Virgin Atlantic Pilots to ballot for Industrial action
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Age: 54
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heavy operator.
What a well written and extremely well explained post. It took me a couple of reads to fully understand it but that's me (as a lowly HGV driver).
It's sad to see that in so many places management "techniques" are merely another term for bullying. I count the company I work for in this as well.
For too many years "management" (and I use the term in it's loosest sense) have relied on the professionalism you show to get the job done and now their credit appears to have run out.
You have my suppport and if you want to get up senior managements noses just let me know and I'll park my 45' trailer across a few drives. (only joking for those who have a SOH reduction)
What a well written and extremely well explained post. It took me a couple of reads to fully understand it but that's me (as a lowly HGV driver).
It's sad to see that in so many places management "techniques" are merely another term for bullying. I count the company I work for in this as well.
For too many years "management" (and I use the term in it's loosest sense) have relied on the professionalism you show to get the job done and now their credit appears to have run out.
You have my suppport and if you want to get up senior managements noses just let me know and I'll park my 45' trailer across a few drives. (only joking for those who have a SOH reduction)
Last edited by Fatboy Ginge; 23rd Jun 2011 at 14:56.
Not looking for sympathy
ASRAAM
Legal action could take years,bouncing back and forth from court to court.
Pilots know that they'll never get sympathy or support from Daily Mail readers unless it involves a safety issue so there's no point in looking for it.
Pilots in a company generally have a desire for that company to succeed in the long term because of the seniority system and therefore do not want to jeapordise that co's future.However people can eventually reach a limit with what they'll put up with and the dire level of managers within Virgin has brought that limit here.
The daily telegraph says about the VAA CEO in the fuel surcharge fixing case:
"Ridgway himself has admitted to the crimes the BA defendants denied – hardly the sort of thing the chief executive of any company, never mind an airline, should have on their CV."
Virgin wrote off £70 million to pay for that case (lawyers,compensation etc) so the cancellation of a few flights is not going to bring the company down but I suppose that's what they'll tell the rest of the employees to try to divide and rule.
Legal action could take years,bouncing back and forth from court to court.
Pilots know that they'll never get sympathy or support from Daily Mail readers unless it involves a safety issue so there's no point in looking for it.
Pilots in a company generally have a desire for that company to succeed in the long term because of the seniority system and therefore do not want to jeapordise that co's future.However people can eventually reach a limit with what they'll put up with and the dire level of managers within Virgin has brought that limit here.
The daily telegraph says about the VAA CEO in the fuel surcharge fixing case:
"Ridgway himself has admitted to the crimes the BA defendants denied – hardly the sort of thing the chief executive of any company, never mind an airline, should have on their CV."
Virgin wrote off £70 million to pay for that case (lawyers,compensation etc) so the cancellation of a few flights is not going to bring the company down but I suppose that's what they'll tell the rest of the employees to try to divide and rule.
Guest
Posts: n/a
At the start of this thread I asked what a typical annual amount of duty hours VS crew accrue? Reason was that, if VS management are as it reads to me, squeezing more out existing numbers of crew, how that sits with CAP371?
There's no agenda to this, I have contacts in a number of long haul operators so have a feel for the spread of hours across differing airlines, I just don't know anyone at VS to ask
Sir George Cayley
There's no agenda to this, I have contacts in a number of long haul operators so have a feel for the spread of hours across differing airlines, I just don't know anyone at VS to ask
Sir George Cayley
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SGC, this not about duty hours or even a lack of days off. It is an attempt by a weak and ineffectual management, peppered with some megalomania and a few bullies to try and weaken the BALPA representation amongst the pilot workforce. Most pilots believe that the management attitude filters down from the very highest levels.
Considering that it appears to be a pre-requisite for a senior management role within Virgin Atlantic to have some kind of relationship or even an extra-marital affair with either a member of the cabin crew or an employee within the flight ops department, it leaves the integrity of many managers in serious doubt. Again, this is all filtered down from the very highest levels of management within Virgin Atlantic.
