Article on VUELING pilots living like gipsies
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As much as I detest P2F, and even paid TRs, I don't blame the wannabes who sign up for them.
No one can predict what the recruitment market will be like when they finish training. Ask anyone who started in mid 2007 (when recruitment was booming) and finished early 2009.
With the exception of sponsored cadets (when was the last time there was one of those schemes in EU?), we all took a risk with our flight training. Some of us are lucky and emerge into recruitment boom, some aren't and emerge into a period of stagnation.
If you finish your training and the only jobs available are P2F, what do you do? You could take the moral high ground and say "no, I refuse to pay to work" - but what will that achieve? There will ALWAYS be someone else willing to take the job. If you can afford to hold out for something better then you may be lucky. But you'll be sitting there watching you Ģ70k license getting staler by the day while the flight schools turn out hundreds of fresh competitors every month. In that situation, what would you do? If it were your brother/sister, what would you advise them? Would you tell them to hold out, or would you tell them go for the P2F, suck it up for a few years and hopefully move on to a decent job at the first opportunity? I honestly don't know what I'd do.
So what's my point? - Wannabes will NEVER be able to stop P2F schemes and the degradation of T&Cs that they cause.
Management obviously have no interest in stopping such schemes. There is one group of people who are both responsible for the inception of P2F, and this same group are the only ones who are (may be) in a position to put an end to them. These people are of course, current unionised pilots.
Iberia (who owns Vueling if I'm not mistaken) have one of the strongest unions in Europe. If the Iberia union (with the support of some Vueling pilots) went to Iberia management and told them they were going to down tools until P2F was scrapped, how long would the scheme last?
I can't imagine P2F is a core part of Vueling's business model - it obviously improves the bottom line slightly, but would management really be up for industrial action to ensure the scheme continued? I doubt it.
This same principle can be applied to both the BMI and Easyjet P2F schemes (I don't know if these schemes are still operating), both airlines with good union recognition.
In summary, if you don't like what P2F is doing to the industry, don't blame the wannabes that are signing up for it. Blame the pilots/unions who allowed their management make P2F the only option for the wannabes.
No one can predict what the recruitment market will be like when they finish training. Ask anyone who started in mid 2007 (when recruitment was booming) and finished early 2009.
With the exception of sponsored cadets (when was the last time there was one of those schemes in EU?), we all took a risk with our flight training. Some of us are lucky and emerge into recruitment boom, some aren't and emerge into a period of stagnation.
If you finish your training and the only jobs available are P2F, what do you do? You could take the moral high ground and say "no, I refuse to pay to work" - but what will that achieve? There will ALWAYS be someone else willing to take the job. If you can afford to hold out for something better then you may be lucky. But you'll be sitting there watching you Ģ70k license getting staler by the day while the flight schools turn out hundreds of fresh competitors every month. In that situation, what would you do? If it were your brother/sister, what would you advise them? Would you tell them to hold out, or would you tell them go for the P2F, suck it up for a few years and hopefully move on to a decent job at the first opportunity? I honestly don't know what I'd do.
So what's my point? - Wannabes will NEVER be able to stop P2F schemes and the degradation of T&Cs that they cause.
Management obviously have no interest in stopping such schemes. There is one group of people who are both responsible for the inception of P2F, and this same group are the only ones who are (may be) in a position to put an end to them. These people are of course, current unionised pilots.
Iberia (who owns Vueling if I'm not mistaken) have one of the strongest unions in Europe. If the Iberia union (with the support of some Vueling pilots) went to Iberia management and told them they were going to down tools until P2F was scrapped, how long would the scheme last?
I can't imagine P2F is a core part of Vueling's business model - it obviously improves the bottom line slightly, but would management really be up for industrial action to ensure the scheme continued? I doubt it.
This same principle can be applied to both the BMI and Easyjet P2F schemes (I don't know if these schemes are still operating), both airlines with good union recognition.
