Astraeus A320 Contracts
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Sorry if you chaps are offended by my take on Astraeus - I can only say that I stand by my view. I fully understand the need to take a rubbish job when times are hard - and the Astraeus contract, good folks of the airline fraternity, is a really rubbish job.
As a little aside, may I direct you all to this excellent but disturbing video from the BBC - that is where we are heading and I think we should see it as a warning. Have a look and make your own minds up:
BBC NEWS | Programmes | World News America | Mobile homes for pilots
As a little aside, may I direct you all to this excellent but disturbing video from the BBC - that is where we are heading and I think we should see it as a warning. Have a look and make your own minds up:
BBC NEWS | Programmes | World News America | Mobile homes for pilots
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NSF
My personal view is that Astraeus are a two-bit company with two-bit management whose possible success is a threat to our whole industry.
Remember Norman, it's all relative as you yourself work for yet another 'two bit low-cost airline' which exploits it's employees with cadet/TRSS schemes, seasonal commands, lousy crew food, no private health care, pay for your own uniform, direct entry captains (like you Norman!), different contracts for different bases, and the list goes on. All that in order to desperately gain market share from normal airlines like KLM/Air France, BA, Lufthansa and Iberia by undercutting their costs and prices. So, who's a treat to whom here?
Finally you've seen the light, namely something that I've been saying for a long time: it IS a race to the bottom. But it's also a race that YOU are actively a part of by spreading that 'everything is great here' Orange religion/propaganda.
Sure, you can keep your company's dirty laundry safely tucked away on a private forum and even invite EZY management to spread it's propaganda there, but out in the real world people look through that ultra thin layer of shiny orange veneer.
So go ahead Norman, keep calling the kettle black!
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NSF - you are entitled to your opinion, however basically what you are saying is that you wish Aeu's employees to be out of a job.Now that is really bad form: I would never wish ill on anybody's livelihood.
As for the pay I don't imagine £70k will see anyone living in a mobile home (how many ex wives do you have ?), and anyway is it not your lot who take a £1000 a year from your salaries for crew food ?
Pot kettle black.
As for the pay I don't imagine £70k will see anyone living in a mobile home (how many ex wives do you have ?), and anyway is it not your lot who take a £1000 a year from your salaries for crew food ?
Pot kettle black.
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fade to grey - always best to read what is said rather than what is not. No one wants Astraeus's employees to be out of a job. What people want is for Astraeus's employees to have a top job - it currently is not and that is no one's interests other than a few key managers/owners. Regarding ex-wives, sorry to disappoint - I am 50 next month, have known my lovely wife since I was 19 and there has never been anyone else. All very boring but there you have it.
Rainboe - toxic as you say. Sorry you had a bad flight with easyJet - cannot imagine any other airline on this earth ever having a miscalculation with over-selling at any time. We must be the only airline who has ever had that happen to them. I daresay we have all had our difficult moments with individual airlines, but wiser people than you or I would probably not base their entire opinion on a bad flight. Once again it always best to respond to what is said rather than what is not. No one is saying easyJet is perfect - we have our battles going on behind the scenes like many other airlines right now. What I am saying is that the Astraeus A320 contract is rubbish - if you are unable to see that then we will have to disagree.
Doug the Head - take a chill pill mate. You are becoming a sad bloke. My advice to you is just go. Leave the easyJet you hate, the people like me you despise, the colleagues that drive you nuts, the managers you loathe. It is so easy - just contact Astraeus and they will undoubtedly give you that job of your dreams. Then you can do as many have before you and look out at the Orange hoardes taking over Gatwick and rant forth about them. Sadly, like numerous others who have left in anger and resentment, you may find the world outside easyJet a darker place than the promised land it seems at the moment. When you then try to return, as so many do, the door will be firmly closed behind you. But as I say, you hate every aspect of life at easyJet - you owe it to yourself to get a job anywhere else you can.
As for me, I actually am mightily glad to be working for easyJet right now. Is it the best airline in the world? Absolutely not. Does it offer the best money? Absolutely not. Is it secure? As secure as any airline I know of. We are all taking part in a game of 'Musical Chairs' - the name of the game is to be on the strongest chair when the music stops. Right now the music has well and truly stopped and the easyJet chair looks decidedly inviting right now from where I sit.