The fact is that the pilots have a scheduling agreement with the company which, whilst sometimes a bit confusing, does clearly lay down how their lives are used by the company and how they can get some protection in order to have some useful lifestyle when not on duty. The scheduling agreement is an industrial agreement negotiated and signed by both parties, the Virgin Atlantic management and the pilots elected representative body, the BALPA Company Council.
In 1999 the company entered into a Recognition Agreement with BALPA which means that they will have to negotiate on the pilots terms and conditions. Recently, the flight ops management have resorted to stating that they will only discuss pay, hours and holidays which absolutely goes against the recognition agreement which specifically states terms and conditions. If this alone is not evidence of a breach of agreement then you have to ask yourself "what are the current management trying to achieve?".
None of the pilots are arguing that they do not get at least 120 days free of duty a year. Invariably, because of the type of flying and the size of the fleets and the number of destinations, the pilots will get more than the minimum. The point is, however, how those days free of duty are rostered so that they can plan their lives when not on duty.
It is all very well the "ignoranti" harping on about how lucky those pilots are having so much time off. The pilots and anyone else who has at least a basic understanding of what permanent long-haul flying is about will know that not knowing what days you will be working more than six weeks ahead, can and does have serious consequences on your home life. It is not even similar to some shift workers who, at least, know what their days off, years ahead, will be because of the regularity of their shift changes such as four on four off.
Before the other "ignoranti" jump up and start to compare their working lives with the "flying duty hours" of the Virgin Atlantic pilots who have an agreement in place to limit them to 760 a year, those hours only refer to the time they push back from stand on departure to the time they arrive on stand at their destination. Those hours do not include the many hours before pushback that they report for duty, often at a different airport from the one they will depart from, the many hours spent on training and refresher courses, the days and hours spent deadheading to or from destinations or between them and the hours often spent positioning either to their home base or a hotel that is often a long way from the destination airport.
Again, before the "ignoranti" cry foul and try to compare positioning duty or deadheading as some kind of luxury they should remember that it is all time working at the behest of the company. If the pilot is fortunate enough to deadhead in a premium cabin, it is still time working at the behest of the company and not at home with family or taking care of the multitude of other things that go in to having a life other than work. More importantly, spending as much time as the pilots do in hotels, the quality of which, in many cases is barely acceptable at best, the "novelty" soon wears off as they realise what home comforts really mean.
There will always be multitude of "ignoranti" who assume that the lifestyle of the long-haul pilot is one of glamour. This assumption is not helped by lazy journalists and reporters who perpetuate this assumption. Maybe twenty or thirty years ago, long before the beancounters empowered themselves, it was such. Today, with the bonus oriented management style and the ever cutting "efficiencies" as they like to call them, the glamour is all gone. If you believe the adverts you see on television, you will appreciate that it is "all fur coat and no knickers". This is especially so at Virgin Atlantic.
So, to recap, the planned ballot over industrial action by the pilots of Virgin Atlantic is over interpretation of an agreement about rostered days off. The solution is simple. Abide by the agreement. The easiest and simplest way to achieve that is by rostering less NRDs and more RDOs. On average, only one NRD has to be changed to an RDO each month and the agreement is kept. However, the current flight ops management have stated that they do not interpret it as such and that an NRD can become an RDO retrospectively if the pilot does not have to work the NRD.
Of course, the dispute about 120 days off a year has already been misinterpreted by the media who, unsurprisingly, have shown their usual inability to comprehend or report the true facts as they really are. Whilst it is appreciated that they have limited time and space to explain it in detail, they should make more effort to report it accurately. In a nutshell, it is about the number of RDOs (Rostered Days Off) in the pilots scheduling agreement which the company are have failed to roster and are continuing to fail to roster so that the pilots can plan their home lives a bit more accurately. It is about a failure of management to respect signed agreements.
Current industrial legislation only allows one issue at a time to be balloted. There are several other issues where the pilots and management have reached a "Failure to Agree" and more are pending. It is quite obvious to the Virgin Atlantic pilots that the current management regime is attempting to break the pilots union. Never before has there been such a dismal state of affairs between the pilots and the flight ops management at Virgin Atlantic which they claim is headed by a non flying "captain" who commands little respect from the majority of the pilots.
