The solution?

[FANS]

1) BALPA approved flightcrew

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your Captain XXX speaking and I'd like to welcome you aboard etc.

Finally, I am pleased to confirm that this flight has a BALPA approved flightcrew."

Corresponding adverts in all newspapers articulating what a BALPA approved flight crew is and how it is geared to ultimate flight safety of pax and their families. It would be flightcrew on e.g. greater than min.wage; no upfront TR payments; no P2f etc ; selection on merit etc. and how this is imperative for safety and it is not about making pilots rich (which is often the perception).

It would also articulate that only those carriers meeting the above would add BALPA approved flightcrew in the captain's initial address; I'm sure such carriers would have no objection to allowing this.

Flyers would also be handed out at airports by you on your days off, which also allows SLF to ask questions and you to properly explain P2f etc.

It would then be once in the aircraft with doors locked that many people do not hear those words "BALPA approved flightcrew" and spend the flight worrying, and then consider whether it's worth the cost saving, especially when they've just received the flyer after check-in.


2) Good examples of airmanship and educating the public about how you save lives

SLF thinks you do nothing but press buttons. People need to hear about all the good work you guys do every day, which averts issues and makes for greater safety, rather than just the AAIB reports when things don't work. Quarterly awards to raise the profile.

3) Be more pro-active

This p2f situation is bordering on the crazy and I can't believe how far T&Cs have generally fallen, with no real response; the public not aware etc; CAA view? Equally to those airlines that are more reasonable, it makes it very tricky internally to justify the company paying TR/wages etc. when Micky's making a profit out of the RHS!

It could be like the banking crisis - everybody thought cheap credit (cheap tickets) was normal, that they'd be no crash (safety), internal risk reviews were watered down (as bonuses went up) and then after the crash, everyone's completely amazed by what went on.

[hollingworthp]

OR (and much more likely) Balpa will do sweet F.A. as per usual.

[stansdead]

FANS

Frankly, one of the most stupid and pointless loads of drivel I have ever heard of.

A BALPA approved flightcrew?

The reason we are in this mess is because "Joe Public" wants cheap flights. Therefore, unless we start seeing daily crashes of Ryan, Easy, Wizz, Baby etc, then the public think it's safe to fly. And you know what? They are right.

Why should I, as a non BALPA member submit my details to the drones in Harlesden to approve my background? Get real.

Don't get me wrong, I used to be a BALPA rep for a short while in a UK airline. I have worked for TCX and VS in the past. I am now in Europe as an A320 Captain and I do a LOT of flying in and out of Luton. Why the hell should I, or anyone else demean myself whilst carrying out a PA to the pax?

Most couldn't give a sh1t about anything other than cost. As I already said, your argument about safety doesn't add up. Simply put, the evil loco's haven't had any accidents. Yet. Until they do, don't hold your breath.

Add to this that the public think that we are all overpaid anyway...... BALPA?? Who the heck are BALPA is what most holidaymakers/ Polish migrants/ average families think.

I sympathise with those who can't afford to pay for a rating. You shouldn't have to do it. But, let me tell you this: Without doubt, the young FO's who I fly with are very good. Even those who paid for a rating. Some of the 55+ year old FO's I fly with on the other hand are bleedin' awful. That's why they are 55 and FO's still.

The only way the P2F scourge will stop is by a serious upturn in all economies. And that is not happening for another few years.

[Caudillo]

A frankly absurd idea, FANS.

If you think that the public - already deserting Fair-Trade and free range in their droves and about to get hit by austerity unknown since their births - are going to give a monkeys about some arcane dispute involving white male middle-class trainspotters, then you may have another thing coming.

Capt. Sunshine your argument seems a bit self-defeating..

Although I have no doubt that if a P2F pilot is signed off to the line, he/she is as qualified and safe as someone whose airlines has paid for the rating, I think that the practice is immoral and therefore must be stopped before it becomes the norm.

So they're perfectly safe are they? So we're going for the sympathy vote instead? And we have no issue with the individuals themselves, right? So will the captain be able to declare to the rapt audience that he alone is kitemarked with the seal of approval? How will this play as regards CRM?

Presumably though since it's the principle of the thing, then we'd only be able to give the farm-reared gold star to flightcrews who are in BALPA, and those whose airlines don't engage in this practice? Would other BALPA members in the other airlines not resent being tarred with the battery-hen brush?

