that the industry is slowly awakening to the challenge of finding new pilot recruits to take aviation forward into the future. For instance, at Flybe, BALPA has secured a freeze on repayment of loans and a joint commitment to look at how new recruits are supported and at easyJet a commitment to look at the terms and conditions of their trainees.

We believe that the pool of pilots should be made up from the most able and talented, not from those who can afford these huge fees. Restricting access to flying to only the most affluent is wrong and hampers social mobility.

That is why we are heartened that the industry is waking up to this issue and that BA and others are starting to take a different approach to what we have seen in some previous recruitment rounds. These are, if not best practice, then a lot fairer than some alternatives being offered around the industry.

For more details please visit the BALPA Careers Services website area
Great.

BALPA wakes up after a 10-15 year slumber and finally comments on a trend in the industry that makes so called 'equal opportunities' employers look like an ex New Labour prime minister who had a nasty habit of lying.

It is and always has been all about selecting pilots who had the fattest wallet. Perhaps now we are seeing the end of this?

Good to see and keep it up BALPA!!
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 05:49
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Yeah nice one BALPA, you have

secured a commitment to look at the terms and conditions
... because of course when a big company promises a union that they will "make a commitment to look at" terms and conditions of some exploited group of workers, that always comes up roses. Doesn't at all stink of doublespeak for "we'll successfully fob you off for a couple of years until you come whinging about it at the next round of negotiations at which time we'll promise to do it again".

Whatever is happening at BA, and I do applaud them for not going down the pay-to-fly road, but it's a securely established profit centre at the lo-co's now and their bean counters will not give it up without a great deal of kicking and screaming.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 07:43
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All may sound very positive but I like LST have questions.There may well be a negative side to this aswell unless it is industry wide,what must competitors of Easy and Flybe be thinking?Licking their lips I would think,BALPA if it is serious with addressing this problem must deal with the CAA not just individual companies,push their concerns about the issue on the industry not their members as to not do so could leave their members jobs at risk.
Dont like raining on the parade,but a level playing field is needed if management in Easy etc are expected to run with this.
And then we go international,Oh well nice idea.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 17:03
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'It is and always has been all about selecting pilots who had the fattest wallet. Perhaps now we are seeing the end of this?'

Sorry but what a complete load of tosh. I did the original CTC course and never had any hope of funding my training through either my own wallet or that of my parents. My loan, arranged through the CTC deal with the bank, was completely unsecured and based purely on my prospective ability to complete the course. This applies to many of my coursemates too. That said, purely because some may be fortunate enough to have the money for a CPL/Frozen ATPL course, does not mean that they aren't good enough to actually be sitting in the seat of a jet. I'm sure there are some examples but put very simply, there are plenty of young, eager pilots out there. The airlines do not need to employ dross and they will employ the right person for the right job with very few exceptions. End of.

CTC, TCX, now BA....and I may not be the greatest pilot in the world but I'm damned sure that I earned my position and certainly never 'bought' my seat.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 17:20
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BA is launching a training scheme for new pilots which will help a lot of aspiring pilots fulfil their dreams of flying who might otherwise be put off due to the upfront costs involved.
meanwhile, thousands of pilots are looking for jobs but obviously BALPA doesn't give a stuff about them, pumping out PR for BA obviously takes priority.

I wonder if BALPA got taken out for dinner and movie before giving BA the rimjob.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 17:26
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British Airways Future Pilot Programme

Training to become a pilot is hard work; it requires intensive training and ongoing commitment. However, initially financing flying training can often seem like the greatest challenge – and we firmly believe this shouldn’t be the case.

Therefore we have joined forces with Airline Placement Limited (APL), a subsidiary of CTC Aviation, and together we’ve designed a unique sponsorship scheme that will make flying feasible for all.

This is where the Future Pilot Programme really comes into its own. We have structured the programme so that APL will sponsor your flight training, jet orientation course and type rating. Obviously this represents a significant investment by APL and you will therefore be required to deposit a security bond of £84,000 with them. Because this is a sponsored scheme, this entire £84,000 security bond will be repaid to you, tax-free, if you successfully complete all training, and join British Airways as a first officer. The security bond is repaid in equal monthly instalments over your first seven years of employment, all in addition to your remuneration package.

