Ryanair Standbys
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Handbags at 12 O'clock! lol
Jesus lets all have a pop at each other, I suppose its too cold to go out into the street and have a fight so where better than on here
I have a quieter month this month but still 58hours, its all about where you are based, yea would be nice if the new F/O's did not appear until summer but thats cash off the bottom line so totally expected from FR, there trying to make money not friends, middle ground would be nice but its a Looooooooooong way off I recon still
I planned for a quite winter so took care of a lot of financial stuff in the summer when I could, still going to be a bit lean over winter but in fairness looking at €58k top line for the year, I should be able to buy bread and water or I am just an idiot!
loads of new F/O's with new BMW's and such in Ryanair, well that £350 a month payment is easy in summer with 5-6K dropping on the mat, but maybe it should be £120 for a Ford Focus guys and not have to moan over the winter, Just a thought
Jesus lets all have a pop at each other, I suppose its too cold to go out into the street and have a fight so where better than on here
I have a quieter month this month but still 58hours, its all about where you are based, yea would be nice if the new F/O's did not appear until summer but thats cash off the bottom line so totally expected from FR, there trying to make money not friends, middle ground would be nice but its a Looooooooooong way off I recon still
I planned for a quite winter so took care of a lot of financial stuff in the summer when I could, still going to be a bit lean over winter but in fairness looking at €58k top line for the year, I should be able to buy bread and water or I am just an idiot!
loads of new F/O's with new BMW's and such in Ryanair, well that £350 a month payment is easy in summer with 5-6K dropping on the mat, but maybe it should be £120 for a Ford Focus guys and not have to moan over the winter, Just a thought
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spandex, please advise on other ways to get into this industry? Just who is it that currently plays for your type rating when starting out? Clearly I missed a trick there! Easiest?? – there was nothing east about my journey into this game I assure you it came with great sacrifice hardship and dedication. Least amount of effort? Surely an ATPL , type rating and line training require the same amount of effort from anyone regardless of who pays for it – not quite sure the point your making there fella?
Easiest does not imply easy, least amount of effort does not imply effortless. But getting an fATPL isn't getting in to the industry is it. Getting a job is getting in to the industry. What did you do? Paid for it. Easier than being patient, gaining experience and earning the job you hold now.
You have sowed nothing, as you admit, and you are now reaping nothing.
I'll ask again, what did your contract say? The one that you signed, can't really complain when you get what you signed up for.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spandex, Fair enough I bow to your better knowledge, in my search for a job I found no airline interested in paying for my training.
What did I do to get into the industry? Well let me tell you as I couldn’t get into the industry initially I did an instructing course and also worked as a dispatcher both with the intent of helping me to get that all important foot in the door, both of these factors showed that I was working in the industry rather than just buying my way in as you imply. Ok so I paid for my TR but like I said before I couldnt find any airlines paying for your training nowdays, perhaps 1 or 2 bond you, but is that soo different?
As for my contract its not necessarily what you are implying, but Im not going to state it publicly here for as Shaun has reminded me, it’s a public forum.
What did I do to get into the industry? Well let me tell you as I couldn’t get into the industry initially I did an instructing course and also worked as a dispatcher both with the intent of helping me to get that all important foot in the door, both of these factors showed that I was working in the industry rather than just buying my way in as you imply. Ok so I paid for my TR but like I said before I couldnt find any airlines paying for your training nowdays, perhaps 1 or 2 bond you, but is that soo different?
As for my contract its not necessarily what you are implying, but Im not going to state it publicly here for as Shaun has reminded me, it’s a public forum.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DD, good for you for trying at least. I'm sorry your efforts didn't pay off and you had to pay more for a job.
Without giving away any details in your contract could you tell me if you are surprised that you aren't getting a minimum number of hours?
The difference between a bond and paying for a TR is that at no time was I out of pocket when I was training. It cost the airline to train me.
Without giving away any details in your contract could you tell me if you are surprised that you aren't getting a minimum number of hours?
The difference between a bond and paying for a TR is that at no time was I out of pocket when I was training. It cost the airline to train me.
Do the math
DD, I suggest you do an analysis of what you will earn in the next 5 years and see where you are wrt to your outlay for a TR. Say you pay it off in the 5 years, what is your net going to be?
