RYANAIR thoughts
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Day Dreamer, that's an interesting slant on things.
My view, and what I have consistently said, is that I believe that the issue is sufficiently profound that it impinges on the livelihoods of all the pilots that the BRK guys should also have a say.
Whether the CAC, if they decide that "in the interests of good industrial relations" hold a ballot and include BRK pilots remains to be seen: BALPA will certainly manipulate the process to their own ends. You only have to look at their response to our rejection of their application to see that.
The pro BALPA lobby can produce nothing to support their assertions that recognition would improve our T & C's or enhance our lives: instead they rely on obtuse personal attacks, misinformation and the blind faith that it won't happen to them. Heroes, led by donkeys.
alibaba is a prime example: he is blinded by a personal dislike of me and my opinion: whilst he believes that he has the right to "interpret" ( his word ) the legislation, and hence is so certain that his interpretation is the only true version that he denies any other opinion, he puffs and preens and achieves absolutely NOTHING. What is fascinating, however, is that he, and the other BALPA hardliners, are being sidetracked by trivia as they have NO valid case to put across.
What they cannot do is to place before the FR pilot community a definitive policy or schedule of "improvements": they cannot deliver a timetable for these "improvements" nor are they, or their masters in BALPA HQ prepared to commit to paying salaries or providing unqualified legal assistance ( in the form of financial aid ) to any pilot who loses his / her job because of this recognition campaign. I know this as I have asked them, again and again to commit themselves to this, and I have asked the BALPA staff, at the highest level, to commit to this, and they have refused.
What's more, the BALPA hardliners are TERRIFIED, a word they love to bandy around about the company and those who don't want recognition, to stand up, stop hiding behind anonymous screen names and take their crusade to the crewrooms.
That is the level of commitment they have to the FR pilots.
This is not a campaign about your terms and conditions: this is not a campaign about your rights under Employment legislation or European Law. This campaign is about BALPA getting a scalp it can wave to the world at the next international bunfight its delegates attend at the members expense.
BALPA simply wants to achieve some recognition, anywhere, at Ryanair to score points, even when they know without reservation that their actions will result in the base that votes for recognition being closed immediately and pilots, cabin crew and engineers losing their jobs.
Ask yourself why they submitted 10 separate recognition applications, 1 for each UK base, rather than a blanket application covering all UK contracted FR pilots; it's a spread bet in the hope of a small victory.
If you want to see the full "benefit" of union membership, have a read at the thread on the Cabin Crew forums about BA: while BASSA fiddles BA burns. Willie Walsh has a holding pool of 1500+ cabin crew waiting to take the jobs of the ones he sacks but BASSA, rather like BALPA, can't see the wood for the trees.
Anyone in FR who votes for recognition is simply running at speed towards the cliff edge: the recession hasn't bottomed and a double, or treble dip is looming over the horizon. Sit tight, keep taking the salary for 15 days work a month, keep picking up the sector pay, accept the payment for car parking, medicals, loss of licence and keep making your contributions to the pension so that the company keeps making theirs.
But above all, retain your dignity and respect: avoid the trip to the dole line.
My view, and what I have consistently said, is that I believe that the issue is sufficiently profound that it impinges on the livelihoods of all the pilots that the BRK guys should also have a say.
Whether the CAC, if they decide that "in the interests of good industrial relations" hold a ballot and include BRK pilots remains to be seen: BALPA will certainly manipulate the process to their own ends. You only have to look at their response to our rejection of their application to see that.
The pro BALPA lobby can produce nothing to support their assertions that recognition would improve our T & C's or enhance our lives: instead they rely on obtuse personal attacks, misinformation and the blind faith that it won't happen to them. Heroes, led by donkeys.
alibaba is a prime example: he is blinded by a personal dislike of me and my opinion: whilst he believes that he has the right to "interpret" ( his word ) the legislation, and hence is so certain that his interpretation is the only true version that he denies any other opinion, he puffs and preens and achieves absolutely NOTHING. What is fascinating, however, is that he, and the other BALPA hardliners, are being sidetracked by trivia as they have NO valid case to put across.