Possible slogan: "Would you let a surgeon have your life in their hands if they weren't being paid? .... Why then would you let a pilot?"

Poor slogan, you pre-empt the answer. I couldn't care less, as long as he doesn't injure me. If you want to make people actually listen, how about you make them aware of they're actually paying for?

"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome on board yada yada yada - I've been up since 4am, managed 5 hours of sleep last night, and by the time we arrive at our destination I'll have been working 11 hours solid. 3 hours longer than even a bus or HGV driver is allowed. Do enjoy your flight."

[A320rider]

we just have to wait that 2 planes collide over london, and they will discover everybody on bord was paying for their HOBBY!!!
the public will start to ask some questions? (why?, how it's possible?, no way!, scandalous!, I didn't know that!really?, who is the idiot who pay to work?)

it's just a question of time...

[joe two]

Anyway , unfortunately , the pay to fly or any derivative is BALPA approved (yep they're great).

whadoyaknow ?

[stansdead]

A320 Rider

What the heck are you going on about?

If 2 airliners crash over London, is it likely to be caused by a P2F cadet? Hardly, I suspect. Are these people so hopeless they can't turn a heading knob correctly? Are they so useless that ATC would miss an oncoming collision?

Get real. You make any argument you may have totally worthless by debasing it to such an unsubstantiated load of crap.

There are numerous safeguards against a P2F disaster (even though I don't agree with the practice of P2F at all), and they are:

1) Training;
2) Standards;
3) SOP's;
4) CRM;
5) Captains, and;
6) Common sense.

Just because P2F stinks (and it does) doesn't mean that an accident is just around the corner. Especially not a scenario as fantastically ridiculous as the one you describe.

If you want people to listen to the diagnosis of a spreading Cancer, I suggest you talk like an experienced Consultant Oncologist, and not some crazy Voodoo Witchdoctor.

[Mungo Man]

Flyers would also be handed out at airports by you on your days off, which also allows SLF to ask questions and you to properly explain P2f etc.

If you think I'm going back to the airport on my days off you can stuff it where the sun doesn't shine!! The only question SLF and friends ever ask me is " Have you ever crashed?" and "Do you ever get scared?"

[northern boy]

I sympathise with those who can't afford to pay for a rating. You shouldn't have to do it. But, let me tell you this: Without doubt, the young FO's who I fly with are very good. Even those who paid for a rating. Some of the 55+ year old FO's I fly with on the other hand are bleedin' awful. That's why they are 55 and FO's still.


Speaking as a 50+ FO, and also ex VS thank you very much, I rather resent the implication that I am useless. Ever heard of the seniority system? you need good luck and good timing to get a command, ability comes second to date of joining.

You seem to have both, good for you. Some of us have had sh*t luck since day one. Please think before issuing blanket condemnations.

[Firestorm]

BALPA Approved is synonymous with paying for your own type rating, and paying to be in one of the two front seats of a medium to heavy jet airliner in the 21st Century.

Back to you FANS.

[Mercenary Pilot]

'They' are not 'us'.

Proud NOT to be BALPA approved.

They are part of the problem, not the solution.

*Do they still advertise self funded type ratings and P2F schemes in 'The Log'? (appropriate title for that over glossy publication btw).

*Hasn't this subject been done to death already?

*Rhetorical questions: the answer to both is yes.

[Fingersmac]

Just because P2F stinks (and it does) doesn't mean that an accident is just around the corner.

It's already happened in the US. The captain of Colgan 3407, first officer of Comair 5191 and both pilots of Pinnacle 3701 all trained at Gulfstream Training Academy. Don't let the name fool you, it only offers what essentially amounts to a P2F scheme.

[A320rider]

it doesn't matter if the P2F pilot is good or not...

when an accident will happen, and they discover it was a P2F cockpit, the company will be sued, and it 's going to hurt...

it s going to be everywhere, news, newspapers, TV, radio, internet.

"yesterday,a pilot lost control of his aircraft, killing 150 people on board, and 200 on ground, this pilot was not employed by the company, he was a "student pilot" with 200 hours who purchased 500h by the airline"

again, it' s just a question of time that the next plane crashes... and it could be a P2F this time! and when it will happen, I can promise you, P2F will be eradicated from this planet!!!


it 's proven that when you pay to fly, you make more mistakes...
you brain doesn't think professionally and is prone to errors.