With the managements stated aim that it will not negotiate "terms and conditions", in clear breach of the recognition agreement, in the upcoming pay negotiations in a month or so, the current ballot is likely to be a rude awakening considering the resolve of the pilots to draw a line in the sand over weak management where the easy path to confrontation is the norm rather than the more difficult but rewarding path to co-operation.
As pointed out by one of the pilots who paraphrased Sir Richard Branson - "Losing My Virginity" (first edition) p 466: "I'm not opposed to unions in principle, but, surely, it's the ultimate expression of management incompetence when a company has to communicate with its workforce via a third party [a union]".
Considering that it appears to be a pre-requisite for a senior management role within Virgin Atlantic to have some kind of relationship or even an extra-marital affair with either a member of the cabin crew or an employee within the flight ops department, it leaves the integrity of many managers in serious doubt. Again, this is all filtered down from the very highest levels of management within Virgin Atlantic.
The fact is that the pilots have a scheduling agreement with the company which, whilst sometimes a bit confusing, does clearly lay down how their lives are used by the company and how they can get some protection in order to have some useful lifestyle when not on duty. The scheduling agreement is an industrial agreement negotiated and signed by both parties, the Virgin Atlantic management and the pilots elected representative body, the BALPA Company Council.
In 1999 the company entered into a Recognition Agreement with BALPA which means that they will have to negotiate on the pilots terms and conditions. Recently, the flight ops management have resorted to stating that they will only discuss pay, hours and holidays which absolutely goes against the recognition agreement which specifically states terms and conditions. If this alone is not evidence of a breach of agreement then you have to ask yourself "what are the current management trying to achieve?".
None of the pilots are arguing that they do not get at least 120 days free of duty a year. Invariably, because of the type of flying and the size of the fleets and the number of destinations, the pilots will get more than the minimum. The point is, however, how those days free of duty are rostered so that they can plan their lives when not on duty.
It is all very well the "ignoranti" harping on about how lucky those pilots are having so much time off. The pilots and anyone else who has at least a basic understanding of what permanent long-haul flying is about will know that not knowing what days you will be working more than six weeks ahead, can and does have serious consequences on your home life. It is not even similar to some shift workers who, at least, know what their days off, years ahead, will be because of the regularity of their shift changes such as four on four off.
Before the other "ignoranti" jump up and start to compare their working lives with the "flying duty hours" of the Virgin Atlantic pilots who have an agreement in place to limit them to 760 a year, those hours only refer to the time they push back from stand on departure to the time they arrive on stand at their destination. Those hours do not include the many hours before pushback that they report for duty, often at a different airport from the one they will depart from, the many hours spent on training and refresher courses, the days and hours spent deadheading to or from destinations or between them and the hours often spent positioning either to their home base or a hotel that is often a long way from the destination airport.
Again, before the "ignoranti" cry foul and try to compare positioning duty or deadheading as some kind of luxury they should remember that it is all time working at the behest of the company. If the pilot is fortunate enough to deadhead in a premium cabin, it is still time working at the behest of the company and not at home with family or taking care of the multitude of other things that go in to having a life other than work. More importantly, spending as much time as the pilots do in hotels, the quality of which, in many cases is barely acceptable at best, the "novelty" soon wears off as they realise what home comforts really mean.
There will always be multitude of "ignoranti" who assume that the lifestyle of the long-haul pilot is one of glamour. This assumption is not helped by lazy journalists and reporters who perpetuate this assumption. Maybe twenty or thirty years ago, long before the beancounters empowered themselves, it was such. Today, with the bonus oriented management style and the ever cutting "efficiencies" as they like to call them, the glamour is all gone. If you believe the adverts you see on television, you will appreciate that it is "all fur coat and no knickers". This is especially so at Virgin Atlantic.