In summary, if you don't like what P2F is doing to the industry, don't blame the wannabes that are signing up for it. Blame the pilots/unions who allowed their management make P2F the only option for the wannabes.
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Blame the pilots/unions who allowed their management make P2F the only option for the wannabes.
The only way P2F will disappear is if the European Union rules it illegal due to labour laws or if EASA/National CAA decides that it is unsafe. I doubt ether of these things will happen for a very long time unless there is a serious incident or accident, or the media figure out a way to explain and make it interesting to the general public causing some kind of outcry.
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BALPA struggle to get even a 1-2% payrise for their members and even then its at the loss of other benefits, usually starting with those of the F/O's. Pilot unions are pretty toothless really and to expect them to be able to put an end to this P2F situation is not realistic at all.
Keep in mind that the 1-2% pay-rise you mention, for the entire pilot workforce, will cost a company much, much more than any lost revenue from scrapping a P2F scheme. A realistic, intelligent union can be quite strong, I think a lack of interest from current pilots is a bigger problem.
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How can they afford to live in a car on THAT wage?
It costs me more than that just to insure the Aston!
Welcome to the real world boys and girls, if you want to see just where the next mass of P2F slavering drones are, have a look on the wannabees pages.
Sadly P2F will be here until the safety authorities kill it.
Thankfully something is being done in the states after the Buffalo crash but while the EASA is currently in the pocket of one certain LCC registered in Ireland they seem to be blissfully sailing off in the other direction.
It costs me more than that just to insure the Aston!
Welcome to the real world boys and girls, if you want to see just where the next mass of P2F slavering drones are, have a look on the wannabees pages.
Sadly P2F will be here until the safety authorities kill it.
Thankfully something is being done in the states after the Buffalo crash but while the EASA is currently in the pocket of one certain LCC registered in Ireland they seem to be blissfully sailing off in the other direction.
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With the amount of negativity P2F generates and the way pilots chastise their employers for running these schemes, you would have thought that BALPA would make it a major campaign to get members behind it and try to put an end to P2F, but last time I flicked through a copy of The Log it even had adverts for such schemes.
As you mentioned, easyJet is one of the highest utilisers in the UK of P2F cadets but also one of the most heavily unionised, so if that airlines workforce isn't prepared or can't act against it, what hope is there?
For BA and Iberia to strike could make a difference but is it really fair to ask these pilots to strike, causing huge financial losses to their respective airlines when those airlines have no involvement with P2F schemes anyway? Especially when they offer good T+C and training to new joiners?
And lets not forget, the company which is blamed for starting all this (Ryanair) doesn't even have a recognised union at all so its crews would just have to carry on as normal, and in fact I'm sure MOL would be more than happy to offer cheap flights to all those pax who would be affected by strike action.
I think what needs to happen is for somebody to point out to their MP or to HMRC or to make some kind of legal challenge to the European courts against business's that are charging for training, not paying minimum wage and handing out unfair contracts. If its deemed illegal (which it should be) then companies just couldn't do it anymore.
Although I didnt always think so, I do now agree with you and think it is wrong to blame wannabees for the P2F. They are just trying to get on the first rung of the ladder and are receiving no solid professional advice on what to do or where to turn next.
However I think the solution lies with the regulators and owners, not the users of, EU airspace.
As you mentioned, easyJet is one of the highest utilisers in the UK of P2F cadets but also one of the most heavily unionised, so if that airlines workforce isn't prepared or can't act against it, what hope is there?
For BA and Iberia to strike could make a difference but is it really fair to ask these pilots to strike, causing huge financial losses to their respective airlines when those airlines have no involvement with P2F schemes anyway? Especially when they offer good T+C and training to new joiners?
And lets not forget, the company which is blamed for starting all this (Ryanair) doesn't even have a recognised union at all so its crews would just have to carry on as normal, and in fact I'm sure MOL would be more than happy to offer cheap flights to all those pax who would be affected by strike action.
