Virgin recruiting soon...
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I'd be interested to hear how cadets and experienced DEPs will be placed on the seniority list. If you have 4-5000 hours guys with heavy jet time that joined Virgin the day after one of the cadets, is the cadet going to get a LHS move before the experienced pilot? Prioritising date of joining over that much experience would be madness!
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£26k flying 825 hours instead of the 750 hours. Straight onto LH widebody.
Kid-ets should consider themselves very very lucky.
However, I said it 4 pages ago - Watch out for your T&C's.
There is now a divide in the workforce (hours & entry pay) management/bean counters will start to turn the screws!
Kid-ets should consider themselves very very lucky.
However, I said it 4 pages ago - Watch out for your T&C's.
There is now a divide in the workforce (hours & entry pay) management/bean counters will start to turn the screws!
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The question is : will one of these guys find himself flying over the ITZ, get an unreliable airspeed through a frozen pitot and decide to pull up to an attitude of 18 degrees nose up while saying "I don't know what is happening". If they do (lets hope they don't) whose fault is it?
http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...ould-read.html
http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...ould-read.html
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Hopefully said FO might do the same while flying by himself in a C172 scaring himself witless in the process and thereby avoiding a repeat with 300 people behind. How is a Virgin FO with an MPL followed by 2 landings per month ever going to get any hands on experience. He might become a brilliant "systems manager" but not a pilot and being a pilot, like it or not, is still an essential part of our job.
Champagne anyone...?
You could ask that question of every MPL cadet or 200hr CPL/IR pilot currently flogging around Europe in one RYRs 738s or EZYs 319s. I can think of a few "stall" related incidents (Air France 447, Turkish at AMS, Thomson at Bournemouth, Asiana at SFO) - all of them involved a loss of speed & system awareness/SA and none of them involved "cadets". In fact, pretty much everyone involved had thousands of hours. Draw from that what you will.
It is true the "cadets" will have fewer actual flying hours than everyone else when they hit the line but you manage this through training and supervision - especially on an operation where actual hands-on is, on the whole, limited to final stages of flight. It's not insurmountable; recruit good people and train them well.
It is true the "cadets" will have fewer actual flying hours than everyone else when they hit the line but you manage this through training and supervision - especially on an operation where actual hands-on is, on the whole, limited to final stages of flight. It's not insurmountable; recruit good people and train them well.
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Originally posted by thowmas
. . . if they thought there was any risk or doubt about the cadets flying LH then this program would simply not be running. . .
. . . if they thought there was any risk or doubt about the cadets flying LH then this program would simply not be running. . .
To be honest they know what they're doing . . .
Sure, they're not going to be as experienced as someone with 2000hrs, but then again neither are the hundreds of other cadets flying SH on most airlines around Europe nowadays anyway.
has been going on for a while in SH with no problems is not evidence that it's a good idea. Sometimes problems take a very long time to lead to a smoking hole. In fact, if the rest of the air transport system is any good, it should take a long time. Aerospace has had plenty of examples of "good ideas" not looking quite so clever many years later.No doubt I'll be flying with this lot in a few years and will just have to make the best of it. In that respect it's no different to many other questionable aspects of the job. My opinion is irrelevant, I just fly the line as well as I can.
I'm sure we'll have plenty of applicants, especially in the current jobs market. All I'd say is be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't wish a 40+ year career of pure LH on my worst enemy, and that's in the current industry. To be blunt, I'm not convinced that the type of person who signs up for that life plan is the kind of person who should actually be a pilot. Have a good think about what's coming next. Four plus decades is a long time.
But I do agree with StopStart. It's not the end of the world.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 3rd Nov 2014 at 00:25.
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Am I right in thinking, as used to be the case with MPL, that the licence is tied to the airline that you're doing the training with.
So, in a purely hypothetical situation, what happens to the chosen 10 if a) virgin go belly up (lets really hope not) or b) Delta buy out the VS stake?
I'd give an arm to fly.. I'm no youngster (35) and have seen enough of the world and the industry to want to get involved, but the sheer scale of that sort of investment with no guarantee of seeing it back would terrify me - even without a 2 year old and a mortgage, especially if your licence is rendered useless because you no longer have a partner airline..
(it might have all changed since I was involved with it, so if thats the case.. disregard!)
So, in a purely hypothetical situation, what happens to the chosen 10 if a) virgin go belly up (lets really hope not) or b) Delta buy out the VS stake?
