Ryanair AGAIN!!!
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I have worked for many companies over the years and all of them have their good points, as well as bad points, some more than others. That said, Ryanair has its fair share of bad points but not enough to make it the worst job in aviation. If that were the case, they would have real trouble recruiting pilots, new cadets, as well as experienced Captains.
Some posters decry the pilot community in Ryanair, calling them wimps and spineless, or worse, for their lack of progress when it comes to BALPA/IALPA etc. To them I would just say this; 'Union recognition' only works if both parties recognise one another. MO'L will simply refuse to allow any BALPA representative over the doorstep of his office. As long as he ignores BALPA, they remain powerless. There will be absolutely no progress while he and his ilk are in charge in Ryanair.
Ryanair pilots are diverse both geographically and racially, they are on different contracts at different bases. Some are permanent and some contractors. Concerted action by all of them on one or more days is almost impossible to organise. It might be what the vast majority of the Ryanair pilots are striving to achieve, but in reality, it will be very difficult to achieve under the present system. As time goes by, MO'L makes the company even more widely dispersed and more widely diverse, making any concerted action even less likely.
Some posters accuse Ryanair pilots of being spineless and wimps, particularly a few on PPRUNE; to them I say, reality sucks sometimes and being rude to Ryaniar pilots is nothing short of cowardly and ignorant of the facts of life here. So stop telling us to get our house in order and make sure your own defences are prepared for the management realisation that Ryanair is the most profitable airline in Europe, if not the world. You will be next, not because of our lack of action, but because of our inabilty to overcome what is a very well thought out and executed strategy on the part of the most succesful airline manager we have seen in recent years. I hate the situation just as much as the rest of us and you, but it is as it is, as the Pope once said.
Sorry to be so pessimistic but, as I say, reality sucks.
Some posters decry the pilot community in Ryanair, calling them wimps and spineless, or worse, for their lack of progress when it comes to BALPA/IALPA etc. To them I would just say this; 'Union recognition' only works if both parties recognise one another. MO'L will simply refuse to allow any BALPA representative over the doorstep of his office. As long as he ignores BALPA, they remain powerless. There will be absolutely no progress while he and his ilk are in charge in Ryanair.
Ryanair pilots are diverse both geographically and racially, they are on different contracts at different bases. Some are permanent and some contractors. Concerted action by all of them on one or more days is almost impossible to organise. It might be what the vast majority of the Ryanair pilots are striving to achieve, but in reality, it will be very difficult to achieve under the present system. As time goes by, MO'L makes the company even more widely dispersed and more widely diverse, making any concerted action even less likely.
Some posters accuse Ryanair pilots of being spineless and wimps, particularly a few on PPRUNE; to them I say, reality sucks sometimes and being rude to Ryaniar pilots is nothing short of cowardly and ignorant of the facts of life here. So stop telling us to get our house in order and make sure your own defences are prepared for the management realisation that Ryanair is the most profitable airline in Europe, if not the world. You will be next, not because of our lack of action, but because of our inabilty to overcome what is a very well thought out and executed strategy on the part of the most succesful airline manager we have seen in recent years. I hate the situation just as much as the rest of us and you, but it is as it is, as the Pope once said.
Sorry to be so pessimistic but, as I say, reality sucks.
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. MO'L will simply refuse to allow any BALPA representative over the doorstep of his office. As long as he ignores BALPA, they remain powerless. There will be absolutely no progress while he and his ilk are in charge in Ryanair.
No one is under any illusions about that. The point is that in the UK we would have a legal entitlement to meet a representative of the company. If they don't negotiate with us then we use direct action up to and including strike action to force meaningful negotiations. Anyone with any sense knows that Ryanair will need to have their arm twisted to breaking point before they will fall into line. I still believe this is entirely possible, and if the rest of us did all this would occur very quickly. The one thing I don't know is how we can convince our colleagues of this, that is the divide we need to bridge. The one thing I do know is giving up is not an option, otherwise this career is finished, at any airline.
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spineless???
any of you loudmouth idiots have the balls to meet anywhere, anytime in the real world-(not this "e-world") and tell me to my face that i am "spineless?"
send me a PM!
i work there, am a member of BALPA and talk to all the FO's about joining any union.
stop looking at your own nose and realize that many of us can't jump ship like we could when we were younger. and we cannot, as individuals, change the airline overnight.
send me a PM!
i work there, am a member of BALPA and talk to all the FO's about joining any union.
stop looking at your own nose and realize that many of us can't jump ship like we could when we were younger. and we cannot, as individuals, change the airline overnight.
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Carmoisine has it about right; Hudson Bay is a sad example of getting it totally wrong. Calling Ryanair pilots spineless, etc. will achieve nothing for him and others like him. If he is so sure that the reason Ryanair pilots are in the position they are in simply because they are happy to roll over and accept the crappy conditions thrust upon them, then he would be entirely correct. However, the pilot body is almost unanimous in their attitude to the Ryanair management but are essentially powerless in the face of MOL and BALPA's lack of action.
