Flybe Terms and Conditions

[Caractacus]

. . . the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan.

You could tar a large part of British Airways with the same comment!

[Sinbad_633]

If all of the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan.

Well I may be in my first flying job and not qualified to moan, but at least I am prepared to work towards improvements in T&Cs.

Some questions I will ask to the experienced pilots of many years:

During the steady erosion of T&Cs over the past decade did you moan?
When airlines started demanding that people pay for type ratings did you moan?
When pay to fly started and the right hand seat became the most lucrative on the aircraft did you moan?
When airlines started classifying employees as contractors only to get around employment laws did you moan?

I suppose the above attitude was the one that prevailed during the last pay deal at flybe when the starting salary of FOs was cut in order to increase the other pay scales.

Divide et impera.

[PaulW]

Funny I thought we all had ATPLs and we were a known quantity and expect to be paid for the license that we hold. If you fly for any of the regional operators flying a turbo-prop, you compare what the term and conditions are with each company. A companies business model is irrelevent, I expect to be re-imbursed to an acceptable level, no matter whether I fly oil riggers, newspapers, rock bands, pop groups and premiership football teams or that scratch cards are sold in the cabin. Using 5 rings method to work out who is a real airline, then Flybe have got it good as they are the lowcost operator and it is then Flybe should earn less than the other carriers, but thats not the way the world works.
If its aircraft type thats the issue then Air Southwests dash8-2s are flown by Wideroe and they earn a princely sum, for an "old" turbo-prop. If its about flying an advanced turbo-prop then your sadly mistaken if a dash8-400 is the most advanced civil turbo-prop out there. To a company a turbo-prop is a turbo-prop end of, your no better trained, qualified or more deserving than any other turbo-prop pilot for a pay rise, we all deserve one.
5rings ones head needs to be pulled from ones arse, if you think other turbo-prop operators somehow dont qualify for comparison by Flybe management. You fly a turbo-prop no matter how embarrasing that may be for you. No matter how much you close your eyes you dont fly a 737 or an a320, if you think you can compare wages with operators operating these aircraft types.

Sorry that may sound harsh but you had that coming.

[Desk-pilot]

The E170/195

Guys, nobody is ungrateful to Flybe for giving people the chance to achieve this career, providing a bonded type rating and some excellent experience. Neither is anyone suggesting that a turboprop pilot should expect to earn as much as a jet pilot (even if many might argue that a turboprop can be harder to fly). However there are two different issues here:

1. Flybe is moving away from its provincial turboprop roots and becoming a significant pan-European jet operator and major player in the industry. Its pilots fully support the company's lofty ambitions but don't appreciate being taken for fools with a pay freeze last yr, a 0.3% pay rise this year and a complete lack of engagement in BALPA's attempts to improve quality of life here.

2. Having ordered a huge pile of jets the company is now trying to combine the jet and turboprop salaries at the turboprop rate in order to avoid having too many people on the jet scales (which incidentally are low compared to others out there anyway). I would argue that a 195 pilot deserves to be paid the same as an Airbus 319 pilot in Easy but they are about £15k less than that.

This company is becoming a force to be reckoned with - that's for sure, but the their obsession with rostering for maximum working days and ignorance of pay norms is causing many to look elsewhere, and that is rather sad.

Desk-pilot

[mad_bob]

Desk Pilot,
Couldn't agree more....

[5 RINGS]

PaulW,

Flybe has successfully navigated trough the financial storm asking its workforce to take a pay freeze, requested for volunteers for overseas contracts etc.

The business is profitable unlike many competitors included jet ones.

The workforce has played its role in this success and must now be rewarded.

I don't have any chip on my shoulder flying a TP simply because it's more hard work than a jet and you get to handfly it more and more often.

Finally Flybe shifts more passenger on the British domestic market. This leadership has to reflect on the payscale.

[JB007]

Desk Pilot, excellent points. I wish you guys all the best...especially considering what i've just paid to fly LGW-IOM!

[Tinytim]

Striking at FlyBe will produce nothing.

Hear, hear!

It is painful to say "I told you so.........." but those of us who got the hell out saw all this coming.

One look at the nature of the CEO was all it took to convince me.

You will never be able to successfully agitate for change because too many of your colleagues....for whatever reason.... are a spineless bunch who are content to accept mediocrity, short term gain and exploitation as an acceptable lifestyle.

I well remember when Flybe and BA Connect merged there was then an opportunity to insist that a proper scheduling agreement be carried into the new combined operation as well as a number of other essential safegaurds. A one off £3000 bribe was all it took to secure compliance.................and arent you all paying the price now?

As the man says.....those of you who can...get out.

TT

[Serenity]

Royston, know exactly what you mean, exeter regional thinking hopes we will do it all for the love of it, Flybe are light years behind other airlines currently!!
Like the sound of your planet!!

