Why Do Well Sell Ourselves So Short????
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Why Do Well Sell Ourselves So Short????
Ladies and Gentleman,
There is so much discussion on various topics on this entire website.So much so that, in my opinion, we have lost sight of the real issues for pilots.
Lets make a comparison.
Hi my name is Mike I have recently qualified as a surgon after seven years. I am currently working on a specialty. We perform three plus surgeries a week. I am very happy as I love my job and my salery is heading well into the six figures once I gain a good repuation. My major concern is if I screw up someday someone might die!!! but at least if I did my best I will be ok.
Hi my name is John and I have recently qualified as a captain with a well known low cost airline. While I am enjoying it I am finding that my capacity to deal with situations is been streched due to the fact I am flying with inexpierenced first officers who dont seam to care as much as i did.
Also my financial situation is not great at the moment as I am still paying a 80k(average) euro loan for my training plus the recent 5k expense to get my promotion.
BUT my main worry every night is the fact that if I make a mistake it could result in nearly 200 hundred people dying including me. Never mind the national papers looking over our shoulders ever day trying to disgrace us.
I long for some proper respect for my skills.
Guys this is the reality. We are trusted with the lives of a lot of people every day. It is not worth it unless we are been properly compensated. We need to stand together to stop the destruction of our career. SOMEDAY SOON IT WILL BE BETTER TO BE DRIVING A BUS AROUND LONDON.
For all potential command upgrades its not worth it with the current terms on offer!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rant over please discuss
There is so much discussion on various topics on this entire website.So much so that, in my opinion, we have lost sight of the real issues for pilots.
Lets make a comparison.
Hi my name is Mike I have recently qualified as a surgon after seven years. I am currently working on a specialty. We perform three plus surgeries a week. I am very happy as I love my job and my salery is heading well into the six figures once I gain a good repuation. My major concern is if I screw up someday someone might die!!! but at least if I did my best I will be ok.
Hi my name is John and I have recently qualified as a captain with a well known low cost airline. While I am enjoying it I am finding that my capacity to deal with situations is been streched due to the fact I am flying with inexpierenced first officers who dont seam to care as much as i did.
Also my financial situation is not great at the moment as I am still paying a 80k(average) euro loan for my training plus the recent 5k expense to get my promotion.
BUT my main worry every night is the fact that if I make a mistake it could result in nearly 200 hundred people dying including me. Never mind the national papers looking over our shoulders ever day trying to disgrace us.
I long for some proper respect for my skills.
Guys this is the reality. We are trusted with the lives of a lot of people every day. It is not worth it unless we are been properly compensated. We need to stand together to stop the destruction of our career. SOMEDAY SOON IT WILL BE BETTER TO BE DRIVING A BUS AROUND LONDON.
For all potential command upgrades its not worth it with the current terms on offer!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rant over please discuss
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and another......
My name is Bob
Im a licenced engineer, B1, B2, C. Multi type rated.
I spent 5 years training, 15 years experience, I have no recognised qualification in the greater engineering industry. I am treated with contempt by all office staff including management (this seems to be a requirement) and for the responsibility of releasing an aircraft back into service........45K!
My name is Bob
Im a licenced engineer, B1, B2, C. Multi type rated.
I spent 5 years training, 15 years experience, I have no recognised qualification in the greater engineering industry. I am treated with contempt by all office staff including management (this seems to be a requirement) and for the responsibility of releasing an aircraft back into service........45K!
WHAT? ARE YOU ALL INSANE?! Let me give you another scenario
Hi,
My name is Jack Hall, I work as a HR Consultant and make a very poor 80K a year (No debts to pay off though except the usual house and such!), I have a lot of pressure on my shoulders to get results by my boss, its really hard. So when I get my 9 weeks off a year I really need to get out of town sometimes and relax on a sunny beach with paid leave for a few weeks of that and I simply cannot do that unless I can buy the cheapest possible ticket so as to enjoy a few extra martinis by the pool!
Yeah... i'm not being serious as you might have guess, I just thought i'd put joe public SLFs opinion in here!
Hi,
My name is Jack Hall, I work as a HR Consultant and make a very poor 80K a year (No debts to pay off though except the usual house and such!), I have a lot of pressure on my shoulders to get results by my boss, its really hard. So when I get my 9 weeks off a year I really need to get out of town sometimes and relax on a sunny beach with paid leave for a few weeks of that and I simply cannot do that unless I can buy the cheapest possible ticket so as to enjoy a few extra martinis by the pool!