What they cannot do is to place before the FR pilot community a definitive policy or schedule of "improvements": they cannot deliver a timetable for these "improvements" nor are they, or their masters in BALPA HQ prepared to commit to paying salaries or providing unqualified legal assistance ( in the form of financial aid ) to any pilot who loses his / her job because of this recognition campaign. I know this as I have asked them, again and again to commit themselves to this, and I have asked the BALPA staff, at the highest level, to commit to this, and they have refused.
What's more, the BALPA hardliners are TERRIFIED, a word they love to bandy around about the company and those who don't want recognition, to stand up, stop hiding behind anonymous screen names and take their crusade to the crewrooms.
That is the level of commitment they have to the FR pilots.
This is not a campaign about your terms and conditions: this is not a campaign about your rights under Employment legislation or European Law. This campaign is about BALPA getting a scalp it can wave to the world at the next international bunfight its delegates attend at the members expense.
BALPA simply wants to achieve some recognition, anywhere, at Ryanair to score points, even when they know without reservation that their actions will result in the base that votes for recognition being closed immediately and pilots, cabin crew and engineers losing their jobs.
Ask yourself why they submitted 10 separate recognition applications, 1 for each UK base, rather than a blanket application covering all UK contracted FR pilots; it's a spread bet in the hope of a small victory.
If you want to see the full "benefit" of union membership, have a read at the thread on the Cabin Crew forums about BA: while BASSA fiddles BA burns. Willie Walsh has a holding pool of 1500+ cabin crew waiting to take the jobs of the ones he sacks but BASSA, rather like BALPA, can't see the wood for the trees.
Anyone in FR who votes for recognition is simply running at speed towards the cliff edge: the recession hasn't bottomed and a double, or treble dip is looming over the horizon. Sit tight, keep taking the salary for 15 days work a month, keep picking up the sector pay, accept the payment for car parking, medicals, loss of licence and keep making your contributions to the pension so that the company keeps making theirs.
But above all, retain your dignity and respect: avoid the trip to the dole line.
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Aldente,
I have worked for BALPA airlines and know exactly how their corrupt negotiations, and the advice they base these on works.
Corrupt because the BALPA way is the way of disenfranchising the members, trading their terms and conditions for the "reward" of a TRE /TRI job or management job. The hardliners on this forum have confirmed this is the MO by accusing me of selling my soul a la BALPA in the fight to avoid recognition: something the colleagues who know me, and the FR management, will tell you is completely and utterly false.
I have worked for BALPA airlines and know exactly how their corrupt negotiations, and the advice they base these on works.
Corrupt because the BALPA way is the way of disenfranchising the members, trading their terms and conditions for the "reward" of a TRE /TRI job or management job. The hardliners on this forum have confirmed this is the MO by accusing me of selling my soul a la BALPA in the fight to avoid recognition: something the colleagues who know me, and the FR management, will tell you is completely and utterly false.
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danny, Yes, all of the things you talk about are with the Brookfield First Officers. I agree, the company have far too many of them, and recruiting more. BALPA can have, and do nothing for them, as they are self employed contractors. I do feel for some of them, but it is a situation they chose to accept when they decided on a shortcut to flying a big new jet.
Overall they still don't do too badly and the majority find a very quick route to their command.
If you must get involved in this debate, please learn the facts first!
Overall they still don't do too badly and the majority find a very quick route to their command.
If you must get involved in this debate, please learn the facts first!
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What I have just read is almost unbelievable.
That the BRK boys / girls do not count here has been confirmed.
Only the RYR pilots matter is the feeling I get here, and as long as the "I'm alright Jack" brigade are heard the rest of you ALL CC/ Engineeers / Ground Staff and Families can "GO FLY A KITE" and sod the consequences.
I have seen this happen so many time over the last 36 years, by BALPA clones who only consider themselves, and believe that BALPA will be the cure for all their perceived ill's.
I am sorry to say that I was once one of those clones but was able to see the light and work to benefit my colleagues in other ways.
If you can take any advice, put this recognition campaign on "HOLD" until the economic climate improves.
To RYR management, You can't blame a whole base for a few rotten eggs, especially when a large proportion are unable to be heard.
That the BRK boys / girls do not count here has been confirmed.
