Virgin recruiting soon...
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The BBC report states that the new scheme will place the cadets on the a330.....
This may well go towards explaining why the people in the Airbus holdpool have been pushed back yet again to an estimated 2016! That'll be about 18months from now hmmmm about the time the newly announced course takes
This may well go towards explaining why the people in the Airbus holdpool have been pushed back yet again to an estimated 2016! That'll be about 18months from now hmmmm about the time the newly announced course takes
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Hmm, see this link: http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/vaa/...inAtlantic.pdf
There is no mention of hours/experience restrictions from this CTC PDF:
minimum requirements
� Be at least 17 years of age on date of application
(18 to commence training)
� Have the unrestricted right to live and work in the UK
� Hold a minimum of 5 GCSEs (or equivalent) Grade C or
above, including maths, science and English language
� Be able to demonstrate that you have successfully completed
secondary or high school education (or equivalent)
� Be fluent in English (verbal and written)
� Produce a current CRC (Criminal Record Check) basic disclosure
certificate before training can commence
� Minimum height 5’ 2” (157cm), maximum height 6’ 5” (196cm)
� Be able to obtain an EASA Class 1 medical without restrictions
There is no mention of hours/experience restrictions from this CTC PDF:
minimum requirements
� Be at least 17 years of age on date of application
(18 to commence training)
� Have the unrestricted right to live and work in the UK
� Hold a minimum of 5 GCSEs (or equivalent) Grade C or
above, including maths, science and English language
� Be able to demonstrate that you have successfully completed
secondary or high school education (or equivalent)
� Be fluent in English (verbal and written)
� Produce a current CRC (Criminal Record Check) basic disclosure
certificate before training can commence
� Minimum height 5’ 2” (157cm), maximum height 6’ 5” (196cm)
� Be able to obtain an EASA Class 1 medical without restrictions
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Jensen.
Ok, explain it to me then.
How is it cheaper for virgin to pay for the Full licence training (approx £100K+), the type rating (£40K?) the circuits (£???K) and let's say 90 sectors with a training captain plus an FO for I'm guessing quite a few, plus then have a young chap/chappess who will stay forever and end up on top whack pay scale for years and will only have reduced pay for a few years rather than an old fully trained bloke who will,start on similar pay and retire on a much lower pay scale.
Cadets obviously fit the bill to supply something that virgin wants(I'm guessing that they want the ability to mould a clean sheet plus the ability to select for ability rather than wallet size), but cheap they are not.
It may just be that they are not getting the quality they need from the open market.
I have had a couple of recruiters for major airlines tell me that there are huge numbers of Pilots with frozen ATPLs in the UK who are basically unemployable. It's is possible to get the licence without being good enough to do the job, you just need to have enough money to throw at repeated attempts.
Ok, explain it to me then.
How is it cheaper for virgin to pay for the Full licence training (approx £100K+), the type rating (£40K?) the circuits (£???K) and let's say 90 sectors with a training captain plus an FO for I'm guessing quite a few, plus then have a young chap/chappess who will stay forever and end up on top whack pay scale for years and will only have reduced pay for a few years rather than an old fully trained bloke who will,start on similar pay and retire on a much lower pay scale.
Cadets obviously fit the bill to supply something that virgin wants(I'm guessing that they want the ability to mould a clean sheet plus the ability to select for ability rather than wallet size), but cheap they are not.
It may just be that they are not getting the quality they need from the open market.
I have had a couple of recruiters for major airlines tell me that there are huge numbers of Pilots with frozen ATPLs in the UK who are basically unemployable. It's is possible to get the licence without being good enough to do the job, you just need to have enough money to throw at repeated attempts.
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You have effectively answered your own questions. Cadets will be on reduced salary so in reality paying for their own training. VA gets to write off vat and tax of training costs upfront. Net result is they get 50 cadets that sing from the Virgin hymn sheet from day 1.
Every airline thinks that their sops and standards are the best. It's the nature of the industry. Moulding young impressionable wannabes from day 1 will endear them to stay. They won't be able to afford to jump ship to nasty big cousin BA as they are entrapped in a huge bond - we'll not unless VA goes under....
