Astraeus A320 Contracts
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what i did realise very soon after getting involved with actually running airlines, and now companies in very different sectors, is that airline crew are usually completely ignorant to what actually makes a business/airline successful, regardless of how skilled they are in their respective roles
So what did your crews say when asked this question? And what did you say makes an airline successful? Did crew play a part in your response?
Out of the four airlines I have worked for, two turned in a profit year in year out, two did not. The profitable airlines both had former airline captains as MD/CEO. One of the two unprofitable operators has since turned around with a former Captain as boss. What does this tell you?
I personally spent some time in the world of airline operations, sales, commercial and management before going back to flight ops as a pilot. Having seen both sides, it seems some management simply cannot or do not connect with their crews and do not understand the job of crew (other than what it might say in part A). There is rarely a good communication loop between management/commercial & flight ops. Perhaps you needed to educate your pilots how to become commercial managers and give them the authority to make more frontline decisions in that field.
Anyway back to the topic. Said airline has paid 65K for Boeing Captains for some time and there was never this fuss. It’s not the market rate - it’s the AEU rate. Perhaps people expect to see more because it’s contract work.
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Norman Stanley Fletcher - Bravo on your previous post(s), supremely well put and I love the analogy about the surgeon!!! 
spider_man - wrt: "The profitable airlines both had former airline captains as MD/CEO".... Astraeus' present CEO is / was a Training Captain (mind you, in a previous life, he was also an Estate Agent... so that probably balances things out?!.... Sorry Mario, I just couldn't resist! LOL )
spider_man - wrt: "The profitable airlines both had former airline captains as MD/CEO".... Astraeus' present CEO is / was a Training Captain (mind you, in a previous life, he was also an Estate Agent... so that probably balances things out?!.... Sorry Mario, I just couldn't resist! LOL )
DOUG the head wrote: Remember Norman, it's all relative as you yourself work for yet another 'two bit low-cost airline' which exploits it's employees with cadet/TRSS schemes, seasonal commands, lousy crew food, no private health care, pay for your own uniform, direct entry captains (like you Norman!), different contracts for different bases, and the list goes on.
no private health care - its available if you want to pay for it, we have the choice to do what we want with our salary this way;
pay for your own uniform - errrr, we have never had to do this! We had a tax free monthly allowance, stopped in jan tho and we will all be issued with uniforms in december;
DEC- dont all airlines when there is expansion and no suitable FO's;
Different contract for different COUNTRIES - NOT bases - to reflect local and national employment law, if you knew any facts, you will of known that they are very good overseas contracts.
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Hear hear......great post NSF!
It is no great mytsery that there has been animosity from managers towards the pilot group on a whole. At my current company there exists that same sort of resentment from those at HQ. They see us as lazy buggers(working only 90 hrs/month), overpaid (making as much as some managers, how dare they), underqualified (been called a technician), and I quote "cry babies" (words from a former GM who then had the union form almost overnight and was consequently sent packing by the board)
. They seem to have no idea that many of us were previuosly lawyers, stock brokers, engineers, M.BAs, accountants, architects, etc in a previous life.......
If only they knew what it takes......I would gladly show them from the comfort of my jumpseat, starting with the 2am pick up for 4-5 sector high altitude airport (throw in a dose of mild hypoxia), and get home at 3pm and have them do this all over again the next day.......
OW out
It is no great mytsery that there has been animosity from managers towards the pilot group on a whole. At my current company there exists that same sort of resentment from those at HQ. They see us as lazy buggers(working only 90 hrs/month), overpaid (making as much as some managers, how dare they), underqualified (been called a technician), and I quote "cry babies" (words from a former GM who then had the union form almost overnight and was consequently sent packing by the board)
. They seem to have no idea that many of us were previuosly lawyers, stock brokers, engineers, M.BAs, accountants, architects, etc in a previous life.......If only they knew what it takes......I would gladly show them from the comfort of my jumpseat, starting with the 2am pick up for 4-5 sector high altitude airport (throw in a dose of mild hypoxia), and get home at 3pm and have them do this all over again the next day.......