There are a number of ways you can raise the funds to deposit this security bond, for example from your own finances, borrowing from family, or securing a loan.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 20:57
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Hear hear vexed, I couldn't have put it better.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 23:36
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Originally Posted by Vexed
I'd rather recruit someone for their personality, or knowledge of their type or EU-Ops, not for some BS they copied and pasted of the net to answer a "competency" based question, especially FOs or cadets. BA needs to get off its high horse and realise it' not the only game in town.
Knowledge of type is irrelevant given you may not end up on that type in BA. Eu-Ops? Who needs an encyclopaedic knowledge of Eu-Ops? In BA you fly to their JPMs which are approved under Eu-Ops. You're not expected to go outside that particular box. Personality? Now you're talking, but it's about attitude too, and attitude is what gets a lot of people rejected who come to the interview full of Eu-Ops, knowledge of their current type and a belief that because BA need their type rating they can just walk in. Turns out BA don't need their type rating and they can find pilots from other sources, just as they always used to.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 00:15
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Goldcup - "Having tried to recruit a load of type rated guys and girls who were desperate to escape from Ryanair and Easyjet, BA soon realised that the product was sadly lacking."

What utter sanctimonious codswallop and drivel.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 00:32
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757Drivergla

My point is that pilots shouldn't have to pay for a professional rating to fly the equipment operated by their new employer. Pilots also shouldn't have to fork out 10,000 or 20,000 pounds to log right hand seat time (PTF) in a 737/A320 or whatever in order to further their career.

And I believe that is what BALPA have finally decided to comment upon.

How you financed your training up to frozen ATPL level is up to you and not anyone's business.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 05:46
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Having tried to recruit a load of type rated guys and girls who were desperate to escape from Ryanair and Easyjet, BA soon realised that the product was sadly lacking
Most of the Easyjet crew who failed the BA assesment would have come through the CTC ab-initio selection and subsequent flight training programme which is exactly what BA have chosen to do with these future cadets.

The CTC scheme is a countless-times-proven product? Therefore BA will have hidden agendas to suit themselves.

For example during the late 80's, it was BA's (hidden) policy to fail married men with families at interview even though they were suitable pilots.

Secondly, how many pilots over the years have passed BA selection but been put on hold, then been forced to reapply only to then fail..!

...but also ensuring that it is allowing the best pilots, not just those with the most money...
There are a number of ways you can raise the funds to deposit this security bond, for example from your own finances, borrowing from family, or securing a loan
You still have to initially steal, beg or borrow £84,000? What has changed?

Come on, this is ONLY aimed at the fattest wallets.

Saatchi and Saatchi used to do the advertising - Looks like Max Clifford now does the PR..!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_hzrB_FI4

Call the ASA..!

Last edited by Craggenmore; 14th Aug 2011 at 13:39.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 08:05
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here may well be a negative side to this aswell unless it is industry wide,what must competitors of Easy and Flybe be thinking?Licking their lips I would think
I see what you are saying in terms of Easy/Flybe's competitors seeing a chance to cut costs if those two are looking away from P2F etc. To be fair to flybe (my own employer) the one thing they do do right is recruitment. All pilots are employed on a permanent contract, full salary from day one, hotac, flight duty allowance, Loss of License cover, private medical and such like. The only think they do have is a 3 year bond.

Flybe have also been providing a part sponsored scheme with Cabair throughout the recession (the only airline I can think of that has contributed to up front training fees) as well as providing mentored schemes along the lines of what BA has announced right throughout the downturn.

They certainly can't be compared with Easy at any point in terms of recruitment policies as Easy's has been just plain sick in terms of P2F/flexicrew. Easy moving away from P2F would be a big change whereas I don't think flybe have too much to lose as they don't make money out of recruitment to the same scale.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 09:21
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why is there a whole generation of people who think the world owes them a living and anything that doesn't pander to them "isn't fair"

How BA choose to recruit and what questions they ask at interview is entirely their business. If you don't want to prepare and jump through the hoops then don't apply. Simples. If you do apply and then can't be bothered to meet their demands because you think it 'isn't fair' or 'isn't relevent' then I'd get used to the dole que 'coz their ain't many employers in any industry who would appreciate that attitude.

Personally I think this is a good scheme - Of course it would be better if it were 'free' but that money would have to come from somewhere.

I can't understand why so many people moan about BA's recruitment methods when tehre are clearly more pressinng matters in the whole pilot recruitment agenda. Like getting rid of the evil and devious methods that FR use to recruit and getting rid of p2f schemes.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 09:26
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I must admit to personally being unsure of why everyone is praising this scheme? If BA want applicants to fund their own training that is no different to any other airline... but it angers me they are trying to make out that they or APL or anyone else is 'sponsoring' you- you are paying for your training, pure and simple.

The drivel about APL 'sponsoring' the applicant is tosh, as £84,000 still has to be forked out by the applicant. Yes 84k will be returned tax free, but it will most likely be on a much reduced 'cadet' salary, just like the old CTC scheme (opinion, unverified- CTC cadets used to join BA on a reduced salary, without the bond refund. Cadets joining Easy used to be on a reduced salary, which plus bond redund = normal JFO salary. I therefore can't believe new cadets will receive a full JFO 'renumeration package' plus the bond. I stand to be corrected).

Furthermore, look at the figures.