I think what needs to happen is for somebody to point out to their MP or to HMRC or to make some kind of legal challenge to the European courts against business's that are charging for training, not paying minimum wage and handing out unfair contracts. If its deemed illegal (which it should be) then companies just couldn't do it anymore.
Although I didnt always think so, I do now agree with you and think it is wrong to blame wannabees for the P2F. They are just trying to get on the first rung of the ladder and are receiving no solid professional advice on what to do or where to turn next.
However I think the solution lies with the regulators and owners, not the users of, EU airspace.
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As you mentioned, easyJet is one of the highest utilisers in the UK of P2F cadets but also one of the most heavily unionised, so if that airlines workforce isn't prepared or can't act against it, what hope is there?
The problem is that current pilots have a real vested interest in fighting a pay-cut, but, beyond moaning about it, they don't seem willing to fight P2F.
For BA and Iberia to strike could make a difference but is it really fair to ask these pilots to strike, causing huge financial losses to their respective airlines when those airlines have no involvement with P2F schemes anyway? Especially when they offer good T+C and training to new joiners?
The reason P2F doesn't happen at BA/Iberia isn't because we have a wonderful, caring management. It doesn't happen because our management know the pilots simply wouldn't accept it.
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Vueling seems to become one of the worst airlines in the world. I remember this company started professional years ago. Since the merge with Clickair it deteriorated so quickly.
Now:
*Payments are one of the worst in European aviation
*Very low houred first officers
*Pay to fly principle implemented
*Cabin att. on 6 month contracts (6 in, 6 out)
*Crews not able to speak english whatsoever
*Only 30 leave days (of which you cannot choose 15 of them)
*Low duty pays 12-24 euros for a F/O
*Old aircraft
What will be next...
Go Vueling Go!!!
Now:
*Payments are one of the worst in European aviation
*Very low houred first officers
*Pay to fly principle implemented
*Cabin att. on 6 month contracts (6 in, 6 out)
*Crews not able to speak english whatsoever
*Only 30 leave days (of which you cannot choose 15 of them)
*Low duty pays 12-24 euros for a F/O
*Old aircraft
What will be next...
Go Vueling Go!!!
The reason P2F doesn't happen at BA/Iberia isn't because we have a wonderful, caring management. It doesn't happen because our management know the pilots simply wouldn't accept it.
Why would you pay an Iberia A320 FO 5000 euros/month when you can get a Vueling pilot working twice more with no nghtstps for half the salary? Do the maths...
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Wrong! Iberia is done! IB is giving lots of their routes to Vueling, with more aircraft and they are now planing to create Vueling Atlantic in order to get Iberia long haul routes as well.
What I can tell you is that BALPA won't allow BA outsource any flying without a fight - we were about to walk out the door over Open Skies until we got shafted by some bullsh!t EU legislation. I believe P2F would be viewed with equal contempt if suggested by BA management.
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Well, British Airways has always been recruiting Direct Entries onto B777 or B747 instead of promoting medium haul current FOs, does it sound great to you and Balpa? Would Air France and Lufthansa pilots allow that crap?
As for Iberia, they will never hire again more people, they will slowly vanish and become Vueling and Vueling atlantic, just like Binter Canarias and Naysa.
Imprimir Página - Iberia decide que Vueling opere algunas de sus rutas
As for Iberia, they will never hire again more people, they will slowly vanish and become Vueling and Vueling atlantic, just like Binter Canarias and Naysa.
Imprimir Página - Iberia decide que Vueling opere algunas de sus rutas
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Pay to fly scrapped at Vueling negotiated by SeplaVueling Union
The pay to fly is over at Vueling, as the union has finally come to an agreement. An agreement has been made for no more pay to fly pilots in the future. Also all the pay to fly pilots have been given temporary contracts ( and will be paid ) as negotiated by the union. The pay is low
The Sepla Vueling union is new and started in 2009, they need to get tougher and play hardball with their management. It looks they are starting to get tougher as they are starting to gather more support from their pilots. We want them to get tougher against a tough management, they need the support of the Vueling pilots and it looks like they are getting it.