OW out
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it said it all to me one night flying into a kip gusting 60knots. A business man in a suit had urinated himself on the missed approach we made(sporty)....got in the 2nd time.
i earned every bit of my good salary that night.....every last cent.
i earned every bit of my good salary that night.....every last cent.
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good post NSF
A bit of thread drift here - but if this financial crisis has taught us anything it is that businesses should be run by people who actually have knowlege of the business, not some moronic MBA professional 'manager' (i.e administrator) who flits from one industry to another and sees only spreadsheets and costs, and knows nothing of how the business actually runs.
You want a successful airline - then let the pilots / engineers run it. not some idiot with an MBA.
FWIW My view is that in a world where middle ranking adminstrators get paid the sort of money they do (with zero personal risk), school teachers and train drivers get 50k+ and local council 'managers' get 6 figure salarys then an airline captains 'market rate' is into 6 figures, no questions.
A bit of thread drift here - but if this financial crisis has taught us anything it is that businesses should be run by people who actually have knowlege of the business, not some moronic MBA professional 'manager' (i.e administrator) who flits from one industry to another and sees only spreadsheets and costs, and knows nothing of how the business actually runs.
You want a successful airline - then let the pilots / engineers run it. not some idiot with an MBA.
FWIW My view is that in a world where middle ranking adminstrators get paid the sort of money they do (with zero personal risk), school teachers and train drivers get 50k+ and local council 'managers' get 6 figure salarys then an airline captains 'market rate' is into 6 figures, no questions.
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Trauma surgeons and pilots
Great analogy Norman!
Unfortunately it's a completely outdated and flawed one.
Pilots are no trauma/brain surgeons, where minute to minute decisions or actions (cuts of a scalpel) have life threatening consequences. Sure, sometimes it can get hectic in the cockpit, but most of the time we spend our flights monitoring the auto pilot, doing a fuel check, doing a briefing, talking about cars or checking out page 3 of The Sun. Aviation safety has improved enormously since the days of piston engines, old analogue cockpits etc, basically the days when sex was safe and flying was dangerous.
Those were perhaps the days when the trauma surgeon vs pilot analogy would fly, but not anymore.
Try to think of us as errrrrrr coach (traditional airline) drivers, or bus (low cost) drivers, or lorry (freight pilot) drivers or perhaps limo (NetJets etc) drivers. These drivers will drive for hours on end with relatively low work load, yet at certain times a quick (potentially life saving!) reaction might be needed. They can cruise relaxed on empty highways, but need to be focused in busy cities (TMA!) with lot's of pedestrians, cyclists and other cars. Here a lorry driver might have to avoid a group of school children, or a bus driver narrowly has to avoid a collision with a drunk driver who jumped a red light and thus saving his passengers from possible death and injury.
Sure, if a pilot makes the wrong decision then people could die, but if a driver makes the wrong decision (or jerks the steering wheel in the wrong direction) people also die.
So do drivers get paid the same as pilots or the same as trauma surgeons? Answer: nope! Remember that being a truck driver was once considered a good job, now they get paid peanuts in order to keep up with the (Eastern European) competition. Hint: do you see similarities....?
Whether you agree or not, but management sees us as button pushing, system monitoring bus drivers and they are pushing hard for a commensurate pay check. It's all about supply, demand, and the backbone of a workforce to fight for a good deal. Fighting for a good deal should be done during economic good time, so now we are solely at the mercy of supply and demand. Does this perhaps partly explain the downward pressure on our T&C's?
Trust me the grass is greener! Perhaps you get only part of the picture as you hear (orange Pravda-mail propaganda!) about the relatively few people who try to return to EZY. What you don't see are the loads of people who left EZY to join a normal airline and have seen their lives improve by 200%! Not being able to return you say? The trick in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn. Remember, trying to keep people in, either by manipulation, threats and half truths (propaganda) has never worked in the long run. Go and look at what's left of the Berlin Wall next time you're in SXF Norman!
Unfortunately it's a completely outdated and flawed one.