Only the RYR pilots matter is the feeling I get here, and as long as the "I'm alright Jack" brigade are heard the rest of you ALL CC/ Engineeers / Ground Staff and Families can "GO FLY A KITE" and sod the consequences.
I have seen this happen so many time over the last 36 years, by BALPA clones who only consider themselves, and believe that BALPA will be the cure for all their perceived ill's.
I am sorry to say that I was once one of those clones but was able to see the light and work to benefit my colleagues in other ways.
If you can take any advice, put this recognition campaign on "HOLD" until the economic climate improves.
To RYR management, You can't blame a whole base for a few rotten eggs, especially when a large proportion are unable to be heard.
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To any younger Ryanair pilots, who are possibly more likely to be swayed as they haven't been in the industry for that long, be wary about paying too much attention to the anti-BALPA rantings of some of the above posters. If their claims about their employment history are to be believed, they appear to be journeymen, i.e. those who switch from employer to employer. It's my experience that these sort of people tend to take a jaded, sometimes embittered view of unions, usually because they don't have the shared history of employees with longer service records, who see the important work that is done by the union year on year.
Ryanair is likely to be the career airline for most current Ryanair pilots as it's getting so big that there simply won't be the places at other airlines, at least in Europe. Ask yourself this, why aren't terms & conditions at other very large airlines, for example Lufthansa, & British Airways like those at Ryanair. Why don't those airlines employ legions of contractors? Why are their pilots well looked after if they get sick? Will their pilots be less or more wealthy in retirement compared to you? The answer is they are represented by a union. If unions and BALPA in particular was so bad, why would they have them? Go figure!
Good luck to all Ryanair pilots. You have to make a start somewhere if you want to make Ryanair into the airline it could be, i.e. like Southwest.
All those thousands and thousands of DLH, BA & Southwest pilots can't be wrong, surely? Make a start. That start is to vote yes for union recognition.
Ryanair is likely to be the career airline for most current Ryanair pilots as it's getting so big that there simply won't be the places at other airlines, at least in Europe. Ask yourself this, why aren't terms & conditions at other very large airlines, for example Lufthansa, & British Airways like those at Ryanair. Why don't those airlines employ legions of contractors? Why are their pilots well looked after if they get sick? Will their pilots be less or more wealthy in retirement compared to you? The answer is they are represented by a union. If unions and BALPA in particular was so bad, why would they have them? Go figure!
Good luck to all Ryanair pilots. You have to make a start somewhere if you want to make Ryanair into the airline it could be, i.e. like Southwest.
All those thousands and thousands of DLH, BA & Southwest pilots can't be wrong, surely? Make a start. That start is to vote yes for union recognition.
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I love the way the couple of ryanair stooges on here repeatedly try to suggest BALPA is some kind of sinister bullying organisation. If you could remove three or four posters from this argument, there would be no anti-BALPA support at all.
EVERYONE knows ryanair are a terrible employer, what's wrong with the employees trying to improve their lot? The only way improvement will happen is through BALPA as the company have proved on numerous occasions that they couldn't care less about crew or what the crew think.
If you don't have BALPA, your already industry bottom Ts and Cs will decline even more.
EVERYONE knows ryanair are a terrible employer, what's wrong with the employees trying to improve their lot? The only way improvement will happen is through BALPA as the company have proved on numerous occasions that they couldn't care less about crew or what the crew think.
If you don't have BALPA, your already industry bottom Ts and Cs will decline even more.
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I agree that terms and conditions will fall in the future.thats a given,as per usual.since my short time here i have noticed a decline.
TRSS just because you are comfortable with your situation does not mean everyone is in the same boat.Lets say for instance you were an FO about to do a command upgrade.Management would offer you a lower capt salary then previous and change your base to wherever they say.They will prob want to pay you 10% less if the base your sent to was a request.So thats a double whammy in reduction of terms.Is that fair? NO.You would be singing a different tune then,away from your loved EMA and sent to SNN.
I find the management threats and propaganda laughable.I hear from people on the line often that 'they must be scared'.They certainly ARE.Iv heard of dubious management actions at the stn base recently - again another example of illegal behaviour.
Figures of 90K are laughable.A regular capt( non trainer) sometimes earns less then a floating BRK FO ! Im sure ryr contract people want to move to a BRK at this stage.