I'd give an arm to fly.. I'm no youngster (35) and have seen enough of the world and the industry to want to get involved, but the sheer scale of that sort of investment with no guarantee of seeing it back would terrify me - even without a 2 year old and a mortgage, especially if your licence is rendered useless because you no longer have a partner airline..
(it might have all changed since I was involved with it, so if thats the case.. disregard!)
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The MPL is already transferrable, several Flybe q400 guys have gone on to fly other Aircraft with other airlines..... In which case the MPL is a joke already.
The goal posts have moved and will continue to move, much to the determent of all others with good experience waiting for the chance to move on
The goal posts have moved and will continue to move, much to the determent of all others with good experience waiting for the chance to move on
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I'm no youngster (35) and have seen enough of the world and the industry to want to get involved
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Smokie
Whilst I'm no fan of the MPL scheme, I don't believe it has become a joke because some guys have been able to transfer types/companies.
It's purpose isn't to hold you hostage to one type/AOC; it is merely a change in training philosophy, one that encompasses more multi-crew operations rather than light aircraft flying, as it's deemed more relevant.
Again, I'm not it's biggest fan, but I am under no illusion - it is the future, and I actually agree with it, in concept.
I fly a B777 after flying nothing larger than small twins and turboprops. I can assure you that such GA flying, whilst fun and a good experience, is sod all use when it comes to handling a 350 ton jet, ETOPS, HF, polar ops, etc.
It's purpose isn't to hold you hostage to one type/AOC; it is merely a change in training philosophy, one that encompasses more multi-crew operations rather than light aircraft flying, as it's deemed more relevant.
Again, I'm not it's biggest fan, but I am under no illusion - it is the future, and I actually agree with it, in concept.
I fly a B777 after flying nothing larger than small twins and turboprops. I can assure you that such GA flying, whilst fun and a good experience, is sod all use when it comes to handling a 350 ton jet, ETOPS, HF, polar ops, etc.
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sigh.
To: No-one in particular..
Sure it's probably the wrong place, and it's probably been answered somewhere in the depths of prune, but there seems to be a large number of crews that are so disillusioned with their careers/lives that they go out of their way to stop people getting into the aviation industry and paint it in the worst possible light.
Most of the posts I read are so dead-set against newbies getting into flying that, given 20-25 years, we'd have barely any pilots whatsoever!
From the outside I'm sure it looks rosier, it always does. But from the point of view of a desk pusher, with a go-nowhere job, many careers look rosy. Especially having spent formative years in the industry, and now, through redundancy, sadly away from it.
If it's that bad, how come so many of you are still doing it - I'm sure some of those skills you've learnt would be useful somewhere else. and on the plus side, it'd allow some of those people that you are always decrying about wanting to get into the industry to actually get the jobs they so dearly wish for.
It really is a question - I'm interested to learn why you're all so demotivated. I guess you could ask the same question to Nurses, Firemen, Teachers - another group of people who must know what the job is like, long hours, pension fund holes, shi**y management, goalpost moving etc, before they get into it and yet still find the requirement to moan about it constantly.
Sorry. it just frustrates me. I'm sure there must be a huge number of people who absolutely love their flying careers - it's just for some reason they don't post here. My old man used to love his job as an FE, albeit finished through retirement - mind you, he did quite often say it wasn't the industry it once was.. mind you - is any?
And for the record, I definitely don't agree with being charged £109k for a licence. lets go back to the old way of the airline paying for it and being bonded to them for 7-10 years whilst the bond is paid back on a reduced salary...... Surely a win-win situation - unless the airline goes bust, in which case it's just a win situation.
Sure it's probably the wrong place, and it's probably been answered somewhere in the depths of prune, but there seems to be a large number of crews that are so disillusioned with their careers/lives that they go out of their way to stop people getting into the aviation industry and paint it in the worst possible light.
Most of the posts I read are so dead-set against newbies getting into flying that, given 20-25 years, we'd have barely any pilots whatsoever!
From the outside I'm sure it looks rosier, it always does. But from the point of view of a desk pusher, with a go-nowhere job, many careers look rosy. Especially having spent formative years in the industry, and now, through redundancy, sadly away from it.
If it's that bad, how come so many of you are still doing it - I'm sure some of those skills you've learnt would be useful somewhere else. and on the plus side, it'd allow some of those people that you are always decrying about wanting to get into the industry to actually get the jobs they so dearly wish for.
