Ryanair Standbys
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Aggghhhhhhhhh!
What do you guys not understand????? Its nothing to do with what the average, whos calculations are right or wrong! The fact is you effectively get paid for 10 months work per year! If you are flying less than average on a constant basis where is the 'extra' as you say avaiable to bank if you outgoings are fixed and your income is variable and the majority of the time decreasing????
The whole point is there is no fairness in the system!! Why should the guy who gets in the seat after me earn a third more as his name is just because his name is alphabetically before mine!
So if you have the answers and as you clearly keep pointing out, can divide things by 12, why are some guys doing 3 standbys a week with 12hrs flying and others doing 30hrs no standby and above average on hours for the time of year??
What do you guys not understand????? Its nothing to do with what the average, whos calculations are right or wrong! The fact is you effectively get paid for 10 months work per year! If you are flying less than average on a constant basis where is the 'extra' as you say avaiable to bank if you outgoings are fixed and your income is variable and the majority of the time decreasing????
The whole point is there is no fairness in the system!! Why should the guy who gets in the seat after me earn a third more as his name is just because his name is alphabetically before mine!
So if you have the answers and as you clearly keep pointing out, can divide things by 12, why are some guys doing 3 standbys a week with 12hrs flying and others doing 30hrs no standby and above average on hours for the time of year??
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Even doing 40 hours is roughly 3600euro before tax, if we applied to Jet2, we would get much less than what people are complaining about here.
I believe they were offering something like £1800pm (2200e).
I believe they were offering something like £1800pm (2200e).
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Basic and guaranteed? Would be nice, could plan a little better! Still nice to see everyone is still avoiding the question regarding our Rostering system. Seniority apparently dosent exist yet it's the same guys out of base, same guys 70+ hrs per month!
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Kempus, I agree that the distribution of flights within the base seems to be random, There are some who get 2-3 canaries and back a week yet others get eg 1 Ireland and back and 1 N. France and back, the former gets 25+ hours in the week whilst the latter gets 4 so I totally understand the point you make, it does seem unfair. I don’t understand the planning / distributing of flights. there seems to be no obvious control over the equality and theres no reversal of schedules so that you can have a v.quiet week followed by a decent week of flying. If you knew that would happen it would make budgeting a bit easier. Currently have to budget for ultra low hours and only spend on essentials, nice at christmas
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The Ryanair rostering system is designed to man all flights at the lowest possible cost to the company. This is why there seems to be no logical distribution behind your roster.
Another reason why UK based pilots are not flying as much is because the market in the UK is currently saturated. Ryanair has a disproportionate amount of bases in the UK compared to other countries. There is too much passenger overlap.
To give an example. At my base in central Europe we have a passenger overlap range of roughly 350km total travel distance. This means that through airport surveys Ryanair has established that the majority of its' passengers at my base live within that distance of the airport. This equates to roughly 200 miles. Outside that radius, a passenger is more likely to choose another Ryanair base over mine as the departure point of his travels. I have these figures from by base captain, so they should be more or less accurate.
When you transmute those figures to the UK you'll see where the problem lies. All the major UK bases (Stansted, Luton, Bristol, Birmingham, East-Midlands, Leeds) are positioned on average less than 150 miles from each other.
In the UK, you have 6 bases in the passenger overlap radius equal to that of just 1 central European base. Add to that the fact that Stansted has a much larger passenger attraction rate because of the larger spectrum in available destinations. In short, the competition for passengers between UK bases in much larger than the competition for passengers in central Europe.
In my base, you'll get 1 standby per week normally. Can't speak for FO's, but captains keep averaging around 75 up to 90 hours per 28 days. From FO's I hear variable numbers, but not as low as I've read here. I would say average around 55 per month for the youngsters.
I feel for the guys flying 40 hours or less. I hope my post gives some insight in the reasons behind it.