Rainboe - toxic as you say. Sorry you had a bad flight with easyJet - cannot imagine any other airline on this earth ever having a miscalculation with over-selling at any time. We must be the only airline who has ever had that happen to them. I daresay we have all had our difficult moments with individual airlines, but wiser people than you or I would probably not base their entire opinion on a bad flight. Once again it always best to respond to what is said rather than what is not. No one is saying easyJet is perfect - we have our battles going on behind the scenes like many other airlines right now. What I am saying is that the Astraeus A320 contract is rubbish - if you are unable to see that then we will have to disagree.
Doug the Head - take a chill pill mate. You are becoming a sad bloke. My advice to you is just go. Leave the easyJet you hate, the people like me you despise, the colleagues that drive you nuts, the managers you loathe. It is so easy - just contact Astraeus and they will undoubtedly give you that job of your dreams. Then you can do as many have before you and look out at the Orange hoardes taking over Gatwick and rant forth about them. Sadly, like numerous others who have left in anger and resentment, you may find the world outside easyJet a darker place than the promised land it seems at the moment. When you then try to return, as so many do, the door will be firmly closed behind you. But as I say, you hate every aspect of life at easyJet - you owe it to yourself to get a job anywhere else you can.
As for me, I actually am mightily glad to be working for easyJet right now. Is it the best airline in the world? Absolutely not. Does it offer the best money? Absolutely not. Is it secure? As secure as any airline I know of. We are all taking part in a game of 'Musical Chairs' - the name of the game is to be on the strongest chair when the music stops. Right now the music has well and truly stopped and the easyJet chair looks decidedly inviting right now from where I sit.
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That may be the case NSF, But I'm damn glad I don't have to sit next to you at work every day. Wanting to see other companies in a depressed industry fail, just to protect your own interests? I think you missed your calling - I suspect the RBS or HBOS board would be a better place for a man of your self centered view of the world.
You may not like the AEU contract on offer, but the fact remains that they are one of the only airlines in the UK making money at the moment and one of the only ones recruiting, both flight and cabin crew at the moment.
Shall we go and work for the great orange ones instead, oh no, because they're not recruiting are they? and haven't done for a long time, and if you think the AEU contract is crap, perhaps you should look closer to home to see what was on offer last time you lot recruited. From my (right hand) seat - it was not worth even applying.
And FWIW - the one time i've travelled as PAX on ezy, my experience wasn't dissimilar to rainboes - wouldn't touch them with someone elses bargepole.
You may not like the AEU contract on offer, but the fact remains that they are one of the only airlines in the UK making money at the moment and one of the only ones recruiting, both flight and cabin crew at the moment.
Shall we go and work for the great orange ones instead, oh no, because they're not recruiting are they? and haven't done for a long time, and if you think the AEU contract is crap, perhaps you should look closer to home to see what was on offer last time you lot recruited. From my (right hand) seat - it was not worth even applying.
And FWIW - the one time i've travelled as PAX on ezy, my experience wasn't dissimilar to rainboes - wouldn't touch them with someone elses bargepole.
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The young overthrow the old Norman.
What started off as a 'low-cost revolution' by companies like easyJet and Ryanair is now repeated by other companies in either their extreme fight for survival or for expansion of market share. Or both. It's exactly the way 'two-bit' airlines like EZY and FR started off 10-15 years ago: by undercutting their competitors.
Just look at T&C's in general in this industry. In the old days you had the full package: benefits, free type rating (perhaps bonding) and good pay. Then came the low-costs and gone was the free type rating and benefits. What was left was just good pay. And now companies like Astraeus are even cutting that paycheck. Why? Simply because they get away with it! just like EZY and FR got away with TRSS and Cadet schemes in the past. So now project that trend vector forward a few years during a recession...
Pandora's box was opened by the low-cost airlines and their loyal and blind supporters, and now people are moaning that they see their T&C's eroded, start screaming about "a threat to the industry" and "if ever there was a time for protecting pay and conditions this was it." It's something I've been hammering on about for years, but people preferred to look the other way.
It's too late now though! The thin edge of the wedge (which once gave EZY pilots an advantage over the established airlines) is in place and is now slowly threatening your paycheck, so don't cry crocodile tears now Norman, just because you fear you might get a taste of your own medicine.
p.s. The grass is greener outside EZY!