Yeah... i'm not being serious as you might have guess, I just thought i'd put joe public SLFs opinion in here!
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Hi. I was a low-cost airline FO. I made a reasonably good salary, but had to pay £15k (about 10% of my salary over 3 years) to get the job in the first place. I got what equates to 6 weeks off a year. I have to take them as whole weeks, sometimes from midweek to midweek (so only 1 weekend during that holiday), and had to book my leave 4 to 7 months in advance. There was no flexibilty to allow me to take a few days off with 4 or 6 weeks notice (or even less) without faking a sickie, for family occasions such as weddings, or just to be at a family party. I found that I had to take a week of leave every other month just to stay roughly fit enough to do my job without too much fatigue, and the first 3 or 4 days of my week's leave, especially in the summer season, was spent just catching up on sleep, and feeling like a zombie, and not really being very sociable to my nearest, and dearest. I was made redundant recently with a minimum statutory package, and a week before my IR expired: the company wasn't willing to let me renew my rating in the sim, just by way of good will thus making it that bit more difficult to get re-employed. They also failed to send a reply to a number of queries that I posed regarding various matters around the redundancy. Staff travel was barely any saving over some of the normal priced seats, and considerably more expensive than some of the promotional offers, and the seats were all standby. The company consistently rode rough shod over my contract, especially when it came to redundancy. When I was flying the company gave me a bottle of water (it was 2 litre one), and coffee: the rest I had to provide for myself for a 10 or 11 hour duty day.
SLF don't know what goes on to get infront of the locked door at the front...
The upsides are that I got to work with some great people in the aeroplane, and got to see some fabulous views.
SLF don't know what goes on to get infront of the locked door at the front...
The upsides are that I got to work with some great people in the aeroplane, and got to see some fabulous views.
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Selling cheaply!
Its called market forces and bums on pilots seats. If there is an oversupply of pilots the pay goes down quite simply because if there a two similalry qualified pilots, one who requires a salary of £60,000 whilst the other will work for £50,000 them which will the employer go for?
The playing field is never level however, with Ex BA pilots retiring at an early age with mega pensions and taking normal line jobs. It is alleged that some EX BA captains, (working for a LoCo up North) that their pension is larger than their LoCo salary.
Still you should never listen to rumours, OOps sorry this is a rumour network.
The playing field is never level however, with Ex BA pilots retiring at an early age with mega pensions and taking normal line jobs. It is alleged that some EX BA captains, (working for a LoCo up North) that their pension is larger than their LoCo salary.
Still you should never listen to rumours, OOps sorry this is a rumour network.
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Greed mainly. Oh and queue jumping are to blame in my opinion. Its also relatively easy to become a pilot. Its a process of self selection afterall only limited by your ability to find the cash to fund the training.
In medicine I can't wake up and decide I am going to be a doctor and head off to a lecture the next day. There are barriers to entry to ensure I have the requisite level of skill and acumen needed to hopefully pass the course. In aviation anybody can wake up and decide they want to be a pilot. They can take as many attempts to pass tests as the rules allow and then fire off as many CV's. Hell they might even strike it lucky and pass the sim ride and interviews. Then a bit more cash to fund a type rating and hey presto.
Problem is that we live in a culture of "I want it now". TV and society tell young people that they can have everything they ever dreamed of without waiting. No need to live with mum and dad and save up for that first house when you can rack up extortionate amounts of debt and declare yourself bankrupt and come back for another shot in a few years time.
Taking those sentiments to aviation its easy to see that along comes someone like FR and says give me some cash and I will give you a shiny big 70t jet to fly. Don't worry though cos I am going to pay you sh*te but in just two years you will have 1800 hours and you can toddle off to a proper airline that pays a fair wage and has T&C's and get all your money back ten fold.
Problem is there aren't any of these "proper airlines" anymore and the industry wide T&C's will never ever get back to where they were.
In medicine I can't wake up and decide I am going to be a doctor and head off to a lecture the next day. There are barriers to entry to ensure I have the requisite level of skill and acumen needed to hopefully pass the course. In aviation anybody can wake up and decide they want to be a pilot. They can take as many attempts to pass tests as the rules allow and then fire off as many CV's. Hell they might even strike it lucky and pass the sim ride and interviews. Then a bit more cash to fund a type rating and hey presto.