So, to recap, the planned ballot over industrial action by the pilots of Virgin Atlantic is over interpretation of an agreement about rostered days off. The solution is simple. Abide by the agreement. The easiest and simplest way to achieve that is by rostering less NRDs and more RDOs. On average, only one NRD has to be changed to an RDO each month and the agreement is kept. However, the current flight ops management have stated that they do not interpret it as such and that an NRD can become an RDO retrospectively if the pilot does not have to work the NRD.
Of course, the dispute about 120 days off a year has already been misinterpreted by the media who, unsurprisingly, have shown their usual inability to comprehend or report the true facts as they really are. Whilst it is appreciated that they have limited time and space to explain it in detail, they should make more effort to report it accurately. In a nutshell, it is about the number of RDOs (Rostered Days Off) in the pilots scheduling agreement which the company are have failed to roster and are continuing to fail to roster so that the pilots can plan their home lives a bit more accurately. It is about a failure of management to respect signed agreements.
Current industrial legislation only allows one issue at a time to be balloted. There are several other issues where the pilots and management have reached a "Failure to Agree" and more are pending. It is quite obvious to the Virgin Atlantic pilots that the current management regime is attempting to break the pilots union. Never before has there been such a dismal state of affairs between the pilots and the flight ops management at Virgin Atlantic which they claim is headed by a non flying "captain" who commands little respect from the majority of the pilots.
With the managements stated aim that it will not negotiate "terms and conditions", in clear breach of the recognition agreement, in the upcoming pay negotiations in a month or so, the current ballot is likely to be a rude awakening considering the resolve of the pilots to draw a line in the sand over weak management where the easy path to confrontation is the norm rather than the more difficult but rewarding path to co-operation.
As pointed out by one of the pilots who paraphrased Sir Richard Branson - "Losing My Virginity" (first edition) p 466: "I'm not opposed to unions in principle, but, surely, it's the ultimate expression of management incompetence when a company has to communicate with its workforce via a third party [a union]".
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tracey Island
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SGC,
As pointed out by one of the pilots who paraphrased Sir Richard Branson - "Losing My Virginity" (first edition) p 466: "I'm not opposed to unions in principle, but, surely, it's the ultimate expression of management incompetence when a company has to communicate with its workforce via a third party [a union]".
As pointed out by one of the pilots who paraphrased Sir Richard Branson - "Losing My Virginity" (first edition) p 466: "I'm not opposed to unions in principle, but, surely, it's the ultimate expression of management incompetence when a company has to communicate with its workforce via a third party [a union]".
Of course the ultimate expression of management incompetence is thinking that communication and negotiation are the same thing.
RB is no different to MOL in his attitudes only in his deliverance of those attitudes.
No doubt that what is happening at VA comes from the very top via Sycophants who know what they are doing but don't really care.
Again, good luck to the pilots....
Last edited by call100; 22nd Aug 2010 at 22:23.
Also, the continual jet-lag is very tiring.My experiences with vs were predominantly great and professional pilots/crews doing their best .A JFK was virtually a short haul flight but even that comprised a night flight home and a couple of days to recover. It is hard to convince outsiders that the perceived glamour is actually continual fatigue,room service and attempting to recover between flights.It cannot be realistically compared to an office job -like most pilot jobs in fact -but the time zone changes take it all to a new level.Good luck to the chaps/esses.
Guest
Posts: n/a
HO, Many thanks for your concise yet complete answer.
In a strange way I think the recent threat of IA from BAA union members, which included RFFS and Ops shows the way. BAA management had extracted more and more from less and less over a number of years and clearly thought they could go on ad in finitum. Although the vote was marginal, middle management lost courage and batted the problem up all the way to Spain.
The fact that the ACAS talks lasted but a day and quickly reached an amicable
settlement should give VS some comfort.
I hope you and your colleagues take a stand as I'm sure, given the facts presented here, you will prevail.
Best wishes
Sir George Cayley
In a strange way I think the recent threat of IA from BAA union members, which included RFFS and Ops shows the way. BAA management had extracted more and more from less and less over a number of years and clearly thought they could go on ad in finitum. Although the vote was marginal, middle management lost courage and batted the problem up all the way to Spain.
