Unpaid Leave

[silverhawk]

Have some self respect

Everyone in management knows who I really am and I don't have any qualms about expressing my views at work in my own name.

This sort of personal attack on a public forum is not acceptable.

Some of us have worked long and hard, and made no secret of the fact that we want a better system in place than the dilution of a real council that we were subjected to.

We will now get a better system. Please try to refrain from vindictive personal attacks on a public forum.

It has taken a lot of terrible decisions to push the pilots into acting, but at last we are there. Now we can begin to rebuild some security and mutual understanding.

[Prawn_to_Run]

Silverhawk, PM was threatening to close newcastle base if we got BALPA in.
We've got a long way to go before we'll see any light my silver winged chum.

[silverhawk]

And as you very well know that threat is illegal and actionable if you have witnesses and/or evidence.

What people say or threaten to do are one thing. What actually happens is something else entirely.

I say again, please try to avoid public forums and deal with this in the appropriate manner, ie in house and in your own name.

[boelectra]

Silverhawk

Personal attacks are not going to achieve anything you're right on that.

People have stopped using the inhouse method of communication. I wonder why? It strikes me that most are now afraid to speak out with their real id's known.

Balpa is the only way forward now, surely PM must realise that no one wants to harm the company? We Just want a little respect and fair discussion about changes that affect OUR futures.

How far from getting recognition are we?

[LowFareFinder]

Let's get a few things understood re contract law and employee contracts:

- a company can change your T&Cs at any time
- the changes, if not material changes, can be determined as free and fair
- the changes, if material changes, can only be done with the consent of the employee

At no time in recent past, has FD changes been material changes. Forcing unpaid leave on an employee is a material change.

If a company is on the brink of failure, then reducing working days can be seen to be a change which everyone will agree to. Jet2 is not in that position, by any stretch of the imagination. A tribunal, and judge, would look very unfavorably on Jet2 for going down that avenue.

There are a number of options open to Jet2 within normal contract law to try and get around that situation and forcing flight deck to agree (and I won't divulge them here so as not to put ideas in the minds of mgt). All these avenues could result in legitimate claims for unfair dismissal, and you would win, no question.

I notice the recent 'no quick decision will be made' reference. I would rather look for the term 'no unreasonable decision will be made'. I do doubt it. Rather like the summer holiday, and the recent uniform decision - no reference to any discussion or reasonable objection.

The strength of feeling amongst the FD is strong on this one. Won't accept the doom-message of failure (been used too many times, and the company has made more money than BA, Lufty, AF & KLM put together.

Dare I say industrial action is looming?

[silverhawk]

Recognition is the proposed action after all bases have had their meetings. Membership is good enough. Balpa will not rush proceedings. Industrial action is not looming. The inhouse chat forum lost all credibility when HR tried to use it as a reason for spanking.

[Prawn_to_Run]

Well Silverhawk .. you answered your own question with regards to keeping gripes inhouse r.e our own forum that your new best mate Doubtfire was so keen on that turned out was used against us ... bolox, I'll stick to Pprune thanks

[silverhawk]

Prawn

If you expect any credibility then this anonymous forum does you no favours at all.

ID is not my new mate. He is however a colleague and as such deserves the same level of respect you as a colleague would expect.

ID is not the element of HR that tried to use the company chat site as a method of control.

Ever since I was visited at home by a company representative at home to try to deflect the pilot workforce from joining BALPA I have been actively encouraging BALPA membership.

I urge you to be a member and encourage your close colleagues to join

There will be a seismic change shortly

I'm sure have my contact details, just call me

[LowFareFinder]

Mgt/HR grossly overestimate your influence on flight-deck reasoning.

[757flyer]

There is an awful load of Cr@p spouted on here!

All that has been asked is that we the pilots put foward suggestions for the overcrewing situation for the winter, options may be available such as unpaid leave, contracting for another airline, retainers etc. FORCED UNPAID LEAVE IS PURELY A RUMOUR! This has NOT been suggested at all by managers.

Whilst i agree that it is time for BALPA to represent us here at Jet2 lets not let rumours get in the way of the truth!