TRSS just because you are comfortable with your situation does not mean everyone is in the same boat.Lets say for instance you were an FO about to do a command upgrade.Management would offer you a lower capt salary then previous and change your base to wherever they say.They will prob want to pay you 10% less if the base your sent to was a request.So thats a double whammy in reduction of terms.Is that fair? NO.You would be singing a different tune then,away from your loved EMA and sent to SNN.
I find the management threats and propaganda laughable.I hear from people on the line often that 'they must be scared'.They certainly ARE.Iv heard of dubious management actions at the stn base recently - again another example of illegal behaviour.
Figures of 90K are laughable.A regular capt( non trainer) sometimes earns less then a floating BRK FO ! Im sure ryr contract people want to move to a BRK at this stage.
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Stooges !!!
Anyone who knows who I am and there are many who do, will know that I have NO connection with RYR management or Training Departments.
I have met "Ash" and know many of the BRK pilots, but incase anyone considers me a Stooge, I am posting a purely impartial view as to BALPA and its relations with the airlines.
If my views don't meet with the jaundiced outlook of the "BALPA or Bust Brigade" that's just too bad for the you.
After 36+ years in this industry with many of them in BALPA and non BALPA companies, I feel that I have a right to post the facts as I see them, so as to bring some reason to the debate.
Advice is usually only taken if it conforms to the person's views receiving it.
In this case many of you will loose out, especially in the current Economic climate. More will be lost now than if this were to be resurrected in 2-3 years.
There is another UK company with similarities to the RYR - BALPA fight and in that fight it appears that BALPA just want another trophy on their shelves, and a few more 1% subscriptions into the coffers.
For those who post and are not RYR pilots, you may have good industrial relations between BALPA and Management, but this only works if the environment is one of trust, respect and co-operation.
This is obviously not going to happen in RYR.
Unless you include the WHOLE (RYR / BRK) pilot force in any vote it cannot represent the true will of a particular bases or group of bases.
The reason you wont include them is among the BALPA'ites there is a fear of a "NO" vote and 3 more years before you can try again.
Back off now and try again when the economy improves, see where BALPA leads in that time !!!.
Also if T&C's are further eroded or bases closed you can crow that "We were right".
Anyone who knows who I am and there are many who do, will know that I have NO connection with RYR management or Training Departments.
I have met "Ash" and know many of the BRK pilots, but incase anyone considers me a Stooge, I am posting a purely impartial view as to BALPA and its relations with the airlines.
If my views don't meet with the jaundiced outlook of the "BALPA or Bust Brigade" that's just too bad for the you.
After 36+ years in this industry with many of them in BALPA and non BALPA companies, I feel that I have a right to post the facts as I see them, so as to bring some reason to the debate.
Advice is usually only taken if it conforms to the person's views receiving it.
In this case many of you will loose out, especially in the current Economic climate. More will be lost now than if this were to be resurrected in 2-3 years.
There is another UK company with similarities to the RYR - BALPA fight and in that fight it appears that BALPA just want another trophy on their shelves, and a few more 1% subscriptions into the coffers.
For those who post and are not RYR pilots, you may have good industrial relations between BALPA and Management, but this only works if the environment is one of trust, respect and co-operation.
This is obviously not going to happen in RYR.
Unless you include the WHOLE (RYR / BRK) pilot force in any vote it cannot represent the true will of a particular bases or group of bases.
The reason you wont include them is among the BALPA'ites there is a fear of a "NO" vote and 3 more years before you can try again.
Back off now and try again when the economy improves, see where BALPA leads in that time !!!.
Also if T&C's are further eroded or bases closed you can crow that "We were right".
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Day Dreamer,
With 36+ years in this industry maybe you are approaching the Ryanair retirement age. With this in mind I can understand why you prefer to be on the side of the fence that terms and condition will be negotiated lower and lower year on year. The alternative might require some short term pain, and you'll have very little time to benefit from the gain.
Not a personal attack on you, just an observation of your circumstances.
Passenger numbers are up 13% this month year on year.
With the current management it will never be a good time to try and improve our conditions. As they have stated many times that they will not negotiate with it's Pilots.
