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Virgin recruiting soon...

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Virgin recruiting soon...

Old 18th Apr 2020, 16:45
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Present BA MSL shows numbers to 4469 and MPE,manpower equivalent heads approx 4000
Planned recruitment 2020 was 300, 2021 250.
Part offered to All now.
natural wastage 1%
Retirements and comorbity considerations some more
Unpaid leave possible as has been done before in 80s
380 Pilots will most likely transfer to 350,4 more deliveries till year end total 9
744 pilots will have to sit it out until course available.
Mckinsey report this weak forecasting return to previous levels in LH will take six Quarters

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Old 18th Apr 2020, 16:51
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Originally Posted by recall_checked View Post
https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-r...for-redundancy

UK Gov says last in first out is acceptable.
Its not quite that black and white. Note the 'Unfair Selection' section. I'd imagine seniority at BA / Virgin is so highly correlated with age that it could be argued to be the same thing.

I also agree with the above posters. Even if it was legal, I see no business case for the company to use LIFO and the unions have no power at this time to intervene.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 17:33
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I really do not think that compulsory redundancy will be required at BA and don't understand why some people keep raising it, particularly on a Virgin thread.

BA's redundancy policy has been updated over the years, the last time in 2015, 9 years after age discrimination legislation came into force. Seniority rules everything at BA, it is not dependent upon age, there are relatively young senior LH P1s and old junior P2s. Joining BA is always a very long term bet. MOA K.11 clearly specifies LIFO as the general principle to be applied if redundancies are required.

I personally believe that an effective treatment for the virus will be found soon. A vaccine may be far away, but much improved treatment needn't be. Confidence will be restored if people know the likelihood of passing away from the virus is very very small.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 18:54
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Letís put a lid on this. It will only escalate to an argument with no benefit. BA will do as it sees fit. Virgin will do the same. Extraordinary times will mean the past is a unreliable reference for the present. Letís wait and see, once we know more hopefully we can come together to look out for each other.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 07:58
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Letís be honest here. Generally Speaking, the pilots most vociferously against LIFO are the very ones who would benefit the most if it were not applied. Typically they make up the bottom 20-30% of the pilot work force.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 08:12
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Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7 View Post
Letís be honest here. Generally Speaking, the pilots most vociferously against LIFO are the very ones who would benefit the most if it were not applied. Typically they make up the bottom 20-30% of the pilot work force.
And those for it are on the wrong (usually older so should have known better) fleet.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 09:16
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
And those for it are on the wrong (usually older so should have known better) fleet.
You mean the majority of pilots?
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 23:58
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Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7 View Post
Let’s be honest here. Generally Speaking, the pilots most vociferously against LIFO are the very ones who would benefit the most if it were not applied. Typically they make up the bottom 20-30% of the pilot work force.
exactly, also making people redundant from the top costs much more than someone with less time in the company. Less than 2 years and they dont have to pay redundancy.
good luck to all.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 00:03
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Mr Kipling are you sure about that? Have you seen the pitiful state of a statutory redundancy payment in the U.K. recently? In the greater scheme of things itís peanuts. The average BA PP24 LH Captain would be looking at a rough maximum of £16K as a payout. Not even including the company pension payment BA will have broken even on that redundancy payment in less than a month of payroll reduction. Thereís huge savings to be made on an ongoing basis from chopping the most senior first. Not saying thatís going to happen just pointing out that saying itís more expensive to sling out the most senior pilots is nonsense.

(Iím neither arguing for or against LIFO. If you were talking about a 20% reduction in VS or BA, IĎd actually probably be just about safe if it were applied. However Iím a realist and I know that a company in financial distress will do exactly what suits them and is the safest legally (ie slinging out those caught up in the process of closing a base or chopping a fleet) not abiding by gentlemenís agreements).

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Old 20th Apr 2020, 11:41
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There's no way BA will continue with the current pilot headcount as it stands. They'll be doing the numbers already and planning on a significantly smaller airline post this crisis than at the start of this year which means jobs lost sadly. Yes there'll be guys who go part-time, take VUL and early retirement but it won't be enough for the scale of this economic crisis. Anyhow, this is a Virgin Atlantic thread not BA.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 12:52
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I hear you Rex and I haven't looked at the figures, however, 16k is still more than 0 isnt it. I presume the bottom 20% aren't ready to do the jobs of the top 20% either?

LIFO on its own apparently isn't legal, however as someone else said it is if there is a mix of ages in the bottom 20% and lets face it at all of the bigger companies where people used to want to work they have a good spread of ages.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 18:19
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Mr Kipling are you sure about that? Have you seen the pitiful state of a statutory redundancy payment in the U.K. recently? In the greater scheme of things itís peanuts. The average BA PP24 LH Captain would be looking at a rough maximum of £16K as a payout. Not even including the company pension payment BA will have broken even on that redundancy payment in less than a month of payroll reduction. Thereís huge savings to be made on an ongoing basis from chopping the most senior first. Not saying thatís going to happen just pointing out that saying itís more expensive to sling out the most senior pilots is nonsense.

(Iím neither arguing for or against LIFO. If you were talking about a 20% reduction in VS or BA, IĎd actually probably be just about safe if it were applied. However Iím a realist and I know that a company in financial distress will do exactly what suits them and is the safest legally (ie slinging out those caught up in the process of closing a base or chopping a fleet) not abiding by gentlemenís agreements).
LIFO in BA isnít a ďgentlemanís agreementĒ. Itís written in the MOA. (k.11.). And yes, it was updated as recently as 2015.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 18:50
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And what do you think we’re going to be able to do about it if BA decide it will cost them too much money, 3Greens? Go on strike?