Top of scale salaries are for another day. Airline accountants don't think more than a few years ahead. The reality is that in 9 years time when they are off bond VA just like my own airline will no doubt have a different salary scale.
Every airline thinks that their sops and standards are the best. It's the nature of the industry. Moulding young impressionable wannabes from day 1 will endear them to stay. They won't be able to afford to jump ship to nasty big cousin BA as they are entrapped in a huge bond - we'll not unless VA goes under....
Top of scale salaries are for another day. Airline accountants don't think more than a few years ahead. The reality is that in 9 years time when they are off bond VA just like my own airline will no doubt have a different salary scale.
Iver,
I'm sure you're right about pilots wanting to return, but it was explained to us that this is driven by the retirement statistics and hiring more middle aged'ish' pilots would compound the problem. The numbers we were quoted indicated is is not a cheap option for VS..quite the reverse in fact. I will be interested to see how the new pilots manage the frequency of the landings, but I imagine this has been addressed (extra sims perhaps). Interesting times!
I'm sure you're right about pilots wanting to return, but it was explained to us that this is driven by the retirement statistics and hiring more middle aged'ish' pilots would compound the problem. The numbers we were quoted indicated is is not a cheap option for VS..quite the reverse in fact. I will be interested to see how the new pilots manage the frequency of the landings, but I imagine this has been addressed (extra sims perhaps). Interesting times!
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It may just be that they are not getting the quality they need from the open market.
I have had a couple of recruiters for major airlines tell me that there are huge numbers of Pilots with frozen ATPLs in the UK who are basically unemployable. It's is possible to get the licence without being good enough to do the job, you just need to have enough money to throw at repeated attempts.
What
. First, there is loads of quality out there. If you really think you are so much better than all the others out there trying to get a job, try it. Second…. the recruiters are not saying that because of a perception of quality, it is because of schemes like MPL mean there are no jobs for these guys. Again, nothing to do with quality.
I have had a couple of recruiters for major airlines tell me that there are huge numbers of Pilots with frozen ATPLs in the UK who are basically unemployable. It's is possible to get the licence without being good enough to do the job, you just need to have enough money to throw at repeated attempts.
What
. First, there is loads of quality out there. If you really think you are so much better than all the others out there trying to get a job, try it. Second…. the recruiters are not saying that because of a perception of quality, it is because of schemes like MPL mean there are no jobs for these guys. Again, nothing to do with quality.
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Thank you for your comments. I understand that this can me an emotive subject but I can assure you that this is not pilots on the cheap as Virgin are going to invest in their development with us.
A lot of work has gone on over the last 18 months to be at a stage to launch and I am very excited and proud to be part of it.
To just put minds at rest about future DEP recruitment please find below 2 points:
1/ We envisage future recruitment will continue to include significant numbers of experienced pilots via our existing 3,000 hr application routes. With almost half of our pilot workforce expected to retire within the next 15 years, there will be opportunity via both the cadet route and via the conventional experienced pilot recruitment route, and we’re also looking in the longer-term to offer an intermediate programme between the two.
2/ First pilots from the Future Pilot programme are expected to commence line flying with us in 2017. We have recently updated the 10 candidates in our pilot hold pool that we do not expect to undertake recruitment in 2015 (although there will be some internal command promotions) as a result of the change in mix of our route network between flights requiring two and three pilot complements. However, we expect that we will be recruiting in early 2016 – ahead of the first pilots from our Future Pilot programme arriving – and will afford priority at that time to those candidates currently in our hold pool. It’s also likely that we’ll invite further external applications from pilots meeting our criteria of 3,000 hrs including 1,000 hrs on a commercial jet transport in excess of 15 tonnes MTOW
Thank you
Nathan
Training Standards Manager
Virgin Atlantic
A lot of work has gone on over the last 18 months to be at a stage to launch and I am very excited and proud to be part of it.
To just put minds at rest about future DEP recruitment please find below 2 points:
1/ We envisage future recruitment will continue to include significant numbers of experienced pilots via our existing 3,000 hr application routes. With almost half of our pilot workforce expected to retire within the next 15 years, there will be opportunity via both the cadet route and via the conventional experienced pilot recruitment route, and we’re also looking in the longer-term to offer an intermediate programme between the two.