With 36+ years in this industry maybe you are approaching the Ryanair retirement age. With this in mind I can understand why you prefer to be on the side of the fence that terms and condition will be negotiated lower and lower year on year. The alternative might require some short term pain, and you'll have very little time to benefit from the gain.
Not a personal attack on you, just an observation of your circumstances.
Passenger numbers are up 13% this month year on year.
With the current management it will never be a good time to try and improve our conditions. As they have stated many times that they will not negotiate with it's Pilots.
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intimidated Pilot
Pity you did not read my posts correctly, as I don't work for RYR.
EPR SET.
In the old days unions did some good, but BALPA lost their way by forgetting there were more pilots out there than BA.
They have only achieved much in the climate of proper trust, respect and a two way street.
Look at what is happening now, not just in RYR, BA, or the charter airlines.
Unions convince people they can improve things, but with confrontational management it is often impossible without Strike action.
It would take too long to explain my dealings with BALPA and this is not the place to do so.
Just let me say that they have let down more people than they have helped, and cost them 1% of salary per year.
They promise what they cannot realistically provide to encourage members and fill their coffers.
Pity you did not read my posts correctly, as I don't work for RYR.
EPR SET.
In the old days unions did some good, but BALPA lost their way by forgetting there were more pilots out there than BA.
They have only achieved much in the climate of proper trust, respect and a two way street.
Look at what is happening now, not just in RYR, BA, or the charter airlines.
Unions convince people they can improve things, but with confrontational management it is often impossible without Strike action.
It would take too long to explain my dealings with BALPA and this is not the place to do so.
Just let me say that they have let down more people than they have helped, and cost them 1% of salary per year.
They promise what they cannot realistically provide to encourage members and fill their coffers.
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People in glass gin palaces shouldn't throw stones.
Let BALPA put its' own house in order, spend less on dining, travel and fine wines, guarantee that pilots will have legal protection, regardless of whether BALPA think they have a case or not, with their own choice of legal team, cut the General Secretary's package to the same as a Ryanair Captain ( £50K fair Vexed?) and then they might have a chink of an opportunity to put a case to the pilots.
Let BALPA put its' own house in order, spend less on dining, travel and fine wines, guarantee that pilots will have legal protection, regardless of whether BALPA think they have a case or not, with their own choice of legal team, cut the General Secretary's package to the same as a Ryanair Captain ( £50K fair Vexed?) and then they might have a chink of an opportunity to put a case to the pilots.
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slim - you are sounding more and more like the ryanair propoganda union busting maching day after day.use your own iniative and formulate your own thoughts.we have heard all your mol soundbites again and again.the soundbites which are so blatantly put together by the union busters from the states that ryanair has on it's books.why not pay your employees fair terms and conditions out of the hundreds of thousands paid to the union busters.
heres a novel idea,cut ryanairs ceo package to that of a ryanair captain and level the playing field.will never happen,king molly is happy to sit in his ivory tower and direct his henchmen to do his dirty work.that is why he hires union busters and sends his minnions to perjure themselves in court.he is a COWARD
of the highest order and those that follow his ethic are proven idiots.
hurry home lest (abusing) try extra curricular dissuation techniques on those fine upstanding pilots at your base.
heres a novel idea,cut ryanairs ceo package to that of a ryanair captain and level the playing field.will never happen,king molly is happy to sit in his ivory tower and direct his henchmen to do his dirty work.that is why he hires union busters and sends his minnions to perjure themselves in court.he is a COWARD
of the highest order and those that follow his ethic are proven idiots.
hurry home lest (abusing) try extra curricular dissuation techniques on those fine upstanding pilots at your base.
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This thread is so funny.......
The pro BALPA lot want to get the union in to stop their T&C being further reduced, The anti BALPA lot want to keep them out to stop their T& C being further reduced. The bottom line is both camps are stuffed, MOL has your (lack off) balls in his hand and he will squeeze until your are working for nothing.
Forget BALPA, get a group together and go and see Bob Crowe of the RMT (rail, maritime& transport) he is the suitable anti matter to deal with MOL
Full credit to MOL for realisng that most pilots do what they do out of pride and has such can be abused
For the CC on here, the second P in Pprune stands for pilots,
you no nothing or at best very little of the work/effort/cost that goes into getting the first P of Pprune.