Then figure out what you might have earned going Lord underpants route. Lets see a few years instructing, you'd get what 15K a year if you were very lucky, a year of charter a not much more and then a big break, flying a twin turbo prop at maybe 25K a year. You'd might gross in 5 years what you'll get in year 5 at FR.
5 years from now you will have 3-4 K in 738 time, maybe some command time. What price will you command then, particularly if you will travel? Lots of posts on here from people with thousand of TP hours who can't get a look, you won't be one of them.
Fact is you made a very smart move paying for your TR and getting on to jets early. You are setting yourself up for life. If I was a young guy starting out that is exactly what I would do.
You correctly pointed out it is not the entrants who set T&C, its the market. The senior guys on the inside might have some leverage but would they use it to help the newbies? Hasn't happened yet and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it.
Then figure out what you might have earned going Lord underpants route. Lets see a few years instructing, you'd get what 15K a year if you were very lucky, a year of charter a not much more and then a big break, flying a twin turbo prop at maybe 25K a year. You'd might gross in 5 years what you'll get in year 5 at FR.
5 years from now you will have 3-4 K in 738 time, maybe some command time. What price will you command then, particularly if you will travel? Lots of posts on here from people with thousand of TP hours who can't get a look, you won't be one of them.
Fact is you made a very smart move paying for your TR and getting on to jets early. You are setting yourself up for life. If I was a young guy starting out that is exactly what I would do.
You correctly pointed out it is not the entrants who set T&C, its the market. The senior guys on the inside might have some leverage but would they use it to help the newbies? Hasn't happened yet and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: on earth
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice to see that Ryanair will still be out of trouble for a long time as we continue to fight against each other instead of trying to work together against Ryanair to improve our working conditions...
Is it really important to find out who is responsible for the decrease in our terms and conditions ?
It would be better to use that energy to get it back where it was and to even higher....
Is it really important to find out who is responsible for the decrease in our terms and conditions ?
It would be better to use that energy to get it back where it was and to even higher....
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North of civilisation
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ VJW
'Shaun, probably a BA FO for next decade, thinking he's better then everyone else?'
'Course he is, Daddy paid for ATPL Intg course, and helped him get into BA hahaha, easy too no!'
Weren't you the one spouting on about 'bettering your chance' of making it into the right hand seat at BA?? why are you taking the p!ss out of somebody who actually got the job that you wanted! Didn't you get it, and that's why a 10year wait for command is so laughable?
How's that assumption?
'Shaun, probably a BA FO for next decade, thinking he's better then everyone else?'
'Course he is, Daddy paid for ATPL Intg course, and helped him get into BA hahaha, easy too no!'
Weren't you the one spouting on about 'bettering your chance' of making it into the right hand seat at BA?? why are you taking the p!ss out of somebody who actually got the job that you wanted! Didn't you get it, and that's why a 10year wait for command is so laughable?
How's that assumption?
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: World
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, we're all on the same damn team here. Have you ever seen doctors of different hospital treat each other in this way? Have you ever seen teachers pick on their young students in ways I see older pilots pick on cadets?
C'mon Guys!
With regards to Ryanair. I wouldn't say the exodus has begun. But I'm seeing some distinct movement in my base (central Europe). I know of at least 4 FO's with interviews lined up in the sandpit. One of them has already passed his sim check.
The base TRE in Pisa has quit because PB didn't live up to his word. That wouldn't have happened 2 or 3 years ago.
To the youngster flying in my company I always give the same words of advice. Build your hours up to 3000 and get your ATPL meanwhile. After 2500 start applying for other companies.
C'mon Guys!
With regards to Ryanair. I wouldn't say the exodus has begun. But I'm seeing some distinct movement in my base (central Europe). I know of at least 4 FO's with interviews lined up in the sandpit. One of them has already passed his sim check.
The base TRE in Pisa has quit because PB didn't live up to his word. That wouldn't have happened 2 or 3 years ago.