Pilots are no trauma/brain surgeons, where minute to minute decisions or actions (cuts of a scalpel) have life threatening consequences. Sure, sometimes it can get hectic in the cockpit, but most of the time we spend our flights monitoring the auto pilot, doing a fuel check, doing a briefing, talking about cars or checking out page 3 of The Sun. Aviation safety has improved enormously since the days of piston engines, old analogue cockpits etc, basically the days when sex was safe and flying was dangerous.
Those were perhaps the days when the trauma surgeon vs pilot analogy would fly, but not anymore.Try to think of us as errrrrrr coach (traditional airline) drivers, or bus (low cost) drivers, or lorry (freight pilot) drivers or perhaps limo (NetJets etc) drivers. These drivers will drive for hours on end with relatively low work load, yet at certain times a quick (potentially life saving!) reaction might be needed. They can cruise relaxed on empty highways, but need to be focused in busy cities (TMA!) with lot's of pedestrians, cyclists and other cars. Here a lorry driver might have to avoid a group of school children, or a bus driver narrowly has to avoid a collision with a drunk driver who jumped a red light and thus saving his passengers from possible death and injury.
Sure, if a pilot makes the wrong decision then people could die, but if a driver makes the wrong decision (or jerks the steering wheel in the wrong direction) people also die.
So do drivers get paid the same as pilots or the same as trauma surgeons? Answer: nope! Remember that being a truck driver was once considered a good job, now they get paid peanuts in order to keep up with the (Eastern European) competition. Hint: do you see similarities....?
Whether you agree or not, but management sees us as button pushing, system monitoring bus drivers and they are pushing hard for a commensurate pay check. It's all about supply, demand, and the backbone of a workforce to fight for a good deal. Fighting for a good deal should be done during economic good time, so now we are solely at the mercy of supply and demand. Does this perhaps partly explain the downward pressure on our T&C's?
I hope the grass is greener outside for you but I fear not. There are a load of people who have left easyJet in the last couple of years who have actively tried to return but have not been able to do so.
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I have to say I was impressed with Norm`s analogy, but perhaps thats because there is still a tiny bit of me that is not entirely cynical!
Truth is, Doug is right. (see my p.s. a few posts ago!) Sure there are still pubs away from the airport where you can hold an audience in awe `cos your a pilot, but the days of being a kind of `super hero` are past.
Yes, we have all had days when we have earnt every penny, and some more than others. I have nothing but admiration and respect for Chesney S the 3rd, but I suspect that he would be first to say that that was what he was paid for.
Yes there are managers of all levels who resent the pay / lifestyle of pilots, and yes some of them probably tried and failed. It seems to me that you will find such jealousies and resentments in all professions. We are fortunate in that, when we are actually at work, we exercise an independance and autonomy enjoyed by few; and when we finish we go home! Perhaps this is what upsets the office wallahs? I suspect that it might also be why most of us stay with it, despite the ups and downs.
Yes I will accept pay and conditions that I would have laughed at. A year ago I wouldnt have dreamed of doing a month at a time away from my family, let alone two in Nigeria for $8000 pm like I am now!
Bottom line? I have had a great time, worked with some amazing people in some amazing places, for a very decent scratch! Sometimes its been a lot and others, like now, not so hot. I`ve got firends in the City who never see their kids (and often the wife too!) except on Sat & Sun.
We pride ourselves that our professionalism guides us in sound judgement and decision making. That judgement has to prevail now, as we deal with the reality not the hypothetical!
Above all.......... stay cool, be safe, and, if you can, enjoy!
Truth is, Doug is right. (see my p.s. a few posts ago!) Sure there are still pubs away from the airport where you can hold an audience in awe `cos your a pilot, but the days of being a kind of `super hero` are past.
Yes, we have all had days when we have earnt every penny, and some more than others. I have nothing but admiration and respect for Chesney S the 3rd, but I suspect that he would be first to say that that was what he was paid for.
Yes there are managers of all levels who resent the pay / lifestyle of pilots, and yes some of them probably tried and failed. It seems to me that you will find such jealousies and resentments in all professions. We are fortunate in that, when we are actually at work, we exercise an independance and autonomy enjoyed by few; and when we finish we go home! Perhaps this is what upsets the office wallahs? I suspect that it might also be why most of us stay with it, despite the ups and downs.