What started off as a 'low-cost revolution' by companies like easyJet and Ryanair is now repeated by other companies in either their extreme fight for survival or for expansion of market share. Or both. It's exactly the way 'two-bit' airlines like EZY and FR started off 10-15 years ago: by undercutting their competitors.
Just look at T&C's in general in this industry. In the old days you had the full package: benefits, free type rating (perhaps bonding) and good pay. Then came the low-costs and gone was the free type rating and benefits. What was left was just good pay. And now companies like Astraeus are even cutting that paycheck. Why? Simply because they get away with it! just like EZY and FR got away with TRSS and Cadet schemes in the past. So now project that trend vector forward a few years during a recession...
Pandora's box was opened by the low-cost airlines and their loyal and blind supporters, and now people are moaning that they see their T&C's eroded, start screaming about "a threat to the industry" and "if ever there was a time for protecting pay and conditions this was it." It's something I've been hammering on about for years, but people preferred to look the other way.
It's too late now though! The thin edge of the wedge (which once gave EZY pilots an advantage over the established airlines) is in place and is now slowly threatening your paycheck, so don't cry crocodile tears now Norman, just because you fear you might get a taste of your own medicine.
p.s. The grass is greener outside EZY!
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PPrune is such a fantastic website full of excellent info and it's spoiled by constant ANTAGONISM! It's pathetic. Rainboe and NSF - whether working for easyjet or not, you seem to both be professionals, and as such should know that pouring sarcastic vitriol on an anonymous website is NOT the best use of your time.
I've just joined the industry, and very luckily I have a fab job in a really faltering market. For a brand new FO with relatively little experience, I'm getting good pay too. Personally, the Astraeus contract sounds superficially a bit short on the long term job stability front, and lacks (IN MY OPINION) the image of a good ol' stable, long-term job. That's why I personally wouldn't go for it. The pay is also, it must be said, pretty poor.
But that's NOT to say that people shouldn't - there are far more people far less fortunate than myself and NSF who don't have jobs at all. The original post just wanted info on the contracts, not an argument.
And don't forget what doors to automatic said - BA pays its pilots most handsomely, with lots of priviledges and apparent job stability, and is virtually p1ssing money away and asking its pilots to go to work for nothing.
See? Opinions on getting a job with certain airlines aren't really terribly useful. Just give the guy facts. (which unfortunately I don't have, 'cos I know little about Astraeus, apart from the fact that rock music bloke used to fly for them). You don't really need to even submit an opinion on the pay, (as I have done
), because the bloke can see whether that's enough to feed his kids and pay the mortgage. He doesn't need Rainboe and NSF bickering.
Let's just all be happy.
1234
I've just joined the industry, and very luckily I have a fab job in a really faltering market. For a brand new FO with relatively little experience, I'm getting good pay too. Personally, the Astraeus contract sounds superficially a bit short on the long term job stability front, and lacks (IN MY OPINION) the image of a good ol' stable, long-term job. That's why I personally wouldn't go for it. The pay is also, it must be said, pretty poor.
But that's NOT to say that people shouldn't - there are far more people far less fortunate than myself and NSF who don't have jobs at all. The original post just wanted info on the contracts, not an argument.
And don't forget what doors to automatic said - BA pays its pilots most handsomely, with lots of priviledges and apparent job stability, and is virtually p1ssing money away and asking its pilots to go to work for nothing.
See? Opinions on getting a job with certain airlines aren't really terribly useful. Just give the guy facts. (which unfortunately I don't have, 'cos I know little about Astraeus, apart from the fact that rock music bloke used to fly for them). You don't really need to even submit an opinion on the pay, (as I have done
), because the bloke can see whether that's enough to feed his kids and pay the mortgage. He doesn't need Rainboe and NSF bickering.Let's just all be happy.
1234
With all due respect CJ, exactly how long have you been in the industry? Perhaps after a few years you'll begin to understand both points of view without necessarily agreeing with them.
I have a great deal of time for NSF whom like Woodrow Wyatt seems to be "The Voice of Reason" around here at the moment.
Both sides make valid although inarguably contentious points.
Unemployed myself currently I need to make some hard choices - but even I still have standards - and don't like employers taking the p1ss.
I have a great deal of time for NSF whom like Woodrow Wyatt seems to be "The Voice of Reason" around here at the moment.
Both sides make valid although inarguably contentious points.
Unemployed myself currently I need to make some hard choices - but even I still have standards - and don't like employers taking the p1ss.