The fact that the ACAS talks lasted but a day and quickly reached an amicable
settlement should give VS some comfort.I hope you and your colleagues take a stand as I'm sure, given the facts presented here, you will prevail.
Best wishes
Sir George Cayley
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: london
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VA Pilot dispute
We are talking about a union that is a business, a business that relies on members for its survival and now is demonstrating more cynical practices than the companies that its members work for. Surely, the VA pilots who fly 750 hours per year ( the lowest in the industry). in the coolest airline on the planet. This has to be more about the desperate death throes of an union that is an irrelevance in the 21st century, but which cynically spins disputes to justify its existence.
From someone totally on the pilots side...
From someone totally on the pilots side...
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tracey Island
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmmm didn't think it would be long before someone came up with the rubbish that it's the 'Union'. For once can it not be understood, the members are the Union. If the Pilots -The Union - want to accept the appalling behaviour of VA then they will vote against IA. The 'Union' will abide by that vote....Some people are really ignorant when it comes to IA ballots.....
Or - judging by the language - is this the first of the management plants on the subject?!!
Or - judging by the language - is this the first of the management plants on the subject?!!
Plumbum Pendular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 55
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BALPA has something like an 80% membership, way higher than any other Union in the Country. It is not an irrelevance at all.
In fact it is Company Council/Member led so to say that this is a "union that is an irrelevance in the 21st century, but which cynically spins disputes to justify its existence." is utter rubbish, it just doesn't work like that in BALPA.
In fact in another dispute a few years ago the Union was very wary of allowing a Company Council to run an IA Ballot, which ended up being one of the best results in the Union history.
Good luck to you VA guys, our Profession is constantly under threat and we need to take a stand less we should all end up paying for our own transport and HOTAC, not being provided with even water let alone crew food..........
In fact it is Company Council/Member led so to say that this is a "union that is an irrelevance in the 21st century, but which cynically spins disputes to justify its existence." is utter rubbish, it just doesn't work like that in BALPA.
In fact in another dispute a few years ago the Union was very wary of allowing a Company Council to run an IA Ballot, which ended up being one of the best results in the Union history.
Good luck to you VA guys, our Profession is constantly under threat and we need to take a stand less we should all end up paying for our own transport and HOTAC, not being provided with even water let alone crew food..........
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it just me or has this subject gone suspiciously quiet in the media? The BBC, Sky News, CNN etc are all not reporting it but the smaller media groups are. Maybe I just have a suspicious mind but perhaps Branson sent some brown envelopes to the news companies to keep this quiet after seeing what happened with BA and their strikes.
Like the majority of people on this thread I am 100% behind the pilots; it’s good to see some people in the profession who are fighting back against the slide in T&Cs which are so frequently ranted about here.
Like the majority of people on this thread I am 100% behind the pilots; it’s good to see some people in the profession who are fighting back against the slide in T&Cs which are so frequently ranted about here.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I can gather, the Balpa monthly meeting is to take place tomorrow. So as an interested member of the public, how likely is it that a ballot will take place tomorrow? And if the ballot was to confirm IA how soon would this be likely to be to take place?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I can gather, the Balpa monthly meeting is to take place tomorrow. So as an interested member of the public, how likely is it that a ballot will take place tomorrow? And if the ballot was to confirm IA how soon would this be likely to be to take place?
Am selfishly hoping for a delay to the ballot or a voting period of a fortnight!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks for the reply MR7958. Thats very useful information as Im due to fly VA to Orlando 4th September for a fortnight. Guess I might have to prepare for a delay home if the ballot is called and action voted for. Im pulled in two directions as I believe that if the facts are as reported above the pilots have every right to put a stop to their T +A's being eroded and would support their action. But I also would have two very disappointed little girls who wont get to see Micky for the first time after a long anticipation period so I also have a selfish interest! Hope things get corrected before it becomes necessary to take IA.
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a dispute about a Company not adhering to an industrial agreement. The members are the Union, the Union does the members' bidding, and the Union is conducting the procedure. In VS, the strength of feeling amongst the pilots has been grossly underestimated by the management. IMHO, this will lead to a ballot for IA, the timescale for which is unknown.