[Captainkingkong]

I see the meeting date is 18th Aug now thats for i am assuming initial consultation with pilot workforce putting forward their bids and suggestions. Now i cannot see many people volunteering for unpaid leave personally as given that most have 30 leave days left and some all their leave+5 days means they can have a week off virtually every month. This alone affords you a very nice relaxing Winter so why will anyone take the winter off unpaid when they can have a weeks paid leave each month. Being contracted out to other airlines ? well how many 737 operators in the Uk that operate classics that are short of pilots ? How many 737 classic operators are there in Europe that are short of drivers thats probably a list of erm ??? zero ... So that alone leaves pilots possibly working a 6 month contract away from the company. Surely then 18th of Aug is quite late to start talking to the pilots as that doesnt leave much time for finding of contracts, surely sooner rather than later allows people to make plans.

I see yesterday was the busiest day of the Summer so far and PM and ID were walking up and down the flightline. Now love ID/PM or hate them i see this as incredibly proactive management. If things werent going right then you had a director available to sort a problem. Personally i applaud this type of management and some will complain about it, personally i think it maintains an edge. When was the last time Willie Walsh walked down a flight line and saw the problems at first hand.

As for BALPA they arent going to fire any silver bullets, one can only hope that PM doesnt see them screwing over his company, we all have a vested interest in the company succeeding. However certain actions in the last 12 months have forced us to seek someone stood behind those who negotiate on our behalf with the legal back up. PM should see it as positive as anything agreed with a BALPA comittee usually leads to less grumbling of the pilot work force. Just on the previous point, who is actually representing us at the moment as a very important meeting is occuring 18th Aug, who are the people who are standing up and representing us. All seems a little vague following the loss of the last two ???? Be nice to have the names of our new representitives..

Financial results out this week and they are looking very promising its all a bit of a quandry at the moment, lots of profit and the talk of unpaid leave.

Sorry and finally whoever sent out that unsubstantiated text message was way wide of the mark as it had a big effect on morale that if the information was incorrect was way out of line.

So now we have KPI on your fuel cost as a crew, your sick days documented with a HR meeting what is next ? The sooner we all know the better to stop all the crew room gossip and move on.

Someone mentioned keeping it in house, couldnt agree more. However the reason it is on here is due to the lack of information being transmitted by the company what other medium do the pilots have, the uncertainty is threatening peoples families,mortgages and livelihoods.

[always half full]

I have to agree with the last two posts. Jet2 isn't perfect, far from it. What we need to remember is we have job's!

PM manages his business the way he see's fit. After recent events his attitude could be described as more significant than any changes enforced on us - ie the implications on flight safety!!!!

Silverhawk - Your comments are a contradiction of terms:

The inhouse chat forum lost all credibility when HR tried to use it as a reason for spanking.

or

If you expect any credibility then this anonymous forum does you no favours at all.

What will it be then? Get a spanking for using our in-house facility, or try to use the anonymous forum for some discussion.......?

I know where I'll stay thanks.

So, with all the rumours milling around, I'm going to do as my name suggests and stay hopeful that after next week, when the good company results are released that the company will do as they are suggesting and come up with some money saving insentives/cost cutting, whatever you want to call it.

From what I understand:

- There will be NO redundancies
- They will ask the more senior Pilots would they like to take early retirement
- They may very well ask for volunteers to take unpaid leave over Winter (May suit some!)
- Fleet transfers may be an option as the company is moving towards a Charter airline model
- BALPA membership will come with time, but rest assured PM will not embrace them

Either way, we have to try and be a little flexible, but not to the extent that we end up with nothing. The company will find it very hard to justify any changes once the results are out, but there still lies tough times ahead. Lets fight one battle at a time, and with the RIGHT tools to do it!!!!!! BALPA, BALPA, BALPA!!!

[Prawn_to_Run]

'unpaid leave over Winter (May suit some!)' last time I looked I didn't see anyone turning up in a Bentley to go to work at KitKat House.
The best they could do is 50% paid leave over Winter. If your glass was half full it at the start it wouldn't be by the end of winter

[always half full]

Prawn,

Seen it all before. Until we get BALPA, all this idle chit chat and rumouring is fit for nothing!!!