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come come, boey, I agree with your principals wholeheartedly regarding those who lecture as if they are gods
, which pprune is full of - but wishing their livelihoods away is perhaps a little overboard.
To the starter of this post, i personally wouldn't bother with the astraeus contracts unless there's ABSOLUTELY nothing else AND you're pretty desperate. and i agree with flash8 - airlines like these make a difficult, challenging, top-rate job into a bog standard, run-of-the-mill slog. We're pilots, not bus drivers. Sure, outfits like FR don't have a prestige image either, but I'm pretty sure they don't pay captains salaries quite as low as that. I don't mind having no frills or perks, but as a top captain, I'd quite like to get paid more than around the level of the headmaster of my local comp!
But, as I said before, it'll pay the bills. And the 320 is a great aircraft. And the destinations will probably be very interesting. Weigh up the facts, and decide.
And most importantly, 1234's most important message to all ppruners, keep it HAPPY.
1234
By the way, what is Captain Rocker's name?
, which pprune is full of - but wishing their livelihoods away is perhaps a little overboard.To the starter of this post, i personally wouldn't bother with the astraeus contracts unless there's ABSOLUTELY nothing else AND you're pretty desperate. and i agree with flash8 - airlines like these make a difficult, challenging, top-rate job into a bog standard, run-of-the-mill slog. We're pilots, not bus drivers. Sure, outfits like FR don't have a prestige image either, but I'm pretty sure they don't pay captains salaries quite as low as that. I don't mind having no frills or perks, but as a top captain, I'd quite like to get paid more than around the level of the headmaster of my local comp!
But, as I said before, it'll pay the bills. And the 320 is a great aircraft. And the destinations will probably be very interesting. Weigh up the facts, and decide.
And most importantly, 1234's most important message to all ppruners, keep it HAPPY.
1234
By the way, what is Captain Rocker's name?
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CJ1234 - as one new to the airline industry, there is a whole lot you do not yet know. It is simply not possible to 'just be happy'. Rainboe, Doug the Head et al are guys I respect. They have been around this industry a long time and all make valid points. I have not the slightest issue with the points they make. They are professional pilots with years of experience and their points are valid. As it happens I disagree with their perspective on things but I have no problem with them disagreeing strongly with me. It is simply not realistic to expect people to come on this thread and say how nice it is that Astraeus are undercutting everyone else and offering rock-bottom jobs, since at least a job is a job. If you want happy, contented people saying how nice it all is you are in the wrong place. Zoos are fully of Koala Bears with no brains sat smiling sweetly to everyone outside - that is not what you will get here. The points on this thread are totally relevant to the Astraeus contract. No one wishes the demise of an airline per-se, but nor do they wish a race to the bottom of the barrel led by Astraeus and others.
Doug - I actually do have some sympathy with your view, but a critical fact about Rayanair and easyJet is that they have actually overall provided many more jobs for airline pilots than previously existed. I am under no illusion at the enormous pressures the industry in general and easyJet in particular is facing. I hope the grass is greener outside for you but I fear not. There are a load of people who have left easyJet in the last couple of years who have actively tried to return but have not been able to do so. We are not perfect but I do not believe it as bad as you say. That does not mean we give up the fight but it does mean we should also recognise the positive aspects of our existences.
Doug - I actually do have some sympathy with your view, but a critical fact about Rayanair and easyJet is that they have actually overall provided many more jobs for airline pilots than previously existed. I am under no illusion at the enormous pressures the industry in general and easyJet in particular is facing. I hope the grass is greener outside for you but I fear not. There are a load of people who have left easyJet in the last couple of years who have actively tried to return but have not been able to do so. We are not perfect but I do not believe it as bad as you say. That does not mean we give up the fight but it does mean we should also recognise the positive aspects of our existences.
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Rainboe, I`m with you on this one. Not necessarily re your opinion of easy but definitely your pragmatism!
Flash, we all have standards, we couldnt do this job without them! and nobody in their right mind likes having the p1ss taken either.
If you have seen any of my previous you will know that I am unemployed, and have been for some time. In May I checked out the Air India Exp contract and decided that I didnt want to spend my life away from home for sh1te pay. However, I put it in the bottom drawer in the hope that something better would come along. In July I was approached by an agency re India and decided that perhaps I should put keeping a roof over my families head above my `standards`. Guess what, in May the age limit was under 62, in July it was under 58.