Yes I will accept pay and conditions that I would have laughed at. A year ago I wouldnt have dreamed of doing a month at a time away from my family, let alone two in Nigeria for $8000 pm like I am now!
Bottom line? I have had a great time, worked with some amazing people in some amazing places, for a very decent scratch! Sometimes its been a lot and others, like now, not so hot. I`ve got firends in the City who never see their kids (and often the wife too!) except on Sat & Sun.
We pride ourselves that our professionalism guides us in sound judgement and decision making. That judgement has to prevail now, as we deal with the reality not the hypothetical!
Above all.......... stay cool, be safe, and, if you can, enjoy!
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I started flying jets on the Boeing 707. It was a clockwork airplane with three flight deck crew. There was often a steep authority gradient in the flightdeck, that was to some extent modified by the presence of the third crewman. The technology of the era meant that each pilot and flight engineer worked much harder on a purely mental level, and the levels of monitoring reflected the reliability of that era. Again this was modified by the contribution of the third crewmember. Despite all of this, there was still time to chat, read the newspaper and drink coffee and eat meals on trays or should that be entrees on trays?
The 707 was eventually replaced with the 757. Basically the same airplane with some lighter plastic bits and two big quiet engines rather than 4 small noisy ones. It was sold to airline managements around the world as the latest thing in technology and cost saving. The clockwork panels had been replaced with 80's technology TV sets. The more reliable autopilot could be linked into the new cutting edge 200kb electronic adding machines for greater efficiency. Electronic monitoring and pictoral navigation meant that the Flight engineers could all be retired and the pilots workload would actually be reduced, provided everything worked as it should. So it came to be that the systems were reasonably reliable and the pilots monitoring role became far greater as a result. Of course the microchips didn't monitor the pilots very well as the engineer used to, so a new emphasis on monitoring each other was given an added impetus with the promotion of various self awareness programmes under the umbrella of acronyms such as CRM.
As things advanced, so automation and electronic systems monitoring advanced, to the point that designers told pilots they wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and the systems would where necessary intervene to correct. This often proved erroneous and required a new set of learning disciplines. The clockwork pilots were painfully aware that their own manual flying skills were dulled by the lack of actual opportunites to practice them. Nevertheless there was always a realization that the same fundamentals and awareness that kept the 707 flying, was what provided the actual backup to all these cyan/magenta, four letter acronym electronic abacuses, failing!
As things progressed further, it seemed superfluous to require 2 experienced pilots being expensively employed in the flight deck. Regulators and manufacturers wouldn't permit a single crew operation, but they did allow a much more flexible arrangement whereby the first officers role, became more monitoring based and new technology dependant. That didn't prove too traumatic as there was still an underlying element of realisation that in default there was still a 707 lurking underneath. However it did allow the costings of the flightdeck wages to be depressed thereby improving the companies bottom line.
Despite this new technology, there were warning signs! A few of these new aircraft were being dredged from the ocean floor, or scrapped off mountain sides because of pitot tube or static vent blockages or computer input error causing electronic confusion and basic loss of situational awareness to the overly reliant crews. To a greater or lesser extent this is continuing now.
As even newer technology is introduced with the advent of new aircraft such as the 787 and A350 which will still be flying beyond 2050, reliability will improve and the opportunity for cost savings will increase further. However it would be very foolish and short sighted of CEO's and industry regulators to forget that despite the smart new clothes, there is still a 707 underneath and the same disciplines and awareness that routinely kept those aircraft flying safely, are the default positions and basics that should be tought, learned, practiced, reinforced and remembered by the new generation of pilots. It should also be learned, tought, reinforced and remembered by the company CEO's that those skills come at a price that reflects the importance of those skills. Few companies survive the TV images of their coporate logos bobbing about on the oceans surface, or smoking on a hillside. That only has to happen once!