HO raised an issue of personal improprieties. I fail to see the relevance to the dispute; I don't wish to sound pious, but perhaps such titillating sideshows should be kept out of the debate?
HO raised an issue of personal improprieties. I fail to see the relevance to the dispute; I don't wish to sound pious, but perhaps such titillating sideshows should be kept out of the debate?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Horsham, England
Age: 58
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely, the VA pilots who fly 750 hours per year ( the lowest in the industry). in the coolest airline on the planet
Apart from the odd inane comment (such as Dekkard's), it is heartening to see the overall support for our fight. I fear that this is only the thin end of a very big wedge ! If VAA management 'win' on this one it will be the start of an inexorable slide towards T&C's on a par with Ryanair !
In one of Heavy Operator's excellent postings he states.....
It is all very well the "ignoranti" harping on about how lucky those pilots are having so much time off. The pilots and anyone else who has at least a basic understanding of what permanent long-haul flying is about will know that not knowing what days you will be working more than six weeks ahead, can and does have serious consequences on your home life.
Our BALPA reps also had to fight off an attempt to impose a totally inappropriate sickness policy on the pilots. It had been cobbled together as a generic policy to tackle percieved sickness issues amongst another group of staff in another part of the company (something to do with Wimbledon fortnight I believe). The reps asked for statistics from HR and when they eventually appeared, even alowing for two or three days off not flying due to colds (as per the ANO), pilot sickness levels were well below national all industry averages and well below the company average. The highest sickness levels were in the HR department. Probably wearing themselves out worrying about imposing pointless policies and trying to win futile battels with BALPA reps.
The reps also had to waste a lot of time attempting to explain to the HR people that pilot sickness averages looked higher than would be expected because as in all airlines a small number of pilots were on long term sick grounded by the CAA.
Some were perfectly well to work on the ground doing project work, but the company chose to keep them at home so that their sick pay ran out more quickly. Once long term grounding sickness figures were taken out of the equation, the pilot sickness levels were extremely low.
Generally, pilots just dont go sick unless they really have to. It probably has something to do with underlying professionalism and not wanting to drop collegues in it and I can''t imagine it is any different at VA.
Even if VA pilot sicness levels are higher, this is probably just down to the nature of a Longhaul only opearation and the last minute need to withdraw from trips at the onset of an illness.
The reps also had to waste a lot of time attempting to explain to the HR people that pilot sickness averages looked higher than would be expected because as in all airlines a small number of pilots were on long term sick grounded by the CAA.
Some were perfectly well to work on the ground doing project work, but the company chose to keep them at home so that their sick pay ran out more quickly. Once long term grounding sickness figures were taken out of the equation, the pilot sickness levels were extremely low. Generally, pilots just dont go sick unless they really have to. It probably has something to do with underlying professionalism and not wanting to drop collegues in it and I can''t imagine it is any different at VA.
Even if VA pilot sicness levels are higher, this is probably just down to the nature of a Longhaul only opearation and the last minute need to withdraw from trips at the onset of an illness.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: England
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We must all realise that the industry is going through a difficult patch at the moment. However, management have to realise that the key to an efficient organisation, that is respected and revered for its service, is to have a happy workforce. I draw a parallel to the military where it is well known that happy troops are efficient troops and happy troops will put up with all sorts of hardships and go that extra mile. Sadly I am not certain that all the present day troops are happy troops, but that is a different story altogether. In the world of civilian aviation a contented crew will indeed go the extra mile to help out the company when required. They will deliver that extra customer care and attention if they feel that they are being supported correctly by the management. Indeed I have been a part of such an organisation in days gone by. A discontented crew, however, are not likely to do be so responsive if they are unhappy with the company, and the management, and the unjust decisions that affect their contract.
