Ryanair Standbys
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: on a beach
Age: 68
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong.
New hire FO's end up 100k € in debt after paying for TR (line training too?).
They pay for the hotel during training and uniform. Then, they're based in
the ends of Europe on stand by all the time. No fly no money. No crew meals. Water?
I think you guys need to see a psychiatrist, or you have no respect for yourselves.
You guys are hurting yourselves now and in the long run, and the profession, too.
Good luck.
New hire FO's end up 100k € in debt after paying for TR (line training too?).
They pay for the hotel during training and uniform. Then, they're based in
the ends of Europe on stand by all the time. No fly no money. No crew meals. Water?
I think you guys need to see a psychiatrist, or you have no respect for yourselves.
You guys are hurting yourselves now and in the long run, and the profession, too.
Good luck.
beachbumflyer something you didn't quite get right. Type rating is 30k, and while expensive, if people are in 100k debt 70k (unless they did integrated and were 100k debt prior to paying for type) odd is due to FATPL and people remain in this debt even if they get BA, EJ, Flybe etc etc.....
To get into BA or EJ as a cadet you need to go via an integrated school or CTC (which may now be integrated). These FATPL courses are in the region of 100k alone when all said and done, and if you get a free (bonded) type rating, money spent by the cadet for FATPL with a type is 100k either way!
Forget about a few hundred bucks for uniform or you're own water now, the cost from zero to bum in right seat whether you pay for type rating or not is probably the same!
Not the best company in the world, who's arguing that, but can't argue it's not a bad start! Especially for me as I started in 2008 - to get 2000 on type during recession wasn't too shabby I thought!
To get into BA or EJ as a cadet you need to go via an integrated school or CTC (which may now be integrated). These FATPL courses are in the region of 100k alone when all said and done, and if you get a free (bonded) type rating, money spent by the cadet for FATPL with a type is 100k either way!
Forget about a few hundred bucks for uniform or you're own water now, the cost from zero to bum in right seat whether you pay for type rating or not is probably the same!
Not the best company in the world, who's arguing that, but can't argue it's not a bad start! Especially for me as I started in 2008 - to get 2000 on type during recession wasn't too shabby I thought!
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: south east UK
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The cost to the right hand seat is most definately NOT the same. I did my training from start to MEIR for about £20k-£25k (which was all my own money, not debt - as I saved up for many years), whilst still in my old career and I didn't walk away from that career until I had a job offer. (a job, not some micky mouse zero hour contract). Yes I had to pay for my rating, as unfortunately most do these days but that was another £15k and it was based on a real job with a real salary, which I had a contract for, in writing.
People need to get a bit of self respect and actually plan ahead. Someone in a previous post mentioned 'finding yourself 100k in debt'. Unbelievable, nobody FINDS THEMSELVES 100k in debt. This isn't like someone who lost a job in a recession due to no fault of their own. This is people who made a concious decision to do all the training without thinking through the consequences. If you can't afford to service the debt then you shouldn't have taken it on!
I agree that then having had a dawning reallisation (which people should have had BEFORE committing to all the debt) then maybe the ryanair thing looks better than nothing - however I still can't see that. A further 30k of debt for what? certainly this brookfield contract thing isn't a job, theres no guaranteed income, and even more cost as most people (juding by this thread) are incurring living costs way way away from home.
Unlike some I don't take solace in others misfortune, but really, if you are up to ears in debt and not earning anything whilst paying for accomodation in the butt end of europe and want to blame someone for the situation, then look in a mirror. You knew what you were signing when you paid the money.
I suspect at some point the irish government will grow some plums (or be given some by its new european paymasters) and put a stop to all this anyway. Certainly in the UK IR35 would kill all this, and I'm pretty sure that brookfield would be borderline at best under UK employment and contract law. Minimum wage would also be a consideration in the UK too.
People need to get a bit of self respect and actually plan ahead. Someone in a previous post mentioned 'finding yourself 100k in debt'. Unbelievable, nobody FINDS THEMSELVES 100k in debt. This isn't like someone who lost a job in a recession due to no fault of their own. This is people who made a concious decision to do all the training without thinking through the consequences. If you can't afford to service the debt then you shouldn't have taken it on!
I agree that then having had a dawning reallisation (which people should have had BEFORE committing to all the debt) then maybe the ryanair thing looks better than nothing - however I still can't see that. A further 30k of debt for what? certainly this brookfield contract thing isn't a job, theres no guaranteed income, and even more cost as most people (juding by this thread) are incurring living costs way way away from home.