We pilots need to participate more, go to union meetings and support our unions more rather than just bitch.
Sepla Iberia is in negotiations for its collective agreement when the negotiations broke off and did not progress, Iberia has given production temporarily to Vueling until October and Iberia comes to an agreement or decides....
Iberia is putting pressure on its pilots to accept very cheap entry level FOīs. Itīs pilots proposed cheap entry level FOīs but management wants them to go even lower
Even if Iberia and Sepla Iberia had come to an agreement, Iberia would have been to slow to have the production ready.
Sepla Iberia wants to sign an agreement with the Sepla Vueling union.
As BALPA and SEPLA have an arrangement. ( See SEPLA-BALPA thread )
Could IAG outsource more work to Vueling in the future ?
Then Vueling could even affect BA pilots a possible scenario ?
Sorry buy Vueling pilots have way better conditions than Ryanair and Wizz and other low cost carriers in Europe. Sick leave pay. If a guy takes extra fuel in Vueling no one bothers him.
The Sepla Vueling union is new and started in 2009, they need to get tougher and play hardball with their management. It looks they are starting to get tougher as they are starting to gather more support from their pilots. We want them to get tougher against a tough management, they need the support of the Vueling pilots and it looks like they are getting it.
We pilots need to participate more, go to union meetings and support our unions more rather than just bitch.
Sepla Iberia is in negotiations for its collective agreement when the negotiations broke off and did not progress, Iberia has given production temporarily to Vueling until October and Iberia comes to an agreement or decides....
Iberia is putting pressure on its pilots to accept very cheap entry level FOīs. Itīs pilots proposed cheap entry level FOīs but management wants them to go even lower
Even if Iberia and Sepla Iberia had come to an agreement, Iberia would have been to slow to have the production ready.
Sepla Iberia wants to sign an agreement with the Sepla Vueling union.
As BALPA and SEPLA have an arrangement. ( See SEPLA-BALPA thread )
Could IAG outsource more work to Vueling in the future ?
Then Vueling could even affect BA pilots a possible scenario ?
Sorry buy Vueling pilots have way better conditions than Ryanair and Wizz and other low cost carriers in Europe. Sick leave pay. If a guy takes extra fuel in Vueling no one bothers him.
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I don't believe you have worked for Ryanair, I have.
Extra fuel ? no problem, just make a note on the voyage report.. . . remember the Vueling Capt who was sacked for refusing to fly during the volcanic fiasco ? pot/kettle/black.
Even in a bad month, and certainly if one looks at a whole year, I am 100% sure a Ryanair F/O, contract or permanent, takes home more cash than his counterpart in Vueling.
Agreed it is cr@p, but not THAT cr@p.
If you want to compare Ryanair unfavourably with Iberia, feel free, I will agree with you, but please don't try to say Vueling is a better job.
If it is, how come we have SO many Spanish F/O's in Ryanair, none of whom seem to be in any rush to join Vueling ?
Extra fuel ? no problem, just make a note on the voyage report.. . . remember the Vueling Capt who was sacked for refusing to fly during the volcanic fiasco ? pot/kettle/black.
Even in a bad month, and certainly if one looks at a whole year, I am 100% sure a Ryanair F/O, contract or permanent, takes home more cash than his counterpart in Vueling.
Agreed it is cr@p, but not THAT cr@p.
If you want to compare Ryanair unfavourably with Iberia, feel free, I will agree with you, but please don't try to say Vueling is a better job.
If it is, how come we have SO many Spanish F/O's in Ryanair, none of whom seem to be in any rush to join Vueling ?
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Sepla Iberia wants to sign an agreement with the Sepla Vueling union.
As BALPA and SEPLA have an arrangement. ( See SEPLA-BALPA thread )
As BALPA and SEPLA have an arrangement. ( See SEPLA-BALPA thread )
Sepla stoped the P2F cadetship but everybody hired at vueling will need to pay 40 000 euros for the TR and circuits (housing not included) and they will have a FULL basic salary of 850 euros. Such a victory.