CTC used to demand £60,000 for the Wings Course. Once you joined your airline (easyJet for example), they repaid to you £84,000- £1000 a month tax free for 7 years. Why? Because at the typical interest rates at the time, £84,000 would be the repayable amount to HSBC including interest.

BA are demanding £84,000, and offering to repay this same amount, thus the interest (which over the life of the loan you could expect to be around £33,000, probably more if you take the BA associated loan- opinion, unverified) is to be born by the applicant. So if your bank agrees to delay repayments for 2 years, then a 7 year repayment term, the amount to repay will be significantly more each month than the £1000 BA returns to you. Or if the bank agrees to £1000 a month repayment, after 7 years you will still have several years worth of repayments left.

Yes, if you want to buy a fATPL and a type rating, you could do a lot worse than paying £84,000 with a chance of a job at the end of it. But please BA, don't pretend that you or anyone else is going to carry the financial burden.

Go in with your eyes open- old CTC wings applicants were led to believe their bond would be repaid and there was no cost to them- the cost was a salary of £1000 a month for 6 months then a salary reduced by the amount of the bond repayment each month- in other words, the applicant ended up paying for everything in the end. Someone has to!

Flame away
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 19:52
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goldcup - thank you for asking, but no I did not. I am in my fifties and have never filled-in the application form. Consequently I have not had the experience of being turned down. I was in the RAF for many years and took a different route upon leaving which I have, thus far, had no cause to regret. At my age and stage it would be professional suicide to join BA, but for a young lad/lass in their early twenties it would be very difficult to recommend any other choice of company

I am, however, a Training Captain at easyJet and am very familiar with the product you consider 'sadly lacking'. In years gone by BA recruited likely young folk to go to Hamble and then carried all the risk themselves in taking them onto the more demanding airline flying. No longer. They now have the likes of CTC who run a very thorough recruiting system and, better still, get the aspiring pilot to pay for it all themselves. They then hand the successful candidates over to easyJet who take all the risk and all the hassle with young pilots who are going through all the struggles we have all had. At the end of 18 months or so you have a top-quality, highly-trained Airbus or 737 pilot who has flown all over Europe in all weathers. He or she has been subject to a rigid training regime that has done everything within its power to produce the very best from that individual. They then go through the BA selection system and in most cases, not surprisingly, do very well. BA are gifted a polished individual who is keen as mustard, but young enough to be molded to the BA way - and yet, another company has taken all the risks. Does it get any better?

Now, as 757_driver has so clearly said, it is BA's train set and they can choose whoever they want. If some young chap applies to BA believing they owe him a job, they are going to get shown the door pretty quickly. The nature of youth is that it is foolish, and some people have to learn the hard way about preparing correctly. I have personally known many young easyJet pilots who have been accepted by BA and a few who have not. My honest observation is that, like all selection systems, mistakes are made. They have taken a few people they should not and rejected some people they should have grabbed gratefully. Overall, however, they have got it about right. EasyJet are providing BA with a source of top quality, highly-motivated pilots. There are probably now literally hundreds of ex-easyJet pilots at BA - that statistic alone says that easyJet are doing something right and that goldcup's statement is, as I said originally, 'utter sanctimonious codswallop and drivel'.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 22:05
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Goldcup you [email protected] - in my positive, glass half full opinion it is not possible to fail any selection. It is however possible to not be selected. You can't fail something so subjective.

As for being bitter- I am about the selection process and lack of feedback yes but not about not being at Ba. How could I be? I have a great job with a great company.

To reiterate, vexed and Alexander have said it perfectly.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 22:12
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I wonder if BALPA got taken out for dinner and movie before giving BA the rimjob.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 00:53
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BALPA wakens up ? ? ? they were always awake, and "shaking" the right hands, it is US who have been asleep.
Freemasonic [email protected] !
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 10:21
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Meerkat,

Good post.

Goldcup,

Having tried to recruit a load of type rated guys and girls who were desperate to escape from Ryanair and Easyjet, BA soon realised that the product was sadly lacking.
Lest you get too smug...

Jury clears BA pilot Robert Brown of wife's murder but judge jails him for 26 years - mirror.co.uk

I wonder which part of the recruitment process he aced? Critical reasoning?

I still have no idea why the jury did what they did...



And finally, I hope banks continue to decline to lend £84K to prospective pilots, and that airlines face up to their responsibility to shoulder, at least, some of the costs again.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 11:20
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Goldcup, I am not au fait with youth language but I think the term is you've been pwned by Meerkat

Excellent reply Meerkat.

For the record Goldcup I've not been rejected by BA as I've never applied as it doesn't suit my lifestyle. What I can tell you is that BA recruitment doesn't get it all right as two [email protected] were taken on by BA who were refused commands at my airline for very sound reasons.

In the main though I think BA is a great company, I assume you don't work for them Goldcup....
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