My experience of the airline industry is that many of the “management” personnel are lacking in the required attributes required for such positions and in several cases have reached their status by who they know rather than what they know. In addition many do not have the basic management skills to carry out their jobs effectively. Indeed some I have been associated with do not seem to possess any common sense, which is a basic requirement of management. I can quote an example of my past when a new director came into our company from a much larger organisation where he had been part of the management team. His experience in that larger company had indeed been as a manager, but as a manager of an office and a computer, not as a manager of personnel. After some months, and following a downward spiral of crew morale, I approached the individual to discuss the issue. The incumbent was surprised that moral was diminishing fast and said that as he was happy with his job, he had assumed that everyone else was also happy! This is not a word of a lie. I politely informed him that he needed to leave his office and manage his personnel more effectively.
I am not a member of Virgin, but really hope that the management team wake up to the fact that they could irreparably damage a great airline with what seems like very ill conceived management decisions. Good luck to all the pilots in this fight – there are definitely times in one’s life when principles have to be applied and it seems that this is such a case. I hope you manage to sort out this issue without recourse to further action but if that is the way it has to be then united you should stand.
My experience of the airline industry is that many of the “management” personnel are lacking in the required attributes required for such positions and in several cases have reached their status by who they know rather than what they know. In addition many do not have the basic management skills to carry out their jobs effectively. Indeed some I have been associated with do not seem to possess any common sense, which is a basic requirement of management. I can quote an example of my past when a new director came into our company from a much larger organisation where he had been part of the management team. His experience in that larger company had indeed been as a manager, but as a manager of an office and a computer, not as a manager of personnel. After some months, and following a downward spiral of crew morale, I approached the individual to discuss the issue. The incumbent was surprised that moral was diminishing fast and said that as he was happy with his job, he had assumed that everyone else was also happy! This is not a word of a lie. I politely informed him that he needed to leave his office and manage his personnel more effectively.
I am not a member of Virgin, but really hope that the management team wake up to the fact that they could irreparably damage a great airline with what seems like very ill conceived management decisions. Good luck to all the pilots in this fight – there are definitely times in one’s life when principles have to be applied and it seems that this is such a case. I hope you manage to sort out this issue without recourse to further action but if that is the way it has to be then united you should stand.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would appear that the management at Virgin Atlantic have decided to try, one time too many, to undermine the pilots resolve. After final meetings with the pilots representatives over the last few days, the management team decided that they could not continue the meetings over the weekend or bank holiday Monday (the managements RDOs).
In an attempt (not unexpectedly) to undermine the pilots, the company wrote to all pilots with their interpretation of the situation, in clear breach of the recognition agreement. The earliest they can now meet with the pilots representatives is, according to them, September 6th. This is seen as yet one more attempt by the management to delay and prevaricate. Consequently, the pilots have agreed to ballot for industrial action.
Whilst BALPA have agreed to meet with management on September the 6th as well as at any time in the run up to, during and after any industrial action, the pilots are resolved to put a stop to the current flight operations management megalomaniacal and bullying stance and their disregard for the industrial agreements that are in place. The management earn no respect due to their lack of integrity and continual attempts to undermine the resolve and solidarity of the pilots.
In an attempt (not unexpectedly) to undermine the pilots, the company wrote to all pilots with their interpretation of the situation, in clear breach of the recognition agreement. The earliest they can now meet with the pilots representatives is, according to them, September 6th. This is seen as yet one more attempt by the management to delay and prevaricate. Consequently, the pilots have agreed to ballot for industrial action.
Whilst BALPA have agreed to meet with management on September the 6th as well as at any time in the run up to, during and after any industrial action, the pilots are resolved to put a stop to the current flight operations management megalomaniacal and bullying stance and their disregard for the industrial agreements that are in place. The management earn no respect due to their lack of integrity and continual attempts to undermine the resolve and solidarity of the pilots.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following Heavy Operator's last post, does anyone have any more firm information about where VS and BALPA stand? In particular, do we know if the seven days' notice of a ballot has been given?
My reason for asking, as set out in an earlier post, is selfish but it does seem that the pilots are being treated shabbily by management.
My reason for asking, as set out in an earlier post, is selfish but it does seem that the pilots are being treated shabbily by management.