If I can get a job where I can live with my family then I will take it gladly, and give the 150% I like to give any job I do. We will have to cut our cloth accordingly.
I wont say what I was paid in my last job because it would be embarrassing and you probably wouldnt believe me. But that was yesterday, today is what we have got to live with.
All I can say Flash is, "good for you mate! but for JC`s sake dont leave it too long!!!!"
ps anybody who thinks we are anything other than glorified bus / lux coach/ taxi / limo drivers probably hasnt been in the job very long. No offence intended, `cos ask me if I would chose to have spent the last 39 years doing another job and the answer would be a resounding NO!
"If you cant take a joke....you really shouldn`t have joined!"
Flash, we all have standards, we couldnt do this job without them! and nobody in their right mind likes having the p1ss taken either.
If you have seen any of my previous you will know that I am unemployed, and have been for some time. In May I checked out the Air India Exp contract and decided that I didnt want to spend my life away from home for sh1te pay. However, I put it in the bottom drawer in the hope that something better would come along. In July I was approached by an agency re India and decided that perhaps I should put keeping a roof over my families head above my `standards`. Guess what, in May the age limit was under 62, in July it was under 58.
If I can get a job where I can live with my family then I will take it gladly, and give the 150% I like to give any job I do. We will have to cut our cloth accordingly.
I wont say what I was paid in my last job because it would be embarrassing and you probably wouldnt believe me. But that was yesterday, today is what we have got to live with.
All I can say Flash is, "good for you mate! but for JC`s sake dont leave it too long!!!!"
ps anybody who thinks we are anything other than glorified bus / lux coach/ taxi / limo drivers probably hasnt been in the job very long. No offence intended, `cos ask me if I would chose to have spent the last 39 years doing another job and the answer would be a resounding NO!
"If you cant take a joke....you really shouldn`t have joined!"
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hasn't astraeus put 3 extra aircraft in the sky this year already?
as someone who spent a great deal of time in the aviation industry, although not right now, i can't resist pointing out that the job of an airline captain probably is worth about £70/75K when compared to similar roles in other industries. as someone who enjoyed his time flying/training/examining and managing in this sector, it gives me no pleasure to write it, but it is true.
what i did realise very soon after getting involved with actually running airlines, and now companies in very different sectors, is that airline crew are usually completely ignorant to what actually makes a business/airline successful, regardless of how skilled they are in their respective roles. before leaving aviation I had numerous discussions with 20/yr + captains who clearly didn't know how to make a decision in their area. Usually the same people would demonstrate their lack of business sense on a daily basis, yet they enjoyed the privileges of a position that rewarded them beyond their worth to the company and at a level higher than other more valuable people who didn't have fancy titles.
yes, there are plenty of good ones too, but if being put on a pedestal is your goal, then take a different path.
those of you who are in higher paid positions should anticipate having to adjust your lifestyles.
it is a great job, but it isn't that hard or that stressful, and management around the world realise this now and they're on to you - sorry.
this forum doesn't exactly make you sound like a group of £100K executives either.
again, those with their heads screwed on, please don't take offence - i assume you're doing this job for the right reasons and recognise the realities of what is ahead.
the reason i logged into this thread after not following any of the discussions on this site for quite some time was that i am baffled as to how astraeus are doing it - perhaps by controlling their costs in a way larger and less manoeuvrable carriers can only dream of. also, i'm curious as hell about where these Airbus machines are going.
you'll see nearly every uk carrier laying pilots off this winter, because they've all now realised that next summer is shaping up to be flat.
if there is a job going you had better grab it.
as someone who spent a great deal of time in the aviation industry, although not right now, i can't resist pointing out that the job of an airline captain probably is worth about £70/75K when compared to similar roles in other industries. as someone who enjoyed his time flying/training/examining and managing in this sector, it gives me no pleasure to write it, but it is true.
what i did realise very soon after getting involved with actually running airlines, and now companies in very different sectors, is that airline crew are usually completely ignorant to what actually makes a business/airline successful, regardless of how skilled they are in their respective roles. before leaving aviation I had numerous discussions with 20/yr + captains who clearly didn't know how to make a decision in their area. Usually the same people would demonstrate their lack of business sense on a daily basis, yet they enjoyed the privileges of a position that rewarded them beyond their worth to the company and at a level higher than other more valuable people who didn't have fancy titles.