To the youngster flying in my company I always give the same words of advice. Build your hours up to 3000 and get your ATPL meanwhile. After 2500 start applying for other companies.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Spandex, Thanks for that, I do appreciate it! I did try but with no airline work for over a year and having to renew the IR - (unpleasant and expensive!) I did become increasingly desperate. Despite my 2 jobs within the industry it was still only FR where I finally got a door open to me. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I agree a bond is better as you dont have the difficulty of having to find even more cash when your at your most skint although the reduced pay for some time afterwards would be a bit of a PITA but overall a better option if you are lucky enough to have options![/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']To answer your question Im probably not that surprised about getting less than minimum hours as its FR, it is the place where the mgt do what they like with zero regard for you, I just didnt expect it to be quite as scare on the flying this winter as it is, although last winter was quiet, it wasnt this quiet, I think that also has a lot to do with where your based and it seems that Im in a particularly quiet base. Such is life.[/FONT]
In reply to another post, I have to agree with 20driver, although I don’t wish anyone to get stuck in props, I think it is ultimately good to get on to the jet early. He also mentions “t[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']he senior guys on the inside might have some leverage but would they use it to help the newbies? Hasn't happened yet and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it.” [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I also agree with this, The older experienced pilots in this industry have sat back and watched the new cadets continually getting more shafted in this game and LET it happen they haven’t come out united and said, “hang on this treatment of our fellow pilots is unacceptable” and made a stance to help us out. They sit back on their better (although decreasing) T&Cs and just blame the new starter who is just trying to get on in life. They want us to be united and say "No", they could well use the saying "practice what you preach" [/FONT]
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: uk
Age: 37
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To get the thread back on track;
Take an average of 800 hours per year;
800/12 = 66.6 hours per month
if your pay rate is 70.5 then budget on 4700 euros gross per month. In the summer if you do 100 hours, then bank the 33.3 hours of extra block pay in order to not be down on your month off of zero hours.
its not rocket science
Take an average of 800 hours per year;
800/12 = 66.6 hours per month
if your pay rate is 70.5 then budget on 4700 euros gross per month. In the summer if you do 100 hours, then bank the 33.3 hours of extra block pay in order to not be down on your month off of zero hours.
its not rocket science
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newcastle NI
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Catch 22 with Ryanair the more successful they are the less airlines out there to offer jobs on proper T&C's, and by any measure Ryanair BRK contract is basically a scam, it's contractors are not by any reasonable definition self employed, can you imagine a plumber sitting around without pay on standby for days on end for one customers?
Once you cross the line of charging for reading a job application form, then it was only ever going one way and there is a lot further to go yet.
I would not be surprised to see MOL's idea of a free market result in a system of bidding for work blocks, so in December you can bid for 80 hours work in Feb, the bidding will close on the 5th of Jan and the pilot(s) with the lowest price will get the hours,its a win win, the pilot with lowest cost (lives at home with Mummy and rides to work & no girl friend) get to build hours until he can get a job elsewhere, Ryanair want/need people to leave this allows another motivated fresh face cadet with his Dad's credit card to help keep flights cheaper.
Of course eventually some thing will give or Michael Moore will do a film about Ryanair that will scare the pants of the punters, my bet is on the collapse of the Euro and the bun fight that will follow.
Forget unions, the biggest BALPA couldn't organise a piss up in brewery in Ryanairs case. Don't blame the cadet's they have been sold a pipe dream too!!
Once you cross the line of charging for reading a job application form, then it was only ever going one way and there is a lot further to go yet.
I would not be surprised to see MOL's idea of a free market result in a system of bidding for work blocks, so in December you can bid for 80 hours work in Feb, the bidding will close on the 5th of Jan and the pilot(s) with the lowest price will get the hours,its a win win, the pilot with lowest cost (lives at home with Mummy and rides to work & no girl friend) get to build hours until he can get a job elsewhere, Ryanair want/need people to leave this allows another motivated fresh face cadet with his Dad's credit card to help keep flights cheaper.
Of course eventually some thing will give or Michael Moore will do a film about Ryanair that will scare the pants of the punters, my bet is on the collapse of the Euro and the bun fight that will follow.
Forget unions, the biggest BALPA couldn't organise a piss up in brewery in Ryanairs case. Don't blame the cadet's they have been sold a pipe dream too!!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UAE
Age: 44
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to correct,
Rostered average 758 per flying year, divide that by 10 as you get one month unpaid, 2 blocks of 5 days and recurrent training which amounts to another month unpaid.
So average should be 75.8hrs per month. Personally I'm no where near that, flew 98hrs in June then averaged 65hrs during remaining summer months.
