Virgin recruiting soon...
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
From: UK
Have faith RB
no one has mentioned the 20% everyone seems to be going on about! Yes the will be job losses unfortunately BUT there are a lot of people retiring, Managed exit, part time and a workforce pay cut will see a good few jobs saved! It’s a horrible time! But try to stay positive.
If the axe does fall on you or me I’ll be taking, if possible the unpaid leave option (they’ve done this in the past)
Good luck to all!
no one has mentioned the 20% everyone seems to be going on about! Yes the will be job losses unfortunately BUT there are a lot of people retiring, Managed exit, part time and a workforce pay cut will see a good few jobs saved! It’s a horrible time! But try to stay positive.
If the axe does fall on you or me I’ll be taking, if possible the unpaid leave option (they’ve done this in the past)
Good luck to all!
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 123
Likes: 9
From: UK
20% certainly seems to be a number thrown around a lot at the moment, seemingly with no foundation. Someone in BA mentioned 80% capacity by Christmas - this does not automatically mean they're about to chop 20% of the airline. What about after that?
It's difficult not to chastise oneself over decisions made that in retrospect now look like the wrong ones. I dare say I'd have been considerably more secure at my previous airline than where I now sit on the MSL at BA. You make the best decision you can based on all the information you have available at the time. Had you turned down a move based on fear of a global pandemic threatening jobs, you'd have been branded insane.
Ultimately no-one knows how this will ride out. If there's a vaccine developed in the timescale some reports seem to suggest, it may not be as long as some of the pessimists would have you believe.
As has been mentioned I expect lots of options are being looked at, in every airline, to protect as many jobs as possible. I sincerely hope that pilots at the top of seniority lists, with no mortgage and big pension pots, are having a long hard look in the mirror right now.
It's difficult not to chastise oneself over decisions made that in retrospect now look like the wrong ones. I dare say I'd have been considerably more secure at my previous airline than where I now sit on the MSL at BA. You make the best decision you can based on all the information you have available at the time. Had you turned down a move based on fear of a global pandemic threatening jobs, you'd have been branded insane.
Ultimately no-one knows how this will ride out. If there's a vaccine developed in the timescale some reports seem to suggest, it may not be as long as some of the pessimists would have you believe.
As has been mentioned I expect lots of options are being looked at, in every airline, to protect as many jobs as possible. I sincerely hope that pilots at the top of seniority lists, with no mortgage and big pension pots, are having a long hard look in the mirror right now.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 156
Likes: 4
From: between the M6 and M25
Virgin Atlantic told to resubmit bailout bid by ‘unimpressed’ UK Treasury
https://www.ft.com/content/e2636703-...8-b944e032db1f
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: London
Virgin Atlantic told to resubmit bailout bid by ‘unimpressed’ UK Treasury
https://www.ft.com/content/e2636703-...8-b944e032db1f
tell me something I don’t know
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
From: UK
Again I’d be taking that with a pinch of salt! Our CEO said just last night that the talks with the Government are progressing! If I have learnt anything the past few weeks is not to believe anything written in the paper or social media!
Virgin are dealing with Morgan Stanley to sort out funding and until I hear otherwise the above is compete nonsense.
Virgin are dealing with Morgan Stanley to sort out funding and until I hear otherwise the above is compete nonsense.
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
From: UK
And especially after that tosspot reporter Jim pickards question to the health secretary 🙄 last week regarding Virgins bailout prospects, id hazard a guess in pointing out that “The times” has some sort of agenda with Virgin!
Last edited by A320baby; 18th April 2020 at 13:19.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 848
Likes: 0
From: Courchevel
Of course with some papers but not the FT. Let's face it Virgin Atlantic are trying to get a leg up to keep in business because they don't have the cash in the bank like IAG and wizzair do. They'll only get the taxpayer to cough up (again as they're already avialing of the 80% of wages help) if they take more serious measures to stave off going out of business. There's quite a few on here hoping it ain't so bad probably because they work there which is totally understandable but I'm afraid this virus pandemic is really bad, I think deep down they know that though. We need to see the owners do more, a lot more before taxpayers money gets used to prop up an airline which has been making significant losses in recent years. Remember FlyBe..?