[Dr Eckener]

With solutions like that, you should join BP. What has this site become?

[stansdead]

Northern Boy???

Northern Boy old fruit. What are you going on about?

I know you are ex VS. So am I....

I have never flown with you. I'm not making blanket condemnations, I'm stating a FACT. The young guys I fly with are generally far better than the old ones. I'm not going to debate it with you, it's my opinion, also that of other Captains. Most importantly, it's also the opinion of my company. That's why these guys are still FO's........

I remember when you left VS, you said it was because you hated the job. Sure, you may have never made Command in VS at over 50 years old and an FO. But, your luck hasn't always been sh1t. You got into.... and left one of the best employers in the UK. As did I.

I guess the only difference - and the sh1t luck is what has happened afterwards for you. For that, I sympathise. But stop being so precious.

[767200ER]

The worrying thing here is the tone of some of the posts... it sounds as though you are willing an airliner to crash just so you can say "i told you so".

I would only hope one of your loved ones isn't on board

[Callsign Kilo]

In all honesty northern boy, I don't believe stansdead was issuing a 'blanket comment' so to speak. As you correctly imply, our lives in aviation are mostly dictated by our timing and circumstance. Luck will always have large part to play. However, speaking purely in terms of lo-cos, I would tend to agree with stansdead. With the rates of expansion that the likes of Easy, Ryan, Wizz, Air Berlin etc have encountered in the last 5 or more years, opportunities to make the left hand seat have been plentiful. Obviously particular lo-cos have had a greater demand than others, however in terms of my airline, once the pre-requist JAR25 time has been met and the required standard/grading is achieved during line checks, recurrent sim training and checking, then each FO has had a crack at the command course. Many fail, mostly due to lack of preparation; however a close second reason is largely down to ability. Keeping this is mind and to concur with stansdead, many of the older FOs at our lot have had a few shots at the command. They aren't being failed because of their age, i can assure you because if you are good enough you will pass. And before you can accuse me of generalising, there are a number of examples of our more 'mature' FOs making the grade when opportunity knocked.

[northern boy]

Callsign Kilo,

I'm not having a go at Stanstead or anyone else. I have never been given the chance to have a go at command, that's just the way it is. Redundancy, recessions and a mistimed move have seen to that. Forgive me for sounding a bit sensitive but the attitude that once over 50 you remain in the right seat due to inability or being stuck in your ways is a little hard to swallow when coming from one who was fortunate enough to land in the right place at the right time, and yes I'm sure he has plenty of ability. For all I know I might make an utter boll*cks of an assessment in which case the failure would be all mine. I would like the chance to find out though, before I am pensioned off after 30 years in the RHS. The way things are and will probably remain, that ain't gonna happen.

If that makes me "precious" then the same must go for all the 50+ FO's in British airways, Virgin (there are a few) Thomsonfly and all the US majors. All of them will have the same or more ability and experience as guy they sit next to, they would all love a go and are all trapped by their date of joining.

Maybe some of them would like to comment.

Nasty old business this aviation isn't it? Perhaps someone should mention it to the p2f brigade.

[411A]

BALPA is a toothless tiger, and always will be.
Disbandment would be a good idea.

[stansdead]

Northern Boy,

I am sorry that you have been stuck in the RHS. It is sh1t I know.

Look, let me reiterate again.... my remark relates very much to the individuals I fly with in a single base with 6 airplanes in a single company with 35 or so airplanes.

I am NOT having a go at over 50 y.o. FO's in general, I'm just saying to you what I find every day when I go to work.

P2F sucks, we all know that. But, ultimately most of these guys pass TRTO courses, base training, line checks/training and various other things before being allowed to scare very average Captains like me. From what I've seen, none of them are dangerous. The ones that are get chopped.

As for the older guys, well their situations are all different. But, they all have common traits: lack of understanding of modern FMC based airplanes, loss of SA when the sh1t hits the fan due to my first example etc etc.

The young guys are good technically, are keen to learn (mainly) and often are willing to listen. Sadly, some of our older guys do not want to do any of the latter and on a modern machine, such as an Airbus A3xx will, given the chance, get themselves and everyone else into serious trouble if not adequately supervised.

The young guys will easily make mistakes, but they have less to prejudge them on, so tend to be more cautious and less punchy.


Genuinely, I'm sorry things haven't worked out SO FAR for you. There is still time. Good luck.