This inaction stems from the almost hopeless position the pilots and the unions find themselves when facing MOL and his Irish lawyers. Recognition of BALPA or any other Union in Ryanair will be a long and uphill struggle even if 90% of the pilots voted in favour. MOL will simply ignore them, fire them, move them, close a base here and there, reduce their pay further and generally demoralise them further than they already are. So what is the way forward?
Come on Hudson Bay, give us your ideas instead of wailing about the attitude of the Ryanair pilots. Do some constructive thinking and let us know how you can help us out of this mess.
You are right in thinking that the cancer will spread to you and others like you if nothing is done. MOL is the role model for all CEOs and Financial Directors around the world, revered as the face of modern management.
Stand United and fight? You can't fight with one hand tied behind your back and an enemy that you will never meet.
Reams have been written here and elsewhere on this subject and over the past several years, absolutely no progress has been made. Don't pin it on the Ryanair pilots who have been struggling for years under the terms and conditions imposed on them.
Change, sadly, might well never come about in the Ryanair pilots favour and blaming them for it is a waste of energy. Better to direct your anger and wrath at MOL and his like. Write to your MP and MEP. Write to the TUC and Unison, write to the press, repeatedly and often.
Or simply shut the f++k up.
Happy New Year.
This inaction stems from the almost hopeless position the pilots and the unions find themselves when facing MOL and his Irish lawyers. Recognition of BALPA or any other Union in Ryanair will be a long and uphill struggle even if 90% of the pilots voted in favour. MOL will simply ignore them, fire them, move them, close a base here and there, reduce their pay further and generally demoralise them further than they already are. So what is the way forward?
Come on Hudson Bay, give us your ideas instead of wailing about the attitude of the Ryanair pilots. Do some constructive thinking and let us know how you can help us out of this mess.
You are right in thinking that the cancer will spread to you and others like you if nothing is done. MOL is the role model for all CEOs and Financial Directors around the world, revered as the face of modern management.
Stand United and fight? You can't fight with one hand tied behind your back and an enemy that you will never meet.
Reams have been written here and elsewhere on this subject and over the past several years, absolutely no progress has been made. Don't pin it on the Ryanair pilots who have been struggling for years under the terms and conditions imposed on them.
Change, sadly, might well never come about in the Ryanair pilots favour and blaming them for it is a waste of energy. Better to direct your anger and wrath at MOL and his like. Write to your MP and MEP. Write to the TUC and Unison, write to the press, repeatedly and often.
Or simply shut the f++k up.
Happy New Year.
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Correct me if I'm wrong please.
MOL sold the majority of his shares a good while ago.
He will depart RYR a very rich man.
RYR are selling off their early 800s already for more than they paid for them, adding to the company profits, even though pax revenue is down.
The company will still make a profit on paper for another few years even though the actual operation will be making a loss.
Some brand new 800s are going to other airlines at a profit because RYR cannot crew them.
We have allowed this cancer to spread by apathy and we now are suffering the consequences.
CAA and IAA are culpable.
He will depart RYR a very rich man.
RYR are selling off their early 800s already for more than they paid for them, adding to the company profits, even though pax revenue is down.
The company will still make a profit on paper for another few years even though the actual operation will be making a loss.
Some brand new 800s are going to other airlines at a profit because RYR cannot crew them.
We have allowed this cancer to spread by apathy and we now are suffering the consequences.
CAA and IAA are culpable.
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Nice to see you folks woke up. Must be too much chrimbo pud.
I stand by what I said. It is you pilots that just roll over each time MOL changes your conditions. Ryanair will recruit and breed a certain type of person just like any other airline. In this case it appears they enjoy the company of people that won't answer back.
I have worked for a number of airlines and have changed things for the better single handily by being proactive in the correct manner. I have never been part of any union because I believe that the contract I sign is the rules both my company and myself play by. If the company deviate then I will protest if it is not in my interest. If the company still refuse to comply with my contract they are given two choices. a) We go to court b) They loose my professional services. Simple.
Stop being concerned with Licences, ratings and how much better you are at landing an aircraft than your counterpart in the other seat and concentrate on your quality of life.
Stand up for yourselves, you are the ones in the driving seat. Just look around at the amount of airlines out there. The Aviation industry has never been healthier and being dictated to by somebody like MOL says to me you have no backbone.
I stand by what I said. It is you pilots that just roll over each time MOL changes your conditions. Ryanair will recruit and breed a certain type of person just like any other airline. In this case it appears they enjoy the company of people that won't answer back.
I have worked for a number of airlines and have changed things for the better single handily by being proactive in the correct manner. I have never been part of any union because I believe that the contract I sign is the rules both my company and myself play by. If the company deviate then I will protest if it is not in my interest. If the company still refuse to comply with my contract they