The 707 was eventually replaced with the 757. Basically the same airplane with some lighter plastic bits and two big quiet engines rather than 4 small noisy ones. It was sold to airline managements around the world as the latest thing in technology and cost saving. The clockwork panels had been replaced with 80's technology TV sets. The more reliable autopilot could be linked into the new cutting edge 200kb electronic adding machines for greater efficiency. Electronic monitoring and pictoral navigation meant that the Flight engineers could all be retired and the pilots workload would actually be reduced, provided everything worked as it should. So it came to be that the systems were reasonably reliable and the pilots monitoring role became far greater as a result. Of course the microchips didn't monitor the pilots very well as the engineer used to, so a new emphasis on monitoring each other was given an added impetus with the promotion of various self awareness programmes under the umbrella of acronyms such as CRM.
As things advanced, so automation and electronic systems monitoring advanced, to the point that designers told pilots they wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and the systems would where necessary intervene to correct. This often proved erroneous and required a new set of learning disciplines. The clockwork pilots were painfully aware that their own manual flying skills were dulled by the lack of actual opportunites to practice them. Nevertheless there was always a realization that the same fundamentals and awareness that kept the 707 flying, was what provided the actual backup to all these cyan/magenta, four letter acronym electronic abacuses, failing!
As things progressed further, it seemed superfluous to require 2 experienced pilots being expensively employed in the flight deck. Regulators and manufacturers wouldn't permit a single crew operation, but they did allow a much more flexible arrangement whereby the first officers role, became more monitoring based and new technology dependant. That didn't prove too traumatic as there was still an underlying element of realisation that in default there was still a 707 lurking underneath. However it did allow the costings of the flightdeck wages to be depressed thereby improving the companies bottom line.
Despite this new technology, there were warning signs! A few of these new aircraft were being dredged from the ocean floor, or scrapped off mountain sides because of pitot tube or static vent blockages or computer input error causing electronic confusion and basic loss of situational awareness to the overly reliant crews. To a greater or lesser extent this is continuing now.
As even newer technology is introduced with the advent of new aircraft such as the 787 and A350 which will still be flying beyond 2050, reliability will improve and the opportunity for cost savings will increase further. However it would be very foolish and short sighted of CEO's and industry regulators to forget that despite the smart new clothes, there is still a 707 underneath and the same disciplines and awareness that routinely kept those aircraft flying safely, are the default positions and basics that should be tought, learned, practiced, reinforced and remembered by the new generation of pilots. It should also be learned, tought, reinforced and remembered by the company CEO's that those skills come at a price that reflects the importance of those skills. Few companies survive the TV images of their coporate logos bobbing about on the oceans surface, or smoking on a hillside. That only has to happen once!
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EXCELLENT Bubs!
The 707.....................AH those were the days!!!!
The F/E down in lower 41 fixing the autopilot or something
The Nav asleep
The Captain nursing a hangover and wondering how he is going to explain the black eye to his misses!!
.......................and me?
Loving every bloody minute of it!!!
The 707.....................AH those were the days!!!!
The F/E down in lower 41 fixing the autopilot or something
The Nav asleep
The Captain nursing a hangover and wondering how he is going to explain the black eye to his misses!!
.......................and me?
Loving every bloody minute of it!!!
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Doug - you could not be more wrong. There are exact analogies between us and the surgeon. Like us 99% of his time is routine and he does a job that is fairly straight forward - indeed in Africa they train 'surgeons' to do 5 basic operations in 18 months and most of the time they do just fine. The problem is that if they branch outside those 5 ops then both they and their patients are stuffed. You are paying that guy for the day of the big race - I know a number of surgeons and they will tell you just that. Remember we are not paid to be businessmen - we are paid to be pilots of commercial aircraft and that is what we aim to excel at.
I am also delighted to hear how much better the grass is outside Doug - just go for it. Do not waste another moment of your life hating easyJet - just leave now. I have no problem with you hating it, but don't become a sad man who ruins every First Officer's day by going on about how bad life in the company is. Just leave and make way for the literally thousands of pilots who are trying to join us. We all know easyJet is not perfect, but it is a whole lot better than most of the options out there right now. If you have a better option then just fill your boots. You could have a job with Astaeus right now - they would bite your hand off. Go for it and I look forward to hearing your posts about the exciting new world you are in and the dreadful one you have left behind. We are all up for fighting for our futures at easyJet - the good news is that there is a future to fight for.