Another reason why UK based pilots are not flying as much is because the market in the UK is currently saturated. Ryanair has a disproportionate amount of bases in the UK compared to other countries. There is too much passenger overlap.
To give an example. At my base in central Europe we have a passenger overlap range of roughly 350km total travel distance. This means that through airport surveys Ryanair has established that the majority of its' passengers at my base live within that distance of the airport. This equates to roughly 200 miles. Outside that radius, a passenger is more likely to choose another Ryanair base over mine as the departure point of his travels. I have these figures from by base captain, so they should be more or less accurate.
When you transmute those figures to the UK you'll see where the problem lies. All the major UK bases (Stansted, Luton, Bristol, Birmingham, East-Midlands, Leeds) are positioned on average less than 150 miles from each other.
In the UK, you have 6 bases in the passenger overlap radius equal to that of just 1 central European base. Add to that the fact that Stansted has a much larger passenger attraction rate because of the larger spectrum in available destinations. In short, the competition for passengers between UK bases in much larger than the competition for passengers in central Europe.
In my base, you'll get 1 standby per week normally. Can't speak for FO's, but captains keep averaging around 75 up to 90 hours per 28 days. From FO's I hear variable numbers, but not as low as I've read here. I would say average around 55 per month for the youngsters.
I feel for the guys flying 40 hours or less. I hope my post gives some insight in the reasons behind it.
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Again, I agree that it is a bit frustrating that we are having 100 hour months during the summer and 30 in the winter and sometimes it feels like everyone else gets to fly more. However, I compared hours with a colleague that was complaining he got less than everyone else. As it turned out it only differed 10-20 hours between us when we factored in the fact that he had had his month off and mine was coming up.
Also, if you insist on having your month off and ad hoc days during summer when the production is higher, I don´t think you can expect to get the same amount of hours over the year as if you take a hike in January.
Take your 600 or so hours and divide by 12 (yes 12), multiply with your hourly rate and any currency conversion and you will get your average per month. Any more money that shows up in your account around the 12th should be set aside to cover for the month without any pay and the months with reduced pay. I agree with Kempus that if you never reach the expected average per month that would be a bit of a problem, but I don´t think anyone get´s less than 600/year. You cannot expect to get 750-800 anymore, at least not in a training base, perhaps in a place like KUN or so...
Also, if you insist on having your month off and ad hoc days during summer when the production is higher, I don´t think you can expect to get the same amount of hours over the year as if you take a hike in January.
Take your 600 or so hours and divide by 12 (yes 12), multiply with your hourly rate and any currency conversion and you will get your average per month. Any more money that shows up in your account around the 12th should be set aside to cover for the month without any pay and the months with reduced pay. I agree with Kempus that if you never reach the expected average per month that would be a bit of a problem, but I don´t think anyone get´s less than 600/year. You cannot expect to get 750-800 anymore, at least not in a training base, perhaps in a place like KUN or so...
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Take your 600 or so hours and divide by 12 (yes 12)
Anyone in the UK looking for hours, get you're hands on one of these "company IDs" and you can go to BCN and the likes for some extra hours!
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Quote - Lord Spandex Masher, your a CUN*! your the kind of CUN* that believes he was born to fly, I'll bet you believe you could teach birds to fly, -Unquote
Wow, that's a really useful contribution to the debate
Wow, that's a really useful contribution to the debate
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Quote - Lord Spandex Masher, your a CUN*! your the kind of CUN* that believes he was born to fly, I'll bet you believe you could teach birds to fly, -Unquote
Perhaps Get_a_Grip if you asked Lord Spandex Masher nicely he could also teach you some grammar while he's at it, with "his" CUN*
My first post as a member of the grammar police....but really if you're going to stoop to such crass statements on here and bring down the tone of the discussion, then at the very least get it right.
Get_a_Grip: repeat after me....
You're a CUN*
He's a CUN*
I'm a CUN*
We're all CUN*s
Your mums......enough said?
Back to topic....