If you want to compare Ryanair unfavourably with Iberia, feel free, I will agree with you, but please don't try to say Vueling is a better job.
And when MOL launches MAD-BCN, Iberia and Vueling will **** in their pants.
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Well, British Airways has always been recruiting Direct Entries onto B777 or B747 instead of promoting medium haul current FOs, does it sound great to you and Balpa? Would Air France and Lufthansa pilots allow that crap?
This training year, there were not enough un-frozen internal bidders for the 747 - hence the DEPs onto the 747.
The system is perfectly fair, reasonable and transparent. By your logic, in times of heavy expansion/recruitment, people would joining and spending very short periods of time on their initial fleet and then moving to longhaul. The training costs would be astronomical, it simply wouldn't work.
When you join you are assigned a certain fleet (which you know of when offered the job). BA simply require that you spend 5 years on it before moving to another fleet. I have yet to meet someone who found that unreasonable.
I don't know what happens at Lufthansa of Air France, so I can't comment.
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Could IAG outsource more work to Vueling in the future ?
Then Vueling could even affect BA pilots a possible scenario ?
Then Vueling could even affect BA pilots a possible scenario ?
That's why if SEPLA ask for my support (through BALPA), they'll get it. United we stand....
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I don't know what happens at Lufthansa of Air France, so I can't comment.
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Airline companies make money with their annex outfits (handling companies, engineering companies, TRTOs, etc, etc...) that's why it's no problem for Air France and Lufthansa and many others, including Iberia when it was a powerful airline. Also it is true that AF and LH have A320 and A330/34 which makes the conversion course very cheap. Is "clever" an english word? 
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cojones
You are right about the lower pay at Vueling versus Ryanair.
We all agree it is pathetic this Vueling FO pay scheme is not acceptable.
Ryanair pilots do not pay into the social security system in Spain.
At least Vueling pays the healthcare tax seguridad social for it's pilots in Spain.
Yes they pay slave wages but there is a little sick leave pay
catplay and windcheck have you read the BOE and seen Vueling's collective agreement ?
busdriver
you have the right idea about getting united
An example is
It is for me embarassing and sad that a ex cadet now Vueling now with a crap temporary contract who has come from the military to Vueling and with 900 hours of Falcon 900 command time.
I am pissed and I want Vueling pilots and Sepla to grow cojones. they can.
Windcheck what do you suggestt they do to show their cojones strike
it scares them if vueling and iberia pilots get united
How the hell is that this quality guy is getting only a few Euros more than a 200 hour guy.
Vueling does not deserve such a guy at this pay but him sigining up for it screws us all.
We all agree it is pathetic this Vueling FO pay scheme is not acceptable.
Ryanair pilots do not pay into the social security system in Spain.
At least Vueling pays the healthcare tax seguridad social for it's pilots in Spain.
Yes they pay slave wages but there is a little sick leave pay
catplay and windcheck have you read the BOE and seen Vueling's collective agreement ?
busdriver
you have the right idea about getting united
An example is
It is for me embarassing and sad that a ex cadet now Vueling now with a crap temporary contract who has come from the military to Vueling and with 900 hours of Falcon 900 command time.
I am pissed and I want Vueling pilots and Sepla to grow cojones. they can.
Windcheck what do you suggestt they do to show their cojones strike
it scares them if vueling and iberia pilots get united
How the hell is that this quality guy is getting only a few Euros more than a 200 hour guy.
Vueling does not deserve such a guy at this pay but him sigining up for it screws us all.
Last edited by Hannibalpower; 3rd Apr 2011 at 00:08.
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Windcheck what do you suggestt they do to show their cojones strike
Otherwise let vueling go, go vueling go, go, go away
"Vueling, The first airline of new generation, la primera compaņia de nueva generacion" ahahahahh What a laugh!