Last month 50hrs, this month 35hrs. At the start of Novemebr I had flown 435hrs since April.
Its getting more depressing and becoming more and more difficult to put away for the winter. Dont get me wrong there are guys doing 80-100hrs last couple of months and those with 80+ this month. There seems to be no fairness in the system with how the hours are distributed. One guy doing 80hrs in the month and another guy on the same 5 on 4 off days doing 40hrs. Somehow 60hrs each seems impossible to roster and I am aware of flight time limitations from chapter 8.
Never had a bad thing to say about Ryanair in the past but the increasing amount of standbys are a joke. Ive been with the company for over 3 years and been called off standby only three times.
Why should a collegue with the same qualification and experience as you earn a third more for the same job due to a rostering system.
Anyway rant over.
Check out page 106 for info regarding hours and productivity.
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/investor/...t_2010_web.pdf
Rostered average 758 per flying year, divide that by 10 as you get one month unpaid, 2 blocks of 5 days and recurrent training which amounts to another month unpaid.
So average should be 75.8hrs per month. Personally I'm no where near that, flew 98hrs in June then averaged 65hrs during remaining summer months.
Last month 50hrs, this month 35hrs. At the start of Novemebr I had flown 435hrs since April.
Its getting more depressing and becoming more and more difficult to put away for the winter. Dont get me wrong there are guys doing 80-100hrs last couple of months and those with 80+ this month. There seems to be no fairness in the system with how the hours are distributed. One guy doing 80hrs in the month and another guy on the same 5 on 4 off days doing 40hrs. Somehow 60hrs each seems impossible to roster and I am aware of flight time limitations from chapter 8.
Never had a bad thing to say about Ryanair in the past but the increasing amount of standbys are a joke. Ive been with the company for over 3 years and been called off standby only three times.
Why should a collegue with the same qualification and experience as you earn a third more for the same job due to a rostering system.
Anyway rant over.
Check out page 106 for info regarding hours and productivity.
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/investor/...t_2010_web.pdf
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kempus?
758 Hours per year, you still divide it by 12 as there are 12month per year last I counted, yes you get a month off and days in blocks of 5, but you stil have 12 months of the year to pay rent or mortgage or both
so 758 X €80.50 for me = €61019 Divide by 12 = €5084.91 Gross PCM
Dont quite see the logic in the way your looking at it, maybe that explains why people are skint over winter, how can you not make 5k last a month, bills cant be that high unless your a total fool with a big house new posh car and all the new toys china has to offer.
Whats the problem here?
758 Hours per year, you still divide it by 12 as there are 12month per year last I counted, yes you get a month off and days in blocks of 5, but you stil have 12 months of the year to pay rent or mortgage or both
so 758 X €80.50 for me = €61019 Divide by 12 = €5084.91 Gross PCM
Dont quite see the logic in the way your looking at it, maybe that explains why people are skint over winter, how can you not make 5k last a month, bills cant be that high unless your a total fool with a big house new posh car and all the new toys china has to offer.
Whats the problem here?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UAE
Age: 44
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You seemed to have missed the whole point zero to hero! Its all about the complete uncertainty! One month you make enough then the next month you make barely enough to cover the bills or are having to pay off stuff from last winter when you were doing 20hrs per month. Yes when you earn a bit more you have the tendancy to spend more but why not? Why should I constantly count the pennies as I may only get 50 next month. There is no or very little pattern to it! I'd happily work 9 months a year if they gave me 750hrs in those months but they wont! No promises!
In my post I clearly stated I wasnt achieving the 758hrs which is an average by the way, and hopefully you know how to work that out as there are people at both ends of the spectrum and, kinda is what this whole thread is about! Those doing less than average for no apparent reason at all!
For your info I flew 705hrs last year(this year I dont think it will be legally poss to hit the average) so your figures cant apply to everyone so I'm cannot see at all how you can preach that! Say I did 300hrs x 80.5 = 24150/12 = 2012.50 = monthly take home 1480.35. Average mortgage is around 800 so leaves you 680.24! Its a relative to everyones situation so, to say how I cant live in x amount is none of your fecking business but just so you know i'll tell you anyway cos I think your a bit of a tallywhacker.