I am also delighted to hear how much better the grass is outside Doug - just go for it. Do not waste another moment of your life hating easyJet - just leave now. I have no problem with you hating it, but don't become a sad man who ruins every First Officer's day by going on about how bad life in the company is. Just leave and make way for the literally thousands of pilots who are trying to join us. We all know easyJet is not perfect, but it is a whole lot better than most of the options out there right now. If you have a better option then just fill your boots. You could have a job with Astaeus right now - they would bite your hand off. Go for it and I look forward to hearing your posts about the exciting new world you are in and the dreadful one you have left behind. We are all up for fighting for our futures at easyJet - the good news is that there is a future to fight for.
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What really dictates how much a person should get paid? Well no one really knows. Society has set pay scales for individuals within different industries based on a.) education standards required/attained, b.) cost of qualifications and c.) relative or perceived complexity of the job.
Whichever way you look at it, our job is perceived as very expensive to qualify for and relatively complex to do - by 90% of the population. Whilst an airline pilot's job was indeed very complex and tough 30 years ago, thanks to human advancement we have been able to reduce our workload by making things simpler and introducing automation. However, these concepts are not limited to the job of airline pilots. In all industries, the level of actual “work” we do on a daily basis is reducing. It’s the same wherever you go. So this argument is very weak.
Whichever way you look at it, our job is perceived as very expensive to qualify for and relatively complex to do - by 90% of the population. Whilst an airline pilot's job was indeed very complex and tough 30 years ago, thanks to human advancement we have been able to reduce our workload by making things simpler and introducing automation. However, these concepts are not limited to the job of airline pilots. In all industries, the level of actual “work” we do on a daily basis is reducing. It’s the same wherever you go. So this argument is very weak.
Last edited by Smooth Airperator; 11th Aug 2009 at 15:21.
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There you go. Just as us old codgers were starting to wax lyrical along comes a bright young person to get sensible. Quite right too!
Just for the record and apropos nothing at all, I really enjoyed the many years I flew with somebody on a panel behind. Worth their weight in gold, not to mention their first pick of the sandwiches and whatever else might be on offer!!!!
Just for the record and apropos nothing at all, I really enjoyed the many years I flew with somebody on a panel behind. Worth their weight in gold, not to mention their first pick of the sandwiches and whatever else might be on offer!!!!
NSF said to DOUG the HEAD - Do not waste another moment of your life hating easyJet - just leave now.
I didnt realise he worked for easy.
In that case its inexcusable that he rants on post
DOUG the head wrote: Remember Norman, it's all relative as you yourself work for yet another 'two bit low-cost airline' which exploits it's employees with cadet/TRSS schemes, seasonal commands, lousy crew food, no private health care, pay for your own uniform, direct entry captains (like you Norman!), different contracts for different bases, and the list goes on.
How sad to be so bitter about your place of work!
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get some balls and work for a proper contract!!!!
Pan to interview.
Chief Pilot: "So Capt Cav..... is there anything else youd like to say?"
Capt Cav: " Yeah your contract is crap and you can stick it where there is no risk of solar radiation! I`m off back to the good old rock and roll !"
Who needs a job when you`ve got balls like that eh?
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Can any one share with the ones interested on this contract,
What kind of operation can we expect from Astraeus?
How many hours are flown monthly more or less?
How many days off are they giving? Are they block-days or isolated?
How many standby days?
Is there a lot of positioning before and after the flights?
Are they doing Charter and Regular flights or just Wet lease?
Are there a lot of lay-outs?
How is the atmosphere with in all the employees?
Thank you all!
What kind of operation can we expect from Astraeus?
How many hours are flown monthly more or less?
How many days off are they giving? Are they block-days or isolated?
How many standby days?
Is there a lot of positioning before and after the flights?
Are they doing Charter and Regular flights or just Wet lease?
Are there a lot of lay-outs?
How is the atmosphere with in all the employees?
Thank you all!