Problem is that we live in a culture of "I want it now". TV and society tell young people that they can have everything they ever dreamed of without waiting. No need to live with mum and dad and save up for that first house when you can rack up extortionate amounts of debt and declare yourself bankrupt and come back for another shot in a few years time.
Taking those sentiments to aviation its easy to see that along comes someone like FR and says give me some cash and I will give you a shiny big 70t jet to fly. Don't worry though cos I am going to pay you sh*te but in just two years you will have 1800 hours and you can toddle off to a proper airline that pays a fair wage and has T&C's and get all your money back ten fold.
Problem is there aren't any of these "proper airlines" anymore and the industry wide T&C's will never ever get back to where they were.
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Perhaps the comparison between the medical and pilot professions highlights the problem in a nutshell. Medical training is carried out by government sponsored institutions which require high levels of qualification to enter. Whereas pilot training is an entirely private enterprise, and it would be a self defeating exercise for private enterprises to demand high standards of qualifications to enter, as they then would be required to pay accordingly.
Thus it is entirely beneficial to the said enterprises that, in theory, anyone with one or two basic qualifications and a large enough supply of ready cash can get themselves trained.
However, on the whole, in my experience, deep pockets don't guarantee a job, no matter how short you are prepared to sell yourself.
What they do mean is that there is a large pool of potential candidates for airlines to cherry pick the best, and as long as you have a basic grasp of economics (unlike Gordon Brown), and can understand the relationship of supply and demand, take home pay is unlikely to reflect the true worth of the responsibility and skills we undertake and possess.
So a bit more deglamourization of the piloting job, i.e. more emphasis on the long hours, multi-layered pressures, 6 month career checks, and, of course, our friends in airport security would serve to increase the T&Cs for us, the participants, as less people would offer themselves up as candidates in the future, and maybe, just maybe the supply and demand balance might re-adjust.
Thus it is entirely beneficial to the said enterprises that, in theory, anyone with one or two basic qualifications and a large enough supply of ready cash can get themselves trained.
However, on the whole, in my experience, deep pockets don't guarantee a job, no matter how short you are prepared to sell yourself.
What they do mean is that there is a large pool of potential candidates for airlines to cherry pick the best, and as long as you have a basic grasp of economics (unlike Gordon Brown), and can understand the relationship of supply and demand, take home pay is unlikely to reflect the true worth of the responsibility and skills we undertake and possess.
So a bit more deglamourization of the piloting job, i.e. more emphasis on the long hours, multi-layered pressures, 6 month career checks, and, of course, our friends in airport security would serve to increase the T&Cs for us, the participants, as less people would offer themselves up as candidates in the future, and maybe, just maybe the supply and demand balance might re-adjust.
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I paid for my own pilot training up to IR / MCC and I make no apologies for doing so, however it took me 15 years of another career and a Bachelors and Masters degree in order to get into a financial position to do so. (as well as giving me a reasonable 'fallback' in case it all went pear shaped)
The current glut of trainees is due almost entirely to the ease of borrowing money - how many of the 20 somethings at Oxford could actually 'afford' the training (i.e write a cheque) compared with how many could borrow the money?
This flow of cheap easy credit has now stopped - for ever - so I think there will be a slow but sure adjustment as the pool of available pilots slowly empties. Of course people with deep pockets will still do the training, but when you are risking your own money and not the banks then its a different prospect.
The current glut of trainees is due almost entirely to the ease of borrowing money - how many of the 20 somethings at Oxford could actually 'afford' the training (i.e write a cheque) compared with how many could borrow the money?
This flow of cheap easy credit has now stopped - for ever - so I think there will be a slow but sure adjustment as the pool of available pilots slowly empties. Of course people with deep pockets will still do the training, but when you are risking your own money and not the banks then its a different prospect.
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Really enjoyed that 757 Driver:
I also started late in aviation, at 34, for the same reasons you state: finances were not available after mortgage, wife and son expenses, plus all the rest we all have to face monthly. Plus, I was a "professional" musician.
The point is, I agree with you in that in the present easy-money, fast-food culture, it makes for a lot of todays young pilots getting typed and then seeking their fortune at finding a steady airline job, without vocation at all in some cases.
I was only able to gain experience by leaving home and spending 6 years flying in USA, getting home to europe, wife and son maybe twice a year. When I returned I was lucky and there was a demand for direct entry captains. I flew my butt off, transitioned from turbos to jets and in the course of company moves, even once paid for a 737 type to gaurantee a job after the towers 9/11.