yes, there are plenty of good ones too, but if being put on a pedestal is your goal, then take a different path.
those of you who are in higher paid positions should anticipate having to adjust your lifestyles.
it is a great job, but it isn't that hard or that stressful, and management around the world realise this now and they're on to you - sorry.
this forum doesn't exactly make you sound like a group of £100K executives either.
again, those with their heads screwed on, please don't take offence - i assume you're doing this job for the right reasons and recognise the realities of what is ahead.
the reason i logged into this thread after not following any of the discussions on this site for quite some time was that i am baffled as to how astraeus are doing it - perhaps by controlling their costs in a way larger and less manoeuvrable carriers can only dream of. also, i'm curious as hell about where these Airbus machines are going.
you'll see nearly every uk carrier laying pilots off this winter, because they've all now realised that next summer is shaping up to be flat.
if there is a job going you had better grab it.
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it is a great job, but it isn't that hard or that stressful, and management around the world realise this now and they're on to you - sorry.
It gives me no pleasure to write this but if you think good pilots are expensive, try having an accident.
Usually the same people would demonstrate their lack of business sense on a daily basis, yet they enjoyed the privileges of a position that rewarded them beyond their worth to the company
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Rainboe - a point of detail about eJ/Ryanair rates of pay which we benefit from due to contractural agreeements 'despite the fact it is losing money'. Neither of these companies are losing money and over a whole financial year never have done. Love them or hate them, both these companies are doing very well in the biggest crisis to hit aviation for a generation. It is possible to make money and pay reasonably. You will rightly point out that the real glitch with these companies lies at the new entrant level which is pretty dire right now. These are battles that can and should be won.
Like others, I too am intrigued where Astraeus will be flying with their A320s - there is some serious competition out there right now and paying their crew 5 bob-a-week will not be enough to offset that. Astraeus economies of scale cannot match either of Ryanair's or easyJet's. Also, I cannot imagine Monarch, Thomas Cook et al being unresponsive to direct competition in their charter worlds. Time will tell.
Like others, I too am intrigued where Astraeus will be flying with their A320s - there is some serious competition out there right now and paying their crew 5 bob-a-week will not be enough to offset that. Astraeus economies of scale cannot match either of Ryanair's or easyJet's. Also, I cannot imagine Monarch, Thomas Cook et al being unresponsive to direct competition in their charter worlds. Time will tell.
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hasn't astraeus put 3 extra aircraft in the sky this year already?
what i did realise very soon after getting involved with actually running airlines, and now companies in very different sectors, is that airline crew are usually completely ignorant to what actually makes a business/airline successful, regardless of how skilled they are in their respective roles. before leaving aviation I had numerous discussions with 20/yr + captains who clearly didn't know how to make a decision in their area. Usually the same people would demonstrate their lack of business sense on a daily basis, yet they enjoyed the privileges of a position that rewarded them beyond their worth.
it is a great job, but it isn't that hard or that stressful, and management around the world realise this now and they're on to you - sorry.
this forum doesn't exactly make you sound like a group of £100K executives either.
what i did realise very soon after getting involved with actually running airlines, and now companies in very different sectors, is that airline crew are usually completely ignorant to what actually makes a business/airline successful, regardless of how skilled they are in their respective roles. before leaving aviation I had numerous discussions with 20/yr + captains who clearly didn't know how to make a decision in their area. Usually the same people would demonstrate their lack of business sense on a daily basis, yet they enjoyed the privileges of a position that rewarded them beyond their worth.
it is a great job, but it isn't that hard or that stressful, and management around the world realise this now and they're on to you - sorry.
this forum doesn't exactly make you sound like a group of £100K executives either.
Well I made sensisble safe business like decisions everyday. I didnt crash and I made money for the company. Funny then that the sooper dooper self congratulary execs still managed to crash the company.
Sure 3000 peoples livlihood is a great respnsibility for a manager but doesnt quite carry the gravitas of 450 dead ones ( wide body bodycount)
One bad decision made by two people can kill hundreds in seconds, ruin countless associated lives and ruin a company in minutes.
It takes numerous execs,mangagers etc working hard at being incompetant while slapping each other on the back over a period of time to ruin a company. So therefore considering the real responsibility based on the effect and consequences of actions/decisions good and bad then pilots are underpaid in comparison.