2/ First pilots from the Future Pilot programme are expected to commence line flying with us in 2017. We have recently updated the 10 candidates in our pilot hold pool that we do not expect to undertake recruitment in 2015 (although there will be some internal command promotions) as a result of the change in mix of our route network between flights requiring two and three pilot complements. However, we expect that we will be recruiting in early 2016 – ahead of the first pilots from our Future Pilot programme arriving – and will afford priority at that time to those candidates currently in our hold pool. It’s also likely that we’ll invite further external applications from pilots meeting our criteria of 3,000 hrs including 1,000 hrs on a commercial jet transport in excess of 15 tonnes MTOW
Thank you
Nathan
Training Standards Manager
Virgin Atlantic
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JuxofMarlow,
Well said. Another blow to the thousands of heavy turboprop pilots looking to move onto jets and of course the already rated jet pilots looking to come back to the UK. The rungs in the ladder are well and truly frozen for all and forever! I will be stuck in GA flying light turboprops it seems.
Can't find talent in the current pool of fATPL's; my ass. I know loads of genuinely good guys/gals and they are solid aviators looking for a break.
The only winners here are CTC and of course Virgin by virtue of the reduced vat bills and offset to profits by deducting training costs.
I never imagined this rot would set into VA. Gonna be interesting swapping life experience stories in the cruise between the old herc skippa and the 20 year old bruv; innit!
Well said. Another blow to the thousands of heavy turboprop pilots looking to move onto jets and of course the already rated jet pilots looking to come back to the UK. The rungs in the ladder are well and truly frozen for all and forever! I will be stuck in GA flying light turboprops it seems.
Can't find talent in the current pool of fATPL's; my ass. I know loads of genuinely good guys/gals and they are solid aviators looking for a break.
The only winners here are CTC and of course Virgin by virtue of the reduced vat bills and offset to profits by deducting training costs.
I never imagined this rot would set into VA. Gonna be interesting swapping life experience stories in the cruise between the old herc skippa and the 20 year old bruv; innit!
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I know a couple of guys in the current 'pool'. They have little faith in being offered anything now and are looking at other things. There were only supposed to be 10 left anyway. I guess by the time 2016 arrives that 10 will be down to a couple.
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This is truly heartbreaking news for the flying industry. I am devastated that Virgin have sunk so low.
It is massively insulting to suggest this has been bought about by a lack of quality in the market place, Virgin could open recruitment tomorrow and receive thousands of applications the vast majority of which will be highly trained skilled aviators. lets face it the vast majority of F/Os flying round in the UK and the ME have been trained by CTC or Oxford and would give their right ball for a shoot at Virgin.
I am sick to death of people justifying these schemes by suggesting the new CTC cadets are some how better than the old ones. This is a cost saving exercise and nothing else, people can say what they want but these cadets are taking jobs from experienced guys by under cutting them on wages. I wonder how the TUC would react if transport for London started doing the same on the Tube????
And I have not read the advert so correct me if I am wrong, but has Virgin actually said they will be funding the training? I would expect a cheque for 100 grand will be needed in order to apply?!
I have said it before and I will say it again, the market place is saturated with Pilots and anything that encourages more people in to this profession should be avoided at all costs otherwise we will all end paying the price!
I know this is all very selfish of me and yes I am only concerned with protecting my job and pay but please understand this profession is how I feed my family and put a roof over their heads, it's not a hobby or an aspiration, it is my career and I don't want to lose it. I am too old and invested to do anything else.
It is massively insulting to suggest this has been bought about by a lack of quality in the market place, Virgin could open recruitment tomorrow and receive thousands of applications the vast majority of which will be highly trained skilled aviators. lets face it the vast majority of F/Os flying round in the UK and the ME have been trained by CTC or Oxford and would give their right ball for a shoot at Virgin.