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 155
Likes: 4
From: EU
20% certainly seems to be a number thrown around a lot at the moment, seemingly with no foundation. Someone in BA mentioned 80% capacity by Christmas - this does not automatically mean they're about to chop 20% of the airline. What about after that?
It's difficult not to chastise oneself over decisions made that in retrospect now look like the wrong ones. I dare say I'd have been considerably more secure at my previous airline than where I now sit on the MSL at BA. You make the best decision you can based on all the information you have available at the time. Had you turned down a move based on fear of a global pandemic threatening jobs, you'd have been branded insane.
Ultimately no-one knows how this will ride out. If there's a vaccine developed in the timescale some reports seem to suggest, it may not be as long as some of the pessimists would have you believe.
As has been mentioned I expect lots of options are being looked at, in every airline, to protect as many jobs as possible. I sincerely hope that pilots at the top of seniority lists, with no mortgage and big pension pots, are having a long hard look in the mirror right now.
It's difficult not to chastise oneself over decisions made that in retrospect now look like the wrong ones. I dare say I'd have been considerably more secure at my previous airline than where I now sit on the MSL at BA. You make the best decision you can based on all the information you have available at the time. Had you turned down a move based on fear of a global pandemic threatening jobs, you'd have been branded insane.
Ultimately no-one knows how this will ride out. If there's a vaccine developed in the timescale some reports seem to suggest, it may not be as long as some of the pessimists would have you believe.
As has been mentioned I expect lots of options are being looked at, in every airline, to protect as many jobs as possible. I sincerely hope that pilots at the top of seniority lists, with no mortgage and big pension pots, are having a long hard look in the mirror right now.
This is when you’ll see lots of very selfish individuals both in the cabin and flight deck.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
However I fear/caution that binning all the senior guys might not be a panacea in the current situation at e.g. BA where it looks like it wants to keep certain fleets running but might possibly be happy to consign other fleets to history....think they are going to indulge in fleet moves for all pilots?
Last edited by wiggy; 18th April 2020 at 16:13.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
Correct Wiggy. Those thinking that BA (and this could apply to any airline with multiple fleets and bases) will just chop the bottom (or top) X% and then happily pay the bill to retrain those left are living in cloud cuckoo land. That’s before you even get into the - at very least - questionable legality of making someone redundant and then retraining someone else to take their role. That’s why no one can feel safe from this process if/when it happens.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
From: UK
Correct Wiggy. Those thinking that BA (and this could apply to any airline with multiple fleets and bases) will just chop the bottom (or top) X% and then happily pay the bill to retrain those left are living in cloud cuckoo land. That’s before you even get into the - at very least - questionable legality of making someone redundant and then retraining someone else to take their role. That’s why no one can feel safe from this process if/when it happens.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: uk
LIFO is illegal... pure and simple! It’s age discrimination as Airlines know. 120 of us got kicked out of Thomson under LIFO with a few bells and whistles added on... Which alluded to pure LIFO.
The only option to challenge it is a strike.... Good luck to any workforce who considers a move like that during these uncertain times. Unfortunately meritocracy is the future and tough times like this will only drive home this agenda.
The only option to challenge it is a strike.... Good luck to any workforce who considers a move like that during these uncertain times. Unfortunately meritocracy is the future and tough times like this will only drive home this agenda.
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 44
Likes: 2
From: Up north
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
That is true, LIFO in and of itself is not illegal as criteria for selection. However “as the sole measure of selection it’s legally unsafe”. Quoted direct but not verbatim from the lawyers sorting out the Flybe mess in 2013.
Last edited by RexBanner; 18th April 2020 at 16:44.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
From: London
I think some here are missing the point.
LIFO may well be acceptable, but in BA's case consider:
1. Is it advisable to make redundant, and replace, a cheap junior A320 FO with a senior A380/747 FO (who's role has become redundant)?
2. Will BA want to incur the cost of re-training a senior B747/A380 FO into the position of an already trained a ready to go cheap junior A320 FO. Why would they want to incur ANY cost when they're haemorrhaging cash?
3. As this situation is such an unknown, will BA want to get rid of a load of cheap junior, ready to go (other than a recency sim) A320 FO's and have a pool of 747/A380 senior FO's waiting round to be go through a 4-6 week training course with aircraft unnecessarily sitting on the ground?