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standbyils - I can only concur with the points made by wee one. I presume from your contribution you were/are an airline manager. Like most airline managers you are not totally making sense and have some difficulty expressing yourself by the written word. If I have understood your argument correctly, you are saying you have had numerous discussions with 20yr+ captains who 'clearly didn't know how to make a decsion in their area'. I presume you are referring to the business aspects of their area rather than their professional sphere as a pilot. If an airline captain is struggling to make decisions as a pilot then he is in the wrong job - the same would apply to a First Officer with 500 hours to his name. You may indeed be correct about captains not being good at business - that is really not a problem as that is not what they are being paid for. Similarly a trauma surgeon probably knows very little about NHS management, but rants forth about the state of the organisation - possibly from a position of ignorance. Nonetheless, when your body is smashed to bits in a horrific car crash, who do you want with the knife in his hand - a 28 year old whizz kid who 'manages' really well or a crusty old codger with thousands of previous operations under his belt? The old codger will be using indefinable yet critical experience and skills obtained through numerous difficult surgical procedures - much of them in the middle of the night while his manager slept or was being wined and dined by his mates and told what a great guy he was. Love him or hate him, that consultant surgeon is the guy you want saving your life. The NHS manager may indeed bitterly resent how much money the surgeon earns and his status in society, particularly as the surgeon is probably a terrible manager and knows nothing about the business of running the NHS. What the manager forgets is that the surgeon's status was earnt over many years that no one but the surgeon's wife and family ever saw. The surgeon's manager may indeed be 'onto him' and 'knows' that his job just consists of a few chats with patients over a coffee and only a couple of days of actual operating a week even though he is supposed to be a surgeon. The fact is the manager is a dork who knows nothing and has failed to understand anything of the profession he is a manager of. With one tiny wrong stroke of his knife lives are saved or lost - that takes years and years to learn. If I was that victim of the car wreck I would be so grateful not to have a young plonker worrying about the price of stereostrip in charge of my care. I would be utterly delighted to know that the old codger with years of experience and insight was running the show and saving my life.
Onto the pilot's life. There are great similarities with that of the surgeon's world. They have traditionally enjoyed a high status in the world, are 'overpaid' compared to a £100k exacutive who knows all about cost cutting. As he sips his chateau-neuf-de-whotsit of an evening wondering whether to have the chicken or the beef at the company's expense, he would never spare a thought for his overpaid and underworked employees who are cruising the skies above. After all any one could do that job. He never sees the countless little decisions being made that make for a safe operation. He never sees the countless simulator exercises being run 24 hours a day that are there to save a plane load of passengers lives should the situation require. He does know it costs a lot of money and it would be great to cut down the play time in the sim to save a few quid - imagine what that would do to his bonus?
I wonder what Capt Chelsey B. Sullenberg III of US Airways knows about airline management? Not a lot I suspect. Worse still he probably earns a lot of money for being sat there reading newspapers and staring out the window - overpaid and over-rated. Nonetheless, when his A320 lost both engines and had to be flown into the Hudson River for a perfect ditching, I imagine that there were a lot of passengers who were mighty glad he was a 20yr+ captain who had spent countless hours in simulators having a play. I suspect that whatever money he has earnt seems quite small now. Was it relevant that he knows nothing about the 'business' aspects of his airline? He has overnight become the most valuable employee in his company - he and his crew saved his passengers and airline in one 6 minute episode. Who is the CEO of that company? No idea, and frankly who cares? Everyone cares who the captain was - you may not like it but that is the way it is.
You as an airline 'manager' are being paid to do the business bit and most managers cannot do that even though that is all that is required of them. As one who has clearly never been a pilot but only looked enviously at them from the outside you have no idea whether it is stressful or not. Pilots may be expensive, but if you knew more of what they were about you would know they are cheap at the price. Your and your management mates may indeed be 'onto us' - but we were onto you first. Most of you are greedy, self-serving and incompetent people who have no idea how to run a business - all you can see is your next bonus. I am delighted that we earn the money we do and greatly resent the disgraceful situation developing where young pilots are exploited. When the inevitable crash occurs involving a pilot who was sleeping in his car the previous night and was distracted by his debts and low pay, it may be that the view will change. In the meantime, I intend to stand up for the pilot community - come the day of the big race they may be the only protection you have.