It really is a question - I'm interested to learn why you're all so demotivated. I guess you could ask the same question to Nurses, Firemen, Teachers - another group of people who must know what the job is like, long hours, pension fund holes, shi**y management, goalpost moving etc, before they get into it and yet still find the requirement to moan about it constantly.
Sorry. it just frustrates me. I'm sure there must be a huge number of people who absolutely love their flying careers - it's just for some reason they don't post here. My old man used to love his job as an FE, albeit finished through retirement - mind you, he did quite often say it wasn't the industry it once was.. mind you - is any?
And for the record, I definitely don't agree with being charged £109k for a licence. lets go back to the old way of the airline paying for it and being bonded to them for 7-10 years whilst the bond is paid back on a reduced salary...... Surely a win-win situation - unless the airline goes bust, in which case it's just a win situation.
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To: No-one in particular..
Sure it's probably the wrong place, and it's probably been answered somewhere in the depths of prune, but there seems to be a large number of crews that are so disillusioned with their careers/lives that they go out of their way to stop people getting into the aviation industry and paint it in the worst possible light.
Most of the posts I read are so dead-set against newbies getting into flying that, given 20-25 years, we'd have barely any pilots whatsoever!
From the outside I'm sure it looks rosier, it always does. But from the point of view of a desk pusher, with a go-nowhere job, many careers look rosy. Especially having spent formative years in the industry, and now, through redundancy, sadly away from it.
If it's that bad, how come so many of you are still doing it - I'm sure some of those skills you've learnt would be useful somewhere else. and on the plus side, it'd allow some of those people that you are always decrying about wanting to get into the industry to actually get the jobs they so dearly wish for.
It really is a question - I'm interested to learn why you're all so demotivated. I guess you could ask the same question to Nurses, Firemen, Teachers - another group of people who must know what the job is like, long hours, pension fund holes, shi**y management, goalpost moving etc, before they get into it and yet still find the requirement to moan about it constantly.
Sorry. it just frustrates me. I'm sure there must be a huge number of people who absolutely love their flying careers - it's just for some reason they don't post here. My old man used to love his job as an FE, albeit finished through retirement - mind you, he did quite often say it wasn't the industry it once was.. mind you - is any?
And for the record, I definitely don't agree with being charged £109k for a licence. lets go back to the old way of the airline paying for it and being bonded to them for 7-10 years whilst the bond is paid back on a reduced salary...... Surely a win-win situation - unless the airline goes bust, in which case it's just a win situation.
Sure it's probably the wrong place, and it's probably been answered somewhere in the depths of prune, but there seems to be a large number of crews that are so disillusioned with their careers/lives that they go out of their way to stop people getting into the aviation industry and paint it in the worst possible light.
Most of the posts I read are so dead-set against newbies getting into flying that, given 20-25 years, we'd have barely any pilots whatsoever!
From the outside I'm sure it looks rosier, it always does. But from the point of view of a desk pusher, with a go-nowhere job, many careers look rosy. Especially having spent formative years in the industry, and now, through redundancy, sadly away from it.
If it's that bad, how come so many of you are still doing it - I'm sure some of those skills you've learnt would be useful somewhere else. and on the plus side, it'd allow some of those people that you are always decrying about wanting to get into the industry to actually get the jobs they so dearly wish for.
It really is a question - I'm interested to learn why you're all so demotivated. I guess you could ask the same question to Nurses, Firemen, Teachers - another group of people who must know what the job is like, long hours, pension fund holes, shi**y management, goalpost moving etc, before they get into it and yet still find the requirement to moan about it constantly.
Sorry. it just frustrates me. I'm sure there must be a huge number of people who absolutely love their flying careers - it's just for some reason they don't post here. My old man used to love his job as an FE, albeit finished through retirement - mind you, he did quite often say it wasn't the industry it once was.. mind you - is any?
And for the record, I definitely don't agree with being charged £109k for a licence. lets go back to the old way of the airline paying for it and being bonded to them for 7-10 years whilst the bond is paid back on a reduced salary...... Surely a win-win situation - unless the airline goes bust, in which case it's just a win situation.
Part of being an airline pilot is not dwelling on the status quo but having foresight to envisage what is going to happen. It doesn't look to good for a long term option at the current rate. If it were free to get in that would be ok. In 10-15 Years time it'll be akin to earning 25-30k currently with temp contracts, zero extra benefits and a very bad lifestyle. For an investment of over a hundred thousand pounds that's a poor return for a future. .