[Farfrompuken]

Royston,

FOUR sectors a day??!

HAVING to chase up fuel??!

COLD flightdeck??!

I amazed it hasn't hit the front page of the daily mail:

"Passengers terror as Biggles forced to find fuel to fly in winter"

bless.

[six-sixty]

. A one off £3000 agreement be carried into the new combined operation as well as a number of other essen. A one off £3000 bribe was all it took to secure compliance.................and arent you all paying the price now?

Superficially true. The difference was that the then cc caved in on our behalf without consulting us. A lot of people never forgave them and more would probably be members now had they handled it differently. Now we have a different cc and a realisation that we HAVE to fight and stand our ground. Apart from anything else the world has moved on and moving to the rhs of a jet in another co is no longer an option, for reasons well documented on other threads. flybe can't rely on the mass exoduses of the past to clear out the "wingers". We ain't going anywhere...there's nowhere to go!

[Burpbot]

I think you will find the £3000 was deposited into bank accounts without knowledge! Then a nice letter was received saying you have received a payment to compensate you for your reduction in terms and conditions. We had no choice! All but those who were leaving would gladly have handed the money back and kept are terms and conditions!

But a typical example of effective divide and conquer! Come on guys stick together and lets work towards making Flybe an airline people aspire to join! It surely makes sense for both employer and employee to both be happy??????

[G SXTY]

A cynical observer might suggest that a high turnover of FOs in particular, rather suits Flybe management. New FOs are cheaper than experienced ones, they are bonded, and are more likely to accept whatever Ts & Cs are thrown at them. If experienced people leave as soon as there are jobs elsewhere, big deal, they can be replaced easily and cheaply. Witness the steady stream of cadets, both internal and TCX, and moving the sims to the new training centre at EXT. It all points to an operation designed to train up lots of people, and quickly.

Frankly, I can't see any incentive whatsoever for the company to improve pay and rostering, unless they are forced to do so. 'Negotiations' – if that's the right word, have been going on for a long, long time, and have got us precisely nowhere.

It's all a pity, as I'd quite like to stay long-term – IF my salary and lifestyle were more in line with our competitors. Sadly though, I increasingly believe our management have no interest in serious negotiation, so like many of my colleagues, I'll be brushing up my CV when the time comes.

[Chesty Morgan]

Dunno G60, can they cope with:

- 195 command courses (one sim at Gatwick, none at the training centre afaik), plenty of 195 bods either leaving imminently or actively looking
- 195 type rating courses
- Q400 command courses
- Q400 type rating courses
- And tripling of the jet fleet over 3 years

All at the same time? Doubtful in my mind.

And there is an awful lot of people wanting to leave, more than I've heard of in the last 11 years. Flybe needs to seriously sort themselves out very quickly.

[Iver]

Are pilots with a decent amount of E195 time (either Capt or FO) getting looks from the LCCs and ME carriers like Emirates, Etihad and Qatar? Does having that E195 time help if you are looking elsewhere (even if you only have FO time)?

[G SXTY]

Yep, one colleague with E195 time is off to the sandpit imminently.

[Serenity]

There's more than one already!!!!

[Toastal]

Sympathy for your pain

Guys,

I agree with most of what's being put on here, and despite not working for the company, but having MANY friends that do, I have a couple of things to say.......

1. 140 new jet orders
2. Potential floatation in the next while
3. possible upturn in the job market
4. Air France/KLM codeshares
5. Taking your NI contributions
6. **** money for doing effectively regional jet/ Euro jet routes but happen to fly turo-props on said **** salary
7. Ridiculous scheduling agreement
8. Embarrassing pay rise


You all need to sort this NOW. Get behind your crew council and don't settle for a penny less than you're worth. My company ended up giving us a pay rise and a life-style agreement, after the threat to strike. Many had no intention of striking, but the threat was enough, especially with a company like this, who wants potential investors to buy in soon (not keen if there's an unhappy workforce).

There is no better time to do this than NOW. If you can't sort out the T&Cs this time round, then it'll never happen again with Flybe. Company won't care if you work to rule, don't save fuel, work into discretion, go that extra mile? Bo##ocks, they'll sit up and listen!!

Not meaning to kiss ass or blow smoke, but you guys are overworked and under paid for the job that you do in this industry, and it needs to end.

T

[PAPI-74]

I am in the same boat with someone else. The fact is, you fly a TP with a limited earning potential on short hops with about 78 pax, not a 320/737 150+ pax all buying stuff and on a package holiday.

You don't earn them enough £££ to pay you anymore; it is that simple.
Keep learning and get out when you can. Job done!

[JB007]

Aeromaniac:

PAPI-74 is spot on - why do people keep thinking FlyBe is going to start paying what a B737/B757/A320 operator is paying...this world has never been like that!!!!