Modest car <23K, family, dont own a house(trying to save for one)t, student loan, training costs, insurance of multiple types because of being self employed, not to mention travel, food, car parking, private pension! You add it up and all of a sudden your 5k very quickly dries up and oh yeah, tax, national insurance as well and exchange rate fluctuations and it leaves you with close to bugger all for a rainy day!
Yeah if FR could guarantee 758hrs a year then to budget accordinly would be easy. But going from one month of 70hrs to half that the next to, as a lot of people find out, an unpaid month appearing on thier roster budgetting is difficult!
Anyway I await you comments on how good everything is and how we should live like a hermit to make your post feesible and put it all relative to your situation!
ps dont drink and pprune, where's that in chapter 8?
In my post I clearly stated I wasnt achieving the 758hrs which is an average by the way, and hopefully you know how to work that out as there are people at both ends of the spectrum and, kinda is what this whole thread is about! Those doing less than average for no apparent reason at all!
For your info I flew 705hrs last year(this year I dont think it will be legally poss to hit the average) so your figures cant apply to everyone so I'm cannot see at all how you can preach that! Say I did 300hrs x 80.5 = 24150/12 = 2012.50 = monthly take home 1480.35. Average mortgage is around 800 so leaves you 680.24! Its a relative to everyones situation so, to say how I cant live in x amount is none of your fecking business but just so you know i'll tell you anyway cos I think your a bit of a tallywhacker.
Modest car <23K, family, dont own a house(trying to save for one)t, student loan, training costs, insurance of multiple types because of being self employed, not to mention travel, food, car parking, private pension! You add it up and all of a sudden your 5k very quickly dries up and oh yeah, tax, national insurance as well and exchange rate fluctuations and it leaves you with close to bugger all for a rainy day!
Yeah if FR could guarantee 758hrs a year then to budget accordinly would be easy. But going from one month of 70hrs to half that the next to, as a lot of people find out, an unpaid month appearing on thier roster budgetting is difficult!
Anyway I await you comments on how good everything is and how we should live like a hermit to make your post feesible and put it all relative to your situation!
ps dont drink and pprune, where's that in chapter 8?
........and by any measure Ryanair BRK contract is basically a scam, it's contractors are not by any reasonable definition self employed...
<<The question of whether workers should be labeled employees or contractors largely hinges on whether employers control their activities>>
Sound familiar? Read the rest of the article.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Eire
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Facelookbovered I can't agree more the system is such that the management will always win.
This will never change until all ryanair pilots realise we need to stand togetheir wether its under the banner of REPA IALPA BALPA or ECAC .
Even if your a selfish person which i dont condon but there seems to be a lot of it in Ryanair, your selfish interest are best served in a union.
We can change the way we are treated with a small bit of effort from everyone.
Otherwise it will be like you say. there will be more and more scams to take our terms from us.
MOL and his chronies could be faced with a inevitable decision to cave in to the pilot group if its organised.
Because at the end of the day the Book stops with the Board of directors and the investers.
This will never change until all ryanair pilots realise we need to stand togetheir wether its under the banner of REPA IALPA BALPA or ECAC .
Even if your a selfish person which i dont condon but there seems to be a lot of it in Ryanair, your selfish interest are best served in a union.
We can change the way we are treated with a small bit of effort from everyone.
Otherwise it will be like you say. there will be more and more scams to take our terms from us.
MOL and his chronies could be faced with a inevitable decision to cave in to the pilot group if its organised.
Because at the end of the day the Book stops with the Board of directors and the investers.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: uk
Age: 37
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kempus if the rostered average is 758 then just times that by your hourly pay, divide by 12 then you have a gross number to budget on.
758 x 70.5 =53439
53439/12= 4453 euros per month budget
Have you agree with zerotohero on this, cant understand kempus's calculations.
If you bank all the pay you recieve thats more than 4453 then it covers your month off nicely.
I assume you are in a UK base so im not really surprised your hours are low, wouldnt really complain though as i know of 100's that would give their right bollock for a UK base and accept the reduction in hours.
758 x 70.5 =53439
53439/12= 4453 euros per month budget
Have you agree with zerotohero on this, cant understand kempus's calculations.
If you bank all the pay you recieve thats more than 4453 then it covers your month off nicely.
I assume you are in a UK base so im not really surprised your hours are low, wouldnt really complain though as i know of 100's that would give their right bollock for a UK base and accept the reduction in hours.