Kempus: are guys at the same base as you on vastly different hours? Are they on the same contract as you? And have you asked about why there's a discrepancy?
Perhaps Get_a_Grip if you asked Lord Spandex Masher nicely he could also teach you some grammar while he's at it, with "his" CUN*
My first post as a member of the grammar police....but really if you're going to stoop to such crass statements on here and bring down the tone of the discussion, then at the very least get it right.
Get_a_Grip: repeat after me....
You're a CUN*
He's a CUN*
I'm a CUN*
We're all CUN*s
Your mums......enough said?
Back to topic....
Kempus: are guys at the same base as you on vastly different hours? Are they on the same contract as you? And have you asked about why there's a discrepancy?
Isn't it all quite fascinating?
Not long ago there was a huge hue and cry going on pprune that Ryanair were fiddliing the books so that their pilots were having to fly more than 900 hours in a calendar year, but by some Irish fiddle (excuse pun) "everything got put right by magic on April 1st".
Suddenly, some of them are flying less than the poor chaps in BA!
I have seen and done all of this before.
For example, when I worked in the US of A in the 1980s for a Part 121 operator, I got paid by the hour and had a 50-hour guaranteed month. Anything above that was good news. In fact, a 100 hour month was wonderful. (A 120 hour month was possible under FAA regulations).
However, being a practical soul, I already figured that I was not likely to do 100 hours per month every month of the year, so I did some sensible accountancy and put some of the good months towards what were likely to be the bad months.
Not only that; the company that I worked for in the US of A, did not have a pension scheme or anything else for that matter, so I put a proportion of what I earned in the US of A into a UK pension fund and it has rewarded me handsomly.
It is called the principle of the 6 Ps.
"Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance".
Not long ago there was a huge hue and cry going on pprune that Ryanair were fiddliing the books so that their pilots were having to fly more than 900 hours in a calendar year, but by some Irish fiddle (excuse pun) "everything got put right by magic on April 1st".
Suddenly, some of them are flying less than the poor chaps in BA!
I have seen and done all of this before.
For example, when I worked in the US of A in the 1980s for a Part 121 operator, I got paid by the hour and had a 50-hour guaranteed month. Anything above that was good news. In fact, a 100 hour month was wonderful. (A 120 hour month was possible under FAA regulations).
However, being a practical soul, I already figured that I was not likely to do 100 hours per month every month of the year, so I did some sensible accountancy and put some of the good months towards what were likely to be the bad months.
Not only that; the company that I worked for in the US of A, did not have a pension scheme or anything else for that matter, so I put a proportion of what I earned in the US of A into a UK pension fund and it has rewarded me handsomly.
It is called the principle of the 6 Ps.
"Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance".
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I wonder if the good people from HMRC are reading this! They must be pissing themselves if they are with the easy pickings coming up!
"Tell me mr self employed ryr pilot why didn't you earn any money last month"
"Coz I was sitting around on unpaid standby somewhere in europe"
"why didn't you just come home and fly for someone else then, or do another job"
"Coz I can't, my contract says I can't"
"Aaaah, I see, now let me have a look, 4 years at 80 euros per hour times 700 hours a year, at Paye rates, including the employers national insurance of course, plus 4 years of late fines, plus interest....Thats quite a tidy sum you owe her majesty sir. Cheque by the end of the week will be fine, if not, you know where the local court is don't you sir"
Whilst I pity anyone in your boat, reap what you sew is an apt description, and surely anyone who went into the glorious cadet 'pay for everything' scheme must have seen this as a natural conclusion?