I'm sure Winter off will suit some (whether that be 50%, 80% or whatever they decide to offer, it's coming). I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise, and yes, it will probably only work for the better paid Pilot's (No F/O's then)!

It has been said non of this will be compulsary (to start with), more a voluntary option scheme!!!!!!

And, just for the record, my glass is ALWAYS half full.....(Ever the optomist)

I have a new pair of rose tinted glasses too

[Captainkingkong]

Its easy really, they are going to have to spend a bit to save a bit. If people are offered 50% salary for the Winter off they will get the takers they need. That will save them 50% salary, are they being greedy and they want no salary and Winter off lets be honest they aren't going to get more than a handful of takers. So they know the answer and we know the answer offer the troops 50% and winter off and you may have a long list of takers. This may not be paletable to HR but so what, if PM wants to save a large chunk of salary then he may need to bite a bullet. As for asking some of the older pilots to retire, surely if they wanted to retire they would have done it already.

BALPA, here is my question why is PM so against the BALPA representation. We are all realists and arent going to dash in requesting a pay rise we all knwo a difficult Winter ahead with the economy and "pig flu". So the only reason not to want BALPA would be if you wanted your employee workforce to accept terms an conditions that arent "kosher". Now PM at the BALPA meeting was intially explosive and finished with an air of calmness and negotiation surely he knows we arent all planning to down tools and stand around a brazier, we want jobs as much as he wants a profitable airline in fact the two run hand in hands. In fact if you look at the average stay of his office staff in the job vs the average stay of Flt Deck in the job i bet he would find his pilots are his most long serving and loyal employees. We want the airline to succeed as much as he does, however it states on the front of everyones licence one important word .."Professional". My view is BALPA is required in a format that doesnt provide conflict it just means that the word professional is kept at the forefront of senior managments minds. However if we want to be treated like professionals we have to act like professionals and that little diatribe that appeared in the middle of thistthread was uncalled for and is more likely to inflame passions in the wrong way.

[eastwest]

Kosher pig-flu back scratchings.

Capt K.K,

Don't disagree with anything in your last post and would point out that a mate in Mytravel has been taking time off in the winter at 75% salary for some years now. He's happy and his company are happy as they still save money [mutual back scratching concept can be taken onboard].

Don't know if you can mention "kosher" and "pig-flu" in the same posting though.

Cheers,
E/W.

[silverhawk]

Of course I see the contradiction.

I will continue to use the inhouse site because I've never made a secret of my views.

I surrendered my anonymity on here a long time ago. Even so, I think personal attacks on here from the safety of an anonymous username is unacceptable.

I understand if someone would rather not put their name to a view on the company site because of fear. They needn't be though. I can vouch for that.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll all be better off sometime soon. ALL.

[the green hornet]

The crew forum is as already stated a farce! No sooner had it been used as a discipline tool it became time expired. But we need frank discussion and here is the only place left to conduct it.

This isn't a personal attack but we have an ops director that I and most just have no faith in, he is no leader and in my opinion is just a yes man that is just feathering his own nest, I as many others heard him state that CF (HR) was a very powerful lady who shouldn't be crossed! Now that says to me that if that is his view we are leaderless. RB had a handle on what was right and what was wrong and gave his views accordingly! CF has no understanding of what our job entails and runs the whole show as if we are all 9 to 5er's. The company is multi faceted and cannot be governed as if we are all the same.

Using fuel as KPI is not only wrong but is dangerous! Who came up with it? Surely not a pilot! I for one will not be adjusting the way I operate. I'll be using the experience I have gained over the last 20 years to put on the fuel I require, not what the company says i'll require. If it is your idea Tweed or any of you management pilots had input into it, you should be ashamed of yourselves. This is no way to manage fuel usage.

Dont expect 50% pay for winter off, PM has never ever given something for nothing. I hope the rumours are wrong, but as always with this lot there will be something wheeled out at the next meeting!

I urge those left on the crew council to resign forthwith, let them stuggle with issuing the bad news themselves.