I am sick to death of people justifying these schemes by suggesting the new CTC cadets are some how better than the old ones. This is a cost saving exercise and nothing else, people can say what they want but these cadets are taking jobs from experienced guys by under cutting them on wages. I wonder how the TUC would react if transport for London started doing the same on the Tube????
And I have not read the advert so correct me if I am wrong, but has Virgin actually said they will be funding the training? I would expect a cheque for 100 grand will be needed in order to apply?!
I have said it before and I will say it again, the market place is saturated with Pilots and anything that encourages more people in to this profession should be avoided at all costs otherwise we will all end paying the price!
I know this is all very selfish of me and yes I am only concerned with protecting my job and pay but please understand this profession is how I feed my family and put a roof over their heads, it's not a hobby or an aspiration, it is my career and I don't want to lose it. I am too old and invested to do anything else.
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these cadets are taking jobs from experienced guys by under cutting them on wages.
I'm not fully in the know, so forgive this question but, why are there so many experienced commercial airline pilots out of work?
I know this is all very selfish of me and yes I am only concerned with protecting my job and pay but please understand this profession is how I feed my family and put a roof over their heads, it's not a hobby or an aspiration, it is my career and I don't want to lose it. I am too old and invested to do anything else.
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Sorry guys but some of you need to calm down..
We are talking about ONLY 12 cadet vacancies...
Virgin are STILL recruiting experienced pilots and also now that the cadets will need base training it also opens up applications to ex mil fast jet guys who are currently not elligible for ZFT..
just my own 2 dollars worth!
We are talking about ONLY 12 cadet vacancies...
Virgin are STILL recruiting experienced pilots and also now that the cadets will need base training it also opens up applications to ex mil fast jet guys who are currently not elligible for ZFT..
just my own 2 dollars worth!
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Monarch580
You must be joking. Or very stupid.
If you do not know why there are so many unemployed pilots or UK pilots forced to work overseas and desperate to return home then words fail me. Just google airline failures. And Monarch580, what about Monarch. Not exactly recruiting are they.
Enzo999 is not being selfish. He presumably has children to feed and a mortgage to cover. He, like most of us with our eyes open, can see what happens when you flood the market with cheap resource. The kids are happy today because they only have to pay token rent to mummy and daddy and buy an iPhone 6. Do you think this march downwards in terms and conditions will stop here? In five years when these kids are experienced but still cheap, how are they going to feel when they cannot progress either financially or professionally because even cheaper still kids are taking their positions. Don't say it won't happen because it is today and will tomorrow.
If you do not know why there are so many unemployed pilots or UK pilots forced to work overseas and desperate to return home then words fail me. Just google airline failures. And Monarch580, what about Monarch. Not exactly recruiting are they.
Enzo999 is not being selfish. He presumably has children to feed and a mortgage to cover. He, like most of us with our eyes open, can see what happens when you flood the market with cheap resource. The kids are happy today because they only have to pay token rent to mummy and daddy and buy an iPhone 6. Do you think this march downwards in terms and conditions will stop here? In five years when these kids are experienced but still cheap, how are they going to feel when they cannot progress either financially or professionally because even cheaper still kids are taking their positions. Don't say it won't happen because it is today and will tomorrow.
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How would you suggest that "these cadets" find a way into this industry? It is not their intention to undercut other pilots but they know just as you know, it is their only way in.
I'm not fully in the know, so forgive this question but, why are there so many experienced commercial airline pilots out of work?
I'm not fully in the know, so forgive this question but, why are there so many experienced commercial airline pilots out of work?
You ask how they should get into the industry? Well here's a thought, how about sucking it up buttercup, graft and work your way up. Oh too late. That question should've been asked years ago, and guess what?! You cant do that now.
Back when pprune was full of sensible advice to the odd (back then) idiot who wanted to get a big loan and join this new fangled airline placement scheme. "no!" said everyone, work hard, save up, do it in modules and get a turboprop job and do it the hard way, it'll pay off. It went wrong when the first person turned their cheek on the hard way and signed up to the short cut. No turning back now. Damn mess of this industry in the UK has been caused by CTC and the impatience of trainee pilots with egos and self righteousness bigger than Jupiter. Oh well, impatience and access to credit were always the undoing of society.