"Tell me mr self employed ryr pilot why didn't you earn any money last month"
"Coz I was sitting around on unpaid standby somewhere in europe"
"why didn't you just come home and fly for someone else then, or do another job"
"Coz I can't, my contract says I can't"
"Aaaah, I see, now let me have a look, 4 years at 80 euros per hour times 700 hours a year, at Paye rates, including the employers national insurance of course, plus 4 years of late fines, plus interest....Thats quite a tidy sum you owe her majesty sir. Cheque by the end of the week will be fine, if not, you know where the local court is don't you sir"
Whilst I pity anyone in your boat, reap what you sew is an apt description, and surely anyone who went into the glorious cadet 'pay for everything' scheme must have seen this as a natural conclusion?
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Mugabellew was on the flightdeck of my flight to STN - and we asked him about the hours issue. He said that he was driving the "optimiser" software to get all pilots - Ryanair and contract - within 5% of each other - when annual leave was factored per month.
I did not understand how he could do this but he said that he had a statistician working weekly producing reports by base by rank and employer. Each base was then manually adjusted on the roster and inspected to ensure that all pilots would converge. I asked how could this work with more than 2500 pilots.
He booted up his laptop (non SOP on the flightdeck I know) and showed both of us the live data. Uncanny the lowest and highest in STN were within 6%. He said to drive this on that in some bases it means that some will have markedly more flying than others to bring them into the statistical band.
He referred me to a book called "fooled by randomness" and claimed that airline flights operations and rostering were the ultimate wonder of game theory. As he tried to explain a "polar aerograph" to me displaying hours by base - I pretended to have an RT call to make.
I did not understand how he could do this but he said that he had a statistician working weekly producing reports by base by rank and employer. Each base was then manually adjusted on the roster and inspected to ensure that all pilots would converge. I asked how could this work with more than 2500 pilots.
He booted up his laptop (non SOP on the flightdeck I know) and showed both of us the live data. Uncanny the lowest and highest in STN were within 6%. He said to drive this on that in some bases it means that some will have markedly more flying than others to bring them into the statistical band.
He referred me to a book called "fooled by randomness" and claimed that airline flights operations and rostering were the ultimate wonder of game theory. As he tried to explain a "polar aerograph" to me displaying hours by base - I pretended to have an RT call to make.
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757 Driver - I'm not really sure how HMRC would enforce something like that. I work as a contractor because Brookfield/RYR let me do so and provide no other way of working for them. I pay an accountant and he sees to it that I remain within the law and pay the tax (Corporation, Income, Capital Gains and VAT) I owe. I do not have an option to go onto PAYE.
If, by HMRC rules, I should be an employee (which is debatable), then that would be a matter for HMRC to take up with Brookfield, not me, surely? I've already paid the tax under the system of work that I find myself in.
If, by HMRC rules, I should be an employee (which is debatable), then that would be a matter for HMRC to take up with Brookfield, not me, surely? I've already paid the tax under the system of work that I find myself in.
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Funny, I left FR last spring wanting to get as many hours per schedule as possible. Now each time it comes i hope for as little flying as possible. Now i average about 450 hours a year and loving it. Leave that "airline" and get a life/real job!
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Kempus
Divide by 12! lol
I have a car, 2 in fact, loan repayment for type rating, own MY own house (by myself), Commute to Spain, pay €500 euro a month here, have a contract mobile, a previous loan also for house upgrades, car insurance road tax, and a fairly good lifestyle, go out to dinner most nights at home and a beer when I want and take the odd couple of days away places to romance the ladies, and still don't sit and moan on here about the money,
DIVIDE by 12, I did 85 hours last month, looking at 55 this month, guess what, not spending all last months money this month, keeping some in the bank to top up next month, the 90+ hours in summer with out of base pay were great, cookies in the cupboard now, yes the hours are not averaged out, theres a lot of pilots and recon its just too much extra work for rostering to bother even trying, would just cost more man hours to try and do it.
I don't believe what a previous poster said about its worked for the least possible cost in the flight deck, I have often flown as a higher rate f/o while new cheap guys are on standby.
Anyway, there is no guarantee of hours, I knew that starting, you knew that too! you cant moan after, no one made any promise, you just hoped to fly 900 hours a year, I on the other hand do not want too, 700-750 a year would suit me fine.