Anyway this has drifted far from VS so I apologise. My general point though which will apply to Virgin too is that - in the current climate - if anyone seriously thinks an airline is going to play nice and uphold agreements and start retraining pilots at massive cost whilst their financial house is burning down around them then I’d like some of what they’re smoking, especially as lockdown is seemingly going on forever.

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Old 20th Apr 2020, 20:15
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
LIFO in BA isnít a ďgentlemanís agreementĒ. Itís written in the MOA. (k.11.). And yes, it was updated as recently as 2015.
Would this be the MOA that had a section of it suspended just a month or so ago when it didnt suit?
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 23:23
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Originally Posted by clvf88 View Post
Would this be the MOA that had a section of it suspended just a month or so ago when it didnt suit?
Exactly my thoughts. They'll do as they wish - a balance sheet with the strength of IAG let's hope CR is not reqd.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 04:38
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Originally Posted by clvf88 View Post
Would this be the MOA that had a section of it suspended just a month or so ago when it didnt suit?
the very same one that was suspended in full agreement with BALPA, and as Iím sure youíre aware. It was just a small subsection of schedule F that is suspended. That being, to allow fleets in surplus to have a supplementary bid processed before PRIAM. But Iím sure you knew that..
Iím fact i understand as I was on the online meeting today that BA are very much inside with BALPA on all of this.
I think there will be some tough decisions ahead, but as it stands, I donít see CR being on the cards at BA yet. I think we can find ways to keep everyone employed until it picks up again, which it will.
the MOA is our contract with our employer and without agreement, BA need to follow the law and any changes either agreed, or if it wishes to serve notice on any part it has to make a legal case and serve 90 days notice. There is legal precedent within our airline from 2008 when BA filed the HR1 for 140 MPE. I understand, from the chair of the BACC at the time, it was their intention to use qualified LIFO.
As a group we took some pain back then, and Iím sure we can do again.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:43
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
the very same one that was suspended in full agreement with BALPA, and as Iím sure youíre aware. It was just a small subsection of schedule F that is suspended. That being, to allow fleets in surplus to have a supplementary bid processed before PRIAM. But Iím sure you knew that..
Iím fact i understand as I was on the online meeting today that BA are very much inside with BALPA on all of this.
I think there will be some tough decisions ahead, but as it stands, I donít see CR being on the cards at BA yet. I think we can find ways to keep everyone employed until it picks up again, which it will.
the MOA is our contract with our employer and without agreement, BA need to follow the law and any changes either agreed, or if it wishes to serve notice on any part it has to make a legal case and serve 90 days notice. There is legal precedent within our airline from 2008 when BA filed the HR1 for 140 MPE. I understand, from the chair of the BACC at the time, it was their intention to use qualified LIFO.
As a group we took some pain back then, and Iím sure we can do again.
Thanks for the additional info 3G. Interesting.

Nothing would suprise me at the moment, but I do hope you're correct.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:12
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Originally Posted by MrKipling View Post
I hear you Rex and I haven't looked at the figures, however, 16k is still more than 0 isnt it. I presume the bottom 20% aren't ready to do the jobs of the top 20% either?

LIFO on its own apparently isn't legal, however as someone else said it is if there is a mix of ages in the bottom 20% and lets face it at all of the bigger companies where people used to want to work they have a good spread of ages.
the other point to consider is that anyone above about the age of 55 could be categorised as an at risk group. It may well be the best plan to send the over 55/60s off to furlough for a while whilst this blows through - there may even need to be temporary command upgrades required to cope. Looks like community immunity is the only way out of this pickle with no vaccine in sight. After Thalidomide the medical research profession will refuse to cut standards, unless itís for
life saving treatment. That means that unless there is a controlled release put in place for this, the global economy wonít survive. The media coverage preparing populations for this has already started.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 12:41
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VR,

I suspect that you are only looking at 1 side of the solution, a vaccine to prevent people catching the virus.

Another way forward is to establish effective treatments to cure those with the virus. It may be easier to progress more quickly with finding a cure as those already in ICU and facing grim odds may be willing to try experimental drugs to help find that life saving treatment. Some countries seem to have a much higher success rate than others, with time the various strategies can be examined and compared. Hopefully there will be time over the summer to prepare for a second phase in the autumn.

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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:23
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Originally Posted by Pickled View Post
VR,

I suspect that you are only looking at 1 side of the solution, a vaccine to prevent people catching the virus.

Another way forward is to establish effective treatments to cure those with the virus. It may be easier to progress more quickly with finding a cure as those already in ICU and facing grim odds may be willing to try experimental drugs to help find that life saving treatment. Some countries seem to have a much higher success rate than others, with time the various strategies can be examined and compared. Hopefully there will be time over the summer to prepare for a second phase in the autumn.
quite the opposite - I think the only way out of this is natural transmission and natural immunity. A vaccine will provide at best 80% effective protection. Thatís the typical figure for an effective vaccine, this one is new, so May be lower. After thalidomide, research companies wonít release without extensive testing. I honestly donít see a vaccine this side of September 21.

agree on treatment though. Be interested to see what the government guidelines are when they are released ref consideration of ďvulnerableĒ. Iíve flown with some of our more elderly chaps recently and they are not content to fly if this becomes more widespread.
Edit:
Government may recommend lockdown to everyone including over 60s now. Know itís in the daily rant, but no smoke without fire.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...erts-warn.html

Last edited by VinRouge; 22nd Apr 2020 at 08:39.
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