Most CC at Ryanair have been suckered into the same dream that a number of cadets are in
If MOL stays much longer then your all it will end in tears or some pilot deep in debt with a wife in another country with another man will think i have had enough and 180+ 0.99p ticket holders will be dead, game over
The only thing going for BALPA here is that MOL doesn't want them, sooner or later he will upset some Eastern European gang boss and his number will be up
The Face
Forget BALPA, get a group together and go and see Bob Crowe of the RMT (rail, maritime& transport) he is the suitable anti matter to deal with MOL
Full credit to MOL for realisng that most pilots do what they do out of pride and has such can be abused
For the CC on here, the second P in Pprune stands for pilots,
you no nothing or at best very little of the work/effort/cost that goes into getting the first P of Pprune.Most CC at Ryanair have been suckered into the same dream that a number of cadets are in
If MOL stays much longer then your all
it will end in tears or some pilot deep in debt with a wife in another country with another man will think i have had enough and 180+ 0.99p ticket holders will be dead, game overThe only thing going for BALPA here is that MOL doesn't want them, sooner or later he will upset some Eastern European gang boss and his number will be up
The Face
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True Colours.
Ah, the truth will out.
Dear Ryanair colleagues,
I'd wondered what it was that had put a wild hair up the arse of BLAPA. Given their lethargic history and slovenly instincts, BLAPA's actions in pursuit of Ryanair could be described as rather like Robbie Coltrane running the four-minute mile! Aha, but what's this? The smoking gun.
In case you, too, had wondered why it was that the historical inertia of BLAPA, when it comes to matters Ryanair, has recently been eclipsed by an indelicate haste for recognition, here, from a recent newsletter, is their raisons d'état; the killer app.
Aha, so that's what's bothering BLAPA. In that case, I say bring on the Tories. Someone should alert that nice old Etonian with a fondness for coke, that BLAPA are circling the drain. Hurrah!
Dear Ryanair colleagues,
I'd wondered what it was that had put a wild hair up the arse of BLAPA. Given their lethargic history and slovenly instincts, BLAPA's actions in pursuit of Ryanair could be described as rather like Robbie Coltrane running the four-minute mile! Aha, but what's this? The smoking gun.
In case you, too, had wondered why it was that the historical inertia of BLAPA, when it comes to matters Ryanair, has recently been eclipsed by an indelicate haste for recognition, here, from a recent newsletter, is their raisons d'état; the killer app.
A change in Government could see the legislation for recognition wiped
out and Ryanair’s increased seasonal work will probably mean fewer
pilots are needed to work under a permanent contract.
out and Ryanair’s increased seasonal work will probably mean fewer
pilots are needed to work under a permanent contract.
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Maybe you have not seen it,leo horses ass,but the truth is outing here.the truth about ryanairs union busting tactics,threats,bullying and intimidation!the blatant abuse of it employees and the prevention of human beings their rights to associate and right to free speech.
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Where do you vote NO to Balpa recognition ?
For those Ryanair pilots who don't want Balpa recognition and for that reason did'nt register themselves with Balpa (Ballot on Balpa internet site) i suggest that you personally contact Balpa to make a statement that you, on wathever base you might be at, do NOT want a recognition on your base and that your vote is a NO.
I did that on an e-mail (adress is on Balpas homepage, as I just learned that I am not allowed to print it here) requesting a confirmation that the e-mail had been recieved and read.
If the case is that 10% on your base has requested recognition, maybe your vote this way will change that percentage of the voters, worth a try anyway.
I did that on an e-mail (adress is on Balpas homepage, as I just learned that I am not allowed to print it here) requesting a confirmation that the e-mail had been recieved and read.
If the case is that 10% on your base has requested recognition, maybe your vote this way will change that percentage of the voters, worth a try anyway.
Last edited by UK Viking; 7th Jul 2009 at 11:56.
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For the CC on here, the second P in Pprune stands for pilots, 
you no nothing or at best very little of the work/effort/cost that goes into getting the first P of Pprune.
you no nothing or at best very little of the work/effort/cost that goes into getting the first P of Pprune.
At least I know how to spell, and i never use text speak.
I was going to call you an idiot, but i won't.