I agree that with the current economic crash, vocational candidates will prevail as they will be guys who like you and me, fought and sacrificed to reach our place in cockpit, against many many odds, sort of like a trout fish swimming against the current whilst surrounded by hungry bears
I also started late in aviation, at 34, for the same reasons you state: finances were not available after mortgage, wife and son expenses, plus all the rest we all have to face monthly. Plus, I was a "professional" musician.
The point is, I agree with you in that in the present easy-money, fast-food culture, it makes for a lot of todays young pilots getting typed and then seeking their fortune at finding a steady airline job, without vocation at all in some cases.
I was only able to gain experience by leaving home and spending 6 years flying in USA, getting home to europe, wife and son maybe twice a year. When I returned I was lucky and there was a demand for direct entry captains. I flew my butt off, transitioned from turbos to jets and in the course of company moves, even once paid for a 737 type to gaurantee a job after the towers 9/11.
I agree that with the current economic crash, vocational candidates will prevail as they will be guys who like you and me, fought and sacrificed to reach our place in cockpit, against many many odds, sort of like a trout fish swimming against the current whilst surrounded by hungry bears
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Reason in the last 10 years is NINJA loans for flight training. Hopefully due to the banking problems we are at the end of this practice.
Did you know ABM Amro bank (or RBS fame) was supplying NINJA loans to Dutch pilot wannabies?
I feel sorry for the lads, they are indebted for the first half of their careers and therefore easy meat for the airline management to bully.
Did you know ABM Amro bank (or RBS fame) was supplying NINJA loans to Dutch pilot wannabies?
I feel sorry for the lads, they are indebted for the first half of their careers and therefore easy meat for the airline management to bully.
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Not every student can become a doctor!
but.........
Every idiot can become an airline pilot nowadays. Sounds harsh.... But it's true!!
In the Netherlands there are more then 1000 pilots trained a year. While there are only 300 job openings at the Dutch airlines a year.....Some guys are so desperate for a job that they are willing to pay. They are the guilty ones in my view!
but.........
Every idiot can become an airline pilot nowadays. Sounds harsh.... But it's true!!
In the Netherlands there are more then 1000 pilots trained a year. While there are only 300 job openings at the Dutch airlines a year.....Some guys are so desperate for a job that they are willing to pay. They are the guilty ones in my view!
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Your answer in a nutshell
The last post by King fish or whatever his name is would'nt come from the mouth of a self respecting educated Doctor. Oh and by the way don't try to put yourself on a par with a GP or a Surgeon because your not guys, ATPL is not medical school and never will be. You rant and rave about how you should all be flying Airbus or Boeing with 200 hrs, well yeh this industry does work on market forces if they need you your in if not well take what you have and wait a while gaining experience and good flying time until the right opportunity comes along. I too enjoy my job but I enjoy my Kids and family more. I fortunately work for one of the more desirable employers in the UK and my advice would be dont just take the job because it gives you a preferable rating even if you have to pay for it (by the way even that option was never a desirable one to me.) Wait until the right employer comes along that can offer you a stable future within this futile industry and make the most of the opportunity you have at that interview. Please Guys have some self respect and dignity and know your worth, if we all had this view then collectively we might progress as a profession !!!
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The problem is
The rise of the low cost operators looking to employ those who can be sold a dream through " the quick route".
You too can be an airline pilot earning megabucks .. just sign here.
the TRTO's supply the cannon fodder which undermine the people who are born to the business through guts and hard work.
I have watched a family member go through this Florida training process, and the poor guy despite his "House in a book" quick fix training complete with A320 type rating fall at the last hurdle because he could not cut it on a nasty day for the base check.
What is the answer ?
When passengers start dying in sufficient numbers because they have systems operators rather than pilots in charge of their aircraft there might be a few questions asked, otherwise it is the power of the advertised fare, and the questionable practices that make that fare possible.
That is where it is heading and I have enough hours with zero time F/O's to speak on the matter.
"Hey the planned route would take us via the SID directly through a wall of forecast thunderstorms which we cannot out climb over the Alps at night .. what is your opinion ?" blank look....
"What if we take the fuel to go around them ?" blank look.
That is where we are headed ... and when I and the likes of me retire .. that is what you have to look after your nearest and dearest.
enjoy !
You too can be an airline pilot earning megabucks .. just sign here.
the TRTO's supply the cannon fodder which undermine the people who are born to the business through guts and hard work.