Onto the pilot's life. There are great similarities with that of the surgeon's world. They have traditionally enjoyed a high status in the world, are 'overpaid' compared to a £100k exacutive who knows all about cost cutting. As he sips his chateau-neuf-de-whotsit of an evening wondering whether to have the chicken or the beef at the company's expense, he would never spare a thought for his overpaid and underworked employees who are cruising the skies above. After all any one could do that job. He never sees the countless little decisions being made that make for a safe operation. He never sees the countless simulator exercises being run 24 hours a day that are there to save a plane load of passengers lives should the situation require. He does know it costs a lot of money and it would be great to cut down the play time in the sim to save a few quid - imagine what that would do to his bonus?
I wonder what Capt Chelsey B. Sullenberg III of US Airways knows about airline management? Not a lot I suspect. Worse still he probably earns a lot of money for being sat there reading newspapers and staring out the window - overpaid and over-rated. Nonetheless, when his A320 lost both engines and had to be flown into the Hudson River for a perfect ditching, I imagine that there were a lot of passengers who were mighty glad he was a 20yr+ captain who had spent countless hours in simulators having a play. I suspect that whatever money he has earnt seems quite small now. Was it relevant that he knows nothing about the 'business' aspects of his airline? He has overnight become the most valuable employee in his company - he and his crew saved his passengers and airline in one 6 minute episode. Who is the CEO of that company? No idea, and frankly who cares? Everyone cares who the captain was - you may not like it but that is the way it is.
You as an airline 'manager' are being paid to do the business bit and most managers cannot do that even though that is all that is required of them. As one who has clearly never been a pilot but only looked enviously at them from the outside you have no idea whether it is stressful or not. Pilots may be expensive, but if you knew more of what they were about you would know they are cheap at the price. Your and your management mates may indeed be 'onto us' - but we were onto you first. Most of you are greedy, self-serving and incompetent people who have no idea how to run a business - all you can see is your next bonus. I am delighted that we earn the money we do and greatly resent the disgraceful situation developing where young pilots are exploited. When the inevitable crash occurs involving a pilot who was sleeping in his car the previous night and was distracted by his debts and low pay, it may be that the view will change. In the meantime, I intend to stand up for the pilot community - come the day of the big race they may be the only protection you have.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Wouldnt it be a fun exercise to take two airlines.
In the first one sack all the managers and let the pilots nominate from their colleagues with hugely varied backgrounds, some people to "run the airline".
In the second airline lets fire all the pilots and let the managers choose people to fly the airplanes from their robotic leeds poly mba pool of poeple.
Even with the number of EX pilots in management it would grind to a halt because of currency and numbers, type quals, and regulatory requirements.
Assuming all post holders left in place lets see which one would fail first.
Obviously airline 2 for the reasons mentioned would be instantly grounded.
airline 1 would see some disruption due to a number of drivers redeployed to management but would continue ops. So which group of employees is more useful to an organisation?
The point of all this. The skills sets to run airlines already exists in the pilot community , usually from previous lives. The skill sets to fly the kit doesnt exist in the office in sufficient numbers (if at all) and thats being generous.
Managers are a self perpetuating back slapping corps of employees . Pilots are essential and capable of replacing managers and their decision making skills set not the other way round, so as an assett to the company we are worth more.
This has long been forgotten and exploited but that is our fault , not the opportunistic managers.
In the first one sack all the managers and let the pilots nominate from their colleagues with hugely varied backgrounds, some people to "run the airline".
In the second airline lets fire all the pilots and let the managers choose people to fly the airplanes from their robotic leeds poly mba pool of poeple.
Even with the number of EX pilots in management it would grind to a halt because of currency and numbers, type quals, and regulatory requirements.
Assuming all post holders left in place lets see which one would fail first.
Obviously airline 2 for the reasons mentioned would be instantly grounded.
airline 1 would see some disruption due to a number of drivers redeployed to management but would continue ops. So which group of employees is more useful to an organisation?
The point of all this. The skills sets to run airlines already exists in the pilot community , usually from previous lives. The skill sets to fly the kit doesnt exist in the office in sufficient numbers (if at all) and thats being generous.
Managers are a self perpetuating back slapping corps of employees . Pilots are essential and capable of replacing managers and their decision making skills set not the other way round, so as an assett to the company we are worth more.
This has long been forgotten and exploited but that is our fault , not the opportunistic managers.