[always half full]

Green,

You are of course right with regards to "your" fuel policy, and I don't know of any pilot that wouldn't exercise his power as the commander of the aircraft to take what he deems safe!

There are some who will take plog fuel, and there are times when diversions will be required. This has been factored in and accepted. Overall, I think they have achieved what they wanted, and that was a fuel saving. Ignore the KPI jargon (Sim time and line checks have always worked well!), it's a management tool for the measurement of managers and thier workforces. Works well in manufacturing/medical/financial sectors, but un-measurable in the airline industry, too many variables! (I'm guessing this came with new HR staff from other industries. Nice idea, wrong environment).....

We all know the dreaded HR witch has been put out to graze, so she's no longer a problem. The problem now is communication. There, like you say, is a fear from above. There are people in high positions who are afraid to speak what they really think, and that comes right from the top. Consequently you breed a management team who in fear for their own jobs' would rather be "yes" men/ladies than stand up for what they believe to be right!

I'm a great believer in re-invention and adaption to the environment you find yourself in, and I have to say our leader is good at that. My only concern is our leader is taking is finger of the pulse regarding his workforce. The very same workforce who have built this company with him to the level it's at today. We have had to to take the rough with the smooth, many of us sacrificing (this year) holidays and such the like. We are ALL here working hard to see this company a success and earn Mr.Meeson the riches he most desires. In the interest of flight safety and Jet2, I think it is time he re-evaluates his position as Chairman. Ruling with an iron fist, threatening crews before work etc is a BIG NO-NO!!!!

BALPA will come Mr.Meeson, not to brow beat you, but to put in place a modern workable communication tool that can't be ignored. You can't take take take, there has to be some give. We, as a whole have now decided enough is enough. Some pretty krass decisions have forced our hands and now we are taking action. But don't worry, BALPA aren't about to close you down, no,no. They are us, we are them. We will endeavour to work with them and you (let's face it, you make ALL the decisions anyhow) to try and work through these difficult times as best we can, with a vast amount of experience to draw from.

It's been said before, and I'll say it again, BALPA is our only option. We have the desired numbers now (ie well over 50%+1), but awaiting a few more from every base for that warm and fuzzy feeling!

Let us work together, act like adults and agree on terms and conditions that benefit all. If 50% rosters over Winter suit some, then let them have it. For God's sake, you are saving 50% of your wage bill for that person.........Let ego's be pushed aside, it is people who keep this airline running, not one man and his dog!!!!

[B-727]

AHF and others: Very well worded responses that perfectly sums up the feeling of the pilot and indeed, cabin crew workforce.

Unforunately I still feel there are many crews who still just can't be bothered with anything except turn up and get paid - fair enough, thats what we all want.

Yet I'm amazed at how some alsmost seem like zombies. 'oh well, there's a recession', 'well it's like it in most airlines', 'I can't see the point in a union', 'I'll just take plog fuel irrespective of the fact I flew yesterday and the winds were wrong and the whole scheme is run by people with little or sod all experience' etc etc. This point is driven home by the fairly low numbers that turned up for the BALPA meetings. (some were busy working I know)

The days of RB, FB, CFr, JB and to an extent NH are gone, to be replaced by you know who (I don't feel it appropriate to use full names but those in Jet2 will know).

Fortunately we still have two great Fleet Captains to keep some reasoning between Human Remains and and those who fly large chunks of metal around.

Finally, why are Jet2 so set on hiring these inexperienced soles and letting them change how we operate an aircraft? If Jet2 is moving into the charter / holiday market they should be taking note of other carriers and leaning from their failiures and sucesses.

I'm not from a charter background but I'll wager everyone on this thread a pint that at least 50% of some of these 'half-arsed' schemes (Fuel KPI / GDF / turning cabin crew into pushy sales bods /etc ) has been tried and failed before.

When I started with Jet2 there was never a need for GDF as the company was a fun, loyal and happy place to be that was felt by our passengers.

I fear if we lose this chance for BALPA recognition we will set back any chance of the T & C's in this airline improving for a number of years.

If your a Jet2 flight deck member reading this who isn't a BALPA member then I urge you to at least take 5 mins to look into the benefits...........