I have watched a family member go through this Florida training process, and the poor guy despite his "House in a book" quick fix training complete with A320 type rating fall at the last hurdle because he could not cut it on a nasty day for the base check.
What is the answer ?
When passengers start dying in sufficient numbers because they have systems operators rather than pilots in charge of their aircraft there might be a few questions asked, otherwise it is the power of the advertised fare, and the questionable practices that make that fare possible.
That is where it is heading and I have enough hours with zero time F/O's to speak on the matter.
"Hey the planned route would take us via the SID directly through a wall of forecast thunderstorms which we cannot out climb over the Alps at night .. what is your opinion ?" blank look....
"What if we take the fuel to go around them ?" blank look.
That is where we are headed ... and when I and the likes of me retire .. that is what you have to look after your nearest and dearest.
enjoy !
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From my experience it is not money that motivates the majority of the young people entering this industry. They are smart enough to be able to earn similar salaries in other fields if they applied themselves. But I just wish they knew the truth of life on the line. After a while its just a job. The early starts (and there are alot of them) are not fun. Either because you are on sby or preparing for a sim or some other reason the quality time at home is illusive. For whatever reason we don't seem to live all that long etc etc. The number of guys I meet who had they known then what they know now would not have gone into flying is amazing!.
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Hi Paddy23
I have been to the EU in Brussels on last friday. They are willing to "investigate" the pilot's status but of course we all need to report our problems on their official web site. Each report will be classified and analyzed.
All together we can stop this disaster.
Vladimír ?pidla - EU Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities
top right click on "contact me"
All together we can stop this disaster.
Vladimír ?pidla - EU Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities
top right click on "contact me"
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Semenmaster
'self respecting educated Doctor' these wouldn't be the same doctors who have to have their stomachs pumped after a bout of drinking? I used to work in medicine so know what you're talking about before opening your big gob!
'self respecting educated Doctor' these wouldn't be the same doctors who have to have their stomachs pumped after a bout of drinking? I used to work in medicine so know what you're talking about before opening your big gob!
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I know that we are all probably very good pilots and... that we post on here sometimes after long duty days and...English is sometimes not our native language but...
your/you're
surgon/surgeon
salery/salary
e.t.c....
Perhaps you think that's pedantic but none of my relatives in the medical/legal/academic world would ever make such mistakes.
Additionally..
People are jealous of our lifestyle (we all know that the truth is somewhat different) and will have a pop at us in lots of ways. If we give them enough ammunition they will use it. So when we moan about being(been!) undervalued, think about the last time a TV company was able to make a fly on the wall documentary about airline crews 'misbehaving' down route - whatever form that may have taken and however one-sided the story- and think about the damage done to our reputation in this way. We could do an awful lot more to paint ourselves in a better light..
When we complain about not getting enough rest/time off/respect, the public, quite naturally, afford us little sympathy.
There is not one day, of the years that I have spent flying, that I would exchange for any other job - not one - and I came to the job late in life after a career in the corporate world, earning enough money to complete flight training. A bloody hard route to the best job in the world and the opportunity to work with some of the most professional and decent human beings it has been my pleasure to know.
As the great Clint Eastwood once said..
'Don't p**s down my back and then tell me it's raining..'
And on that cryptic note..safe flying everyone!
your/you're
surgon/surgeon
salery/salary
e.t.c....
Perhaps you think that's pedantic but none of my relatives in the medical/legal/academic world would ever make such mistakes.
Additionally..
People are jealous of our lifestyle (we all know that the truth is somewhat different) and will have a pop at us in lots of ways. If we give them enough ammunition they will use it. So when we moan about being(been!) undervalued, think about the last time a TV company was able to make a fly on the wall documentary about airline crews 'misbehaving' down route - whatever form that may have taken and however one-sided the story- and think about the damage done to our reputation in this way. We could do an awful lot more to paint ourselves in a better light..
When we complain about not getting enough rest/time off/respect, the public, quite naturally, afford us little sympathy.
There is not one day, of the years that I have spent flying, that I would exchange for any other job - not one - and I came to the job late in life after a career in the corporate world, earning enough money to complete flight training. A bloody hard route to the best job in the world and the opportunity to work with some of the most professional and decent human beings it has been my pleasure to know.
As the great Clint Eastwood once said..
'Don't p**s down my back and then tell me it's raining..'
And on that cryptic note..safe flying everyone!