I mention A320 above because that's where most of the junior guys start. BA is a corporate animal. I'm sure it wouldn't bat an eye at having to make some brutal decisions over the coming months. People say BA have never made pilot redundancies - problem is, this is a very different BA. As much as this situation is hurting BA I'm also sure they're looking at ways to manipulate it to their advantage.
I sincerely hope BA keeps everybody employed but there are difficult days coming.
Good luck to you Virgins too 🤞
LIFO may well be acceptable, but in BA's case consider:
1. Is it advisable to make redundant, and replace, a cheap junior A320 FO with a senior A380/747 FO (who's role has become redundant)?
2. Will BA want to incur the cost of re-training a senior B747/A380 FO into the position of an already trained a ready to go cheap junior A320 FO. Why would they want to incur ANY cost when they're haemorrhaging cash?
3. As this situation is such an unknown, will BA want to get rid of a load of cheap junior, ready to go (other than a recency sim) A320 FO's and have a pool of 747/A380 senior FO's waiting round to be go through a 4-6 week training course with aircraft unnecessarily sitting on the ground?
I mention A320 above because that's where most of the junior guys start. BA is a corporate animal. I'm sure it wouldn't bat an eye at having to make some brutal decisions over the coming months. People say BA have never made pilot redundancies - problem is, this is a very different BA. As much as this situation is hurting BA I'm also sure they're looking at ways to manipulate it to their advantage.
I sincerely hope BA keeps everybody employed but there are difficult days coming.
Good luck to you Virgins too 🤞
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 179
Likes: 25
From: uk
Present BA MSL shows numbers to 4469 and MPE,manpower equivalent heads approx 4000
Planned recruitment 2020 was 300, 2021 250.
Part offered to All now.
natural wastage 1%
Retirements and comorbity considerations some more
Unpaid leave possible as has been done before in 80s
380 Pilots will most likely transfer to 350,4 more deliveries till year end total 9
744 pilots will have to sit it out until course available.
Mckinsey report this weak forecasting return to previous levels in LH will take six Quarters
Planned recruitment 2020 was 300, 2021 250.
Part offered to All now.
natural wastage 1%
Retirements and comorbity considerations some more
Unpaid leave possible as has been done before in 80s
380 Pilots will most likely transfer to 350,4 more deliveries till year end total 9
744 pilots will have to sit it out until course available.
Mckinsey report this weak forecasting return to previous levels in LH will take six Quarters
Last edited by Phantom4; 18th April 2020 at 16:47. Reason: Error
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 163
Likes: 18
From: London
I also agree with the above posters. Even if it was legal, I see no business case for the company to use LIFO and the unions have no power at this time to intervene.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
I really do not think that compulsory redundancy will be required at BA and don't understand why some people keep raising it, particularly on a Virgin thread.
BA's redundancy policy has been updated over the years, the last time in 2015, 9 years after age discrimination legislation came into force. Seniority rules everything at BA, it is not dependent upon age, there are relatively young senior LH P1s and old junior P2s. Joining BA is always a very long term bet. MOA K.11 clearly specifies LIFO as the general principle to be applied if redundancies are required.
I personally believe that an effective treatment for the virus will be found soon. A vaccine may be far away, but much improved treatment needn't be. Confidence will be restored if people know the likelihood of passing away from the virus is very very small.
BA's redundancy policy has been updated over the years, the last time in 2015, 9 years after age discrimination legislation came into force. Seniority rules everything at BA, it is not dependent upon age, there are relatively young senior LH P1s and old junior P2s. Joining BA is always a very long term bet. MOA K.11 clearly specifies LIFO as the general principle to be applied if redundancies are required.
I personally believe that an effective treatment for the virus will be found soon. A vaccine may be far away, but much improved treatment needn't be. Confidence will be restored if people know the likelihood of passing away from the virus is very very small.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Uk
Let’s put a lid on this. It will only escalate to an argument with no benefit. BA will do as it sees fit. Virgin will do the same. Extraordinary times will mean the past is a unreliable reference for the present. Let’s wait and see, once we know more hopefully we can come together to look out for each other.