Unlike some I don't take solace in others misfortune, but really, if you are up to ears in debt and not earning anything whilst paying for accomodation in the butt end of europe and want to blame someone for the situation, then look in a mirror. You knew what you were signing when you paid the money.
I suspect at some point the irish government will grow some plums (or be given some by its new european paymasters) and put a stop to all this anyway. Certainly in the UK IR35 would kill all this, and I'm pretty sure that brookfield would be borderline at best under UK employment and contract law. Minimum wage would also be a consideration in the UK too.
757 you are quite correct in most of what you say, I certainly don't deny a lot of what you said.
What isn't correct mind, is the idea that every FO in RYR alone is in 100k debt.
Like you I worked full time at the CAA as is happens studying for my licences etc and finished with a FATPL with MCC owing 8k. Bearing in mind my situation where I had a good steady job anyway, and the fact I'd had to go modular to be suit my needs, of course the likes of BA and any other airline that paid and/or bonded me wouldn't have been interested as I'd not been down the integrated or CTC route.
Ryanair was my first interview, and by paying £25k for my type, I owed £33k ish with a bum on the right seat.
757 - My point on my previous post is accurate though, for people studying full time taking out a loan for full training etc.
For approx 100k you can:
Go modular and pay for a type rating (and have change for sure)
Go integrated and get lucky enough to not pay for one
Worst case- go integrated and pay for one - which lots have done.
I think perhaps we're arguing the same point, if you chose your school (s) wisely going modular and end up paying for a type, it's actually cheaper then having gone integrated in the hope you end up with BA etc...Definitely was for me no question.
Back to my initial statement directed at beachbum, not everyone in RYR is 100k in debt, and not everyone's mummy or daddy paid for their shinny jet rating!
What isn't correct mind, is the idea that every FO in RYR alone is in 100k debt.
Like you I worked full time at the CAA as is happens studying for my licences etc and finished with a FATPL with MCC owing 8k. Bearing in mind my situation where I had a good steady job anyway, and the fact I'd had to go modular to be suit my needs, of course the likes of BA and any other airline that paid and/or bonded me wouldn't have been interested as I'd not been down the integrated or CTC route.
Ryanair was my first interview, and by paying £25k for my type, I owed £33k ish with a bum on the right seat.
757 - My point on my previous post is accurate though, for people studying full time taking out a loan for full training etc.
For approx 100k you can:
Go modular and pay for a type rating (and have change for sure)
Go integrated and get lucky enough to not pay for one
Worst case- go integrated and pay for one - which lots have done.
I think perhaps we're arguing the same point, if you chose your school (s) wisely going modular and end up paying for a type, it's actually cheaper then having gone integrated in the hope you end up with BA etc...Definitely was for me no question.
Back to my initial statement directed at beachbum, not everyone in RYR is 100k in debt, and not everyone's mummy or daddy paid for their shinny jet rating!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be fair, I think December has been particularly bad for standbys as not many people have annual leave or their month off now. I don't know any FOs in my base with annual leave or their month off in December. However in January, February and March plenty of us guys have time off. For some reason they seem terrified of handing out leave around Christmas and New Year- I don't know why, it's not like people are going to skive off leaving not enough crew to operate. Perhaps it's just the 19th century "Scrooge" mentality they have in Dublin towards their staff?
Myself, I have all of my annual leave and my BRK month off in Jan-March. This is a little worrying as I've not flown much this month. However I knew this was probably going to happen as it has for the last 3 years, so it's my own stupid fault for not saving up over the summer when I blew all my money on women, fast cars and shoes. Ah well, I guess it will only be the one skiing holiday for me this winter, but I've only myself to blame for that!
Myself, I have all of my annual leave and my BRK month off in Jan-March. This is a little worrying as I've not flown much this month. However I knew this was probably going to happen as it has for the last 3 years, so it's my own stupid fault for not saving up over the summer when I blew all my money on women, fast cars and shoes. Ah well, I guess it will only be the one skiing holiday for me this winter, but I've only myself to blame for that!
I just ploughed through the last 10 pages of this 'argument', which is no mean feat with my appalling internet connection. Some of it was interesting and enlightening; the usual 'only dumb guys pay for type ratings' debate less so.
I remember someone suggesting that the Ryanair rostering system is designed to man all flights at the lowest possible cost to the company. Is that right? Who told you that? Everyone in my base, BC included, reckons the current system is costing FR a small fortune because so many people are arriving from out of base while based pilots sit idly on standby.
As for my personal experience of working for FR, it's a mixed bag of good and bad. Overall, I'm happy to be employed doing the job I should have started in my twenties, rather than my thirties. But let nobody think that you earn a good living at FR. Pay and conditions are terrible. I don't mind buying my lunch or my uniform, that's petty cash. What annoys me is lack of pension etc.