As for being transferable skills wise. Airline experience at my age is as useful in another career as selling veggy dishes to cannibals, unless you want to get in CRM instructing, sim training. It's is an enjoyable job day to day, but it is changing. If you're gonna do it you're gonna do it. Good luck if you do. At least try the better options first like the BA FPP.
Last edited by Cliff Secord; 5th Nov 2014 at 17:34.
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Sorry for the ongoing thread drift.
It's not "fact" it's your opinion. Depending on exactly what is done in those light aeroplanes, I may or may not agree with you.
Firstly, as far as I know, that applies to SH not direct to LH. Secondly, a properly formulated safety assessment does not merely consist of an examination of accident statistics. Otherwise, I'd suggest that we can make lots of other money saving changes. How about removal of pop out RATs? When was one last relied on as sole electrical or hydraulic pressure source? Why stop with the RAT, just get rid of triplex hydraulic systems entirely. I'm sure we could get rid of at least one of the A320/330/340's pesky flight control computers. Delete an HF radio on LR types? We all know that if you lose comms half way accross the pond or going down through Africa you'll live. Why teach stall recoveries? A good transport pilot doesn't get into that position, and bad ones screw it up when they need it, so what's the point? Why carry final reserve fuel? It's almost never used and if it wasn't there people would just declare an emergency and land earlier. Obviously I could go on and on - and yes, I am being facetious. But I hope I've made my point. These are meant to be two pilot aircraft not one and a half.
Back to thread. Regardless of joining scheme or licence, think very carefully before signing up to a forty plus year career of pure long haul. By all means go LH later, if you so wish.
Originally posted by john_smith:
When are people going to accept the fact that flying around VFR in light aeroplanes has absolutely nothing to do with operating a transport category aircraft?
When are people going to accept the fact that flying around VFR in light aeroplanes has absolutely nothing to do with operating a transport category aircraft?
. . . but it is demonstrably not unsafe to put cadets into the right hand seat of an airliner. BA, LH, KLM have been doing it for decades; RYR and EZY for fifteen years or so. The safety argument against cadets is just not sustainable.
Back to thread. Regardless of joining scheme or licence, think very carefully before signing up to a forty plus year career of pure long haul. By all means go LH later, if you so wish.
Last edited by Case One; 6th Nov 2014 at 16:17. Reason: Spelling, I blame my iPad, but then I would.
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Can anybody in the know describe how/if fleet transfers work at Virgin? Obviously as an MPL your first few years are tied to the A330, but after that is there the opportunity to transfer? IIRC the A330s are leased and, with the 787 deliveries and expected order for more to replace the 747, could cadets end up stuck on a shrinking A330 fleet as VS gradually become 787 only?
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Manutd1999
Why is that reassuring to hear? What, a 777 or 787 over an airbus? I can't help but notice you're at the aspiratinal stage going from your posts. At your stage wouldn't you be glad to be given a turbine kite to fly given many are kicking around on pprune unemployed?
Why is that reassuring to hear? What, a 777 or 787 over an airbus? I can't help but notice you're at the aspiratinal stage going from your posts. At your stage wouldn't you be glad to be given a turbine kite to fly given many are kicking around on pprune unemployed?
Last edited by Wireless; 12th Nov 2014 at 09:16. Reason: Tone it down
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Why is that reassuring to hear? What, a 777 or 787 over an airbus? I can't help but notice you're at the aspiratinal stage going from your posts. At your stage wouldn't you be glad to be given a turbine kite to fly given many are kicking around on PPRuNe unemployed? Do yourself a favour and look back a few years and you'll see posts from low hours- qualified pilots happy when they found a turboprop job after years of graft. I'm sorry to be harsh but high-brow-without the experience posts like the above only piss off experienced people more and further drive home the current pilot equivalent of "immigration" in the uk which is cadet pilots.
Seeing as you mention it, yes I am at the "aspirational stage" - weren't we all once? One day after "years of graft" to fund training maybe I will get a turboprop job and I'm sure I'd be very happy to do so. In the meantime, the Virgin cadet scheme is a fantastic opportunity for me and all the thousands of other wannabe's. I wouldn't prefer a 787 over an Airbus as you suggest. I enquired to re-assure myself that Virgin look after their pilots, that the job I am applying to is secure in any fleet re-structuring. I'm not going to apologise for asking lots of questions, finding out as much about the profession as I can and seeking advice. 100 grand is a lot of money as it is without entering the whole process blind.