Divide by 12! lol
I have a car, 2 in fact, loan repayment for type rating, own MY own house (by myself), Commute to Spain, pay €500 euro a month here, have a contract mobile, a previous loan also for house upgrades, car insurance road tax, and a fairly good lifestyle, go out to dinner most nights at home and a beer when I want and take the odd couple of days away places to romance the ladies, and still don't sit and moan on here about the money,
DIVIDE by 12, I did 85 hours last month, looking at 55 this month, guess what, not spending all last months money this month, keeping some in the bank to top up next month, the 90+ hours in summer with out of base pay were great, cookies in the cupboard now, yes the hours are not averaged out, theres a lot of pilots and recon its just too much extra work for rostering to bother even trying, would just cost more man hours to try and do it.
I don't believe what a previous poster said about its worked for the least possible cost in the flight deck, I have often flown as a higher rate f/o while new cheap guys are on standby.
Anyway, there is no guarantee of hours, I knew that starting, you knew that too! you cant moan after, no one made any promise, you just hoped to fly 900 hours a year, I on the other hand do not want too, 700-750 a year would suit me fine.
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757 Driver
I did the latest HMRC employment status indicator and answered the questions as though a Brookfield pilot. This was the result:
Employment Status Indicator Result
Based on the information you have provided, the worker is self-employed.
The result is based on the following grounds:
Version: 1.3.0.2
The worker is self-employed. [Why ?]
There is a low indication of substitution. [Why ?]
There is a high indication of financial risk. [Why ?]
Printer-friendly version
Paye therefore is not applicable.
If you want to try it yourself just google HMRC self employment rules.
I did the latest HMRC employment status indicator and answered the questions as though a Brookfield pilot. This was the result:
Employment Status Indicator Result
Based on the information you have provided, the worker is self-employed.
The result is based on the following grounds:
Version: 1.3.0.2
The worker is self-employed. [Why ?]
There is a low indication of substitution. [Why ?]
There is a high indication of financial risk. [Why ?]
Printer-friendly version
Paye therefore is not applicable.
If you want to try it yourself just google HMRC self employment rules.
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As much as it will annoy a lot of us who suspect the chips are stacked against us individually, I suspect if we reconvene on April 1st (no joke intended), and compare hours for the RYR rostering year, I bet we will all fall into a pretty tight band.
Wally.
PS. I flew 32 hours last November, and 97 this November - go figure!
Wally.
PS. I flew 32 hours last November, and 97 this November - go figure!
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Sellect,
There appears to be no way to give an accurate answer to your question, if I were able to predict hours in bases I would bottle and sell it!!
I guess the common sense view is to look at what happens at the base and make an intelligent guess. If the base has a reduction of a/c over the winter you will likely find it overcrewed and hence a lot of standbys. If you are in the UK, the bases seems to have a slightly more seasonally adjusted utilisation of aircraft and this will affect hours.
A year ago F/O's seem content to say they got around 750hrs/yr. Someone above said 600-650hrs. My experience (me and friends around the network) would probably split the difference and say you can pretty much guarantee 700hrs from April 1st-March 31st each year, although the bad months can be really bad (see Nick14's comment).
Wally.
There appears to be no way to give an accurate answer to your question, if I were able to predict hours in bases I would bottle and sell it!!
I guess the common sense view is to look at what happens at the base and make an intelligent guess. If the base has a reduction of a/c over the winter you will likely find it overcrewed and hence a lot of standbys. If you are in the UK, the bases seems to have a slightly more seasonally adjusted utilisation of aircraft and this will affect hours.
A year ago F/O's seem content to say they got around 750hrs/yr. Someone above said 600-650hrs. My experience (me and friends around the network) would probably split the difference and say you can pretty much guarantee 700hrs from April 1st-March 31st each year, although the bad months can be really bad (see Nick14's comment).
Wally.