As for hours, I appreciate there's a good variation between FOs in terms of hours, but my situation is 'okay'. I use the word carefully. I should just about scrape 700 logged hours for a 12 month calendar year. I have already had a winter month 'off BRK' and I've got more time off to contend with before the winter is over. I expect the spring and summer to bring some good news, but last year none of the 'bumper' months brought in over 75 hours, so I shall temper my optimism. with a good dose of reality. In my experience, even a good 'rostered' month tends to degenerate into 2 standbys a week once each new week is finalised.
I decided to join FR despite my misgivings over the management style because of the tales of 900 hours, advice from many pilots at other Airlines and my exhaustion of other options. The 25% shortfall of pay isn't the end of the world in a recession - I'd rather be employed - but it does severely dent my desire to build a career at a company in which the management treat the staff with utter contempt.
Low(er) pay, non-existent benefits, idiotic and inconsiderate rostering and basing decision gives me more stress than the joy of the day to day job can ever hope to counter. The sad thing is that the issues that upset me about FR could be remedied at no expense to the company, but it chooses to operate an unhappy ship out of sheer spite. Meanwhile the company sits on more money than it can hope to spend. Tragic.
Just my humble opinion.
MH152
Edited to apologise for the rant.
I remember someone suggesting that the Ryanair rostering system is designed to man all flights at the lowest possible cost to the company. Is that right? Who told you that? Everyone in my base, BC included, reckons the current system is costing FR a small fortune because so many people are arriving from out of base while based pilots sit idly on standby.
As for my personal experience of working for FR, it's a mixed bag of good and bad. Overall, I'm happy to be employed doing the job I should have started in my twenties, rather than my thirties. But let nobody think that you earn a good living at FR. Pay and conditions are terrible. I don't mind buying my lunch or my uniform, that's petty cash. What annoys me is lack of pension etc.
As for hours, I appreciate there's a good variation between FOs in terms of hours, but my situation is 'okay'. I use the word carefully. I should just about scrape 700 logged hours for a 12 month calendar year. I have already had a winter month 'off BRK' and I've got more time off to contend with before the winter is over. I expect the spring and summer to bring some good news, but last year none of the 'bumper' months brought in over 75 hours, so I shall temper my optimism. with a good dose of reality. In my experience, even a good 'rostered' month tends to degenerate into 2 standbys a week once each new week is finalised.
I decided to join FR despite my misgivings over the management style because of the tales of 900 hours, advice from many pilots at other Airlines and my exhaustion of other options. The 25% shortfall of pay isn't the end of the world in a recession - I'd rather be employed - but it does severely dent my desire to build a career at a company in which the management treat the staff with utter contempt.
Low(er) pay, non-existent benefits, idiotic and inconsiderate rostering and basing decision gives me more stress than the joy of the day to day job can ever hope to counter. The sad thing is that the issues that upset me about FR could be remedied at no expense to the company, but it chooses to operate an unhappy ship out of sheer spite. Meanwhile the company sits on more money than it can hope to spend. Tragic.
Just my humble opinion.
MH152
Edited to apologise for the rant.
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 3rd Jan 2011 at 10:10.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: World
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rostering works through mysterious ways. I have it from PB himself that rostering attempts to keep all pilots within 5% of each other. One of the reasons why it sometimes seems like base pilots are on constant standby and out of base pilots come and take hours away from the based folks.
Haven't done less than 820 hours either as FO or Captain at a central EU base. Explain that?
Again. Ryanair is a company for the young folk. Get in, do a command if you can or want and get out by the time you're 25. There's 40 years of your career left to spend with a major airline if you can get it.
Plus, the RYR experience does count for something. Haven't seen any of the big airlines do a winter operations with non-precisions into fields like Carcasonne, Bergerac, Larochelle, Gothenburg etc...
Get in as a cadet. Get your hours. Get out.
if you don't fall into that category, Ryanair is not a good option for you.
Haven't done less than 820 hours either as FO or Captain at a central EU base. Explain that?
Again. Ryanair is a company for the young folk. Get in, do a command if you can or want and get out by the time you're 25. There's 40 years of your career left to spend with a major airline if you can get it.
Plus, the RYR experience does count for something. Haven't seen any of the big airlines do a winter operations with non-precisions into fields like Carcasonne, Bergerac, Larochelle, Gothenburg etc...
Get in as a cadet. Get your hours. Get out.
if you don't fall into that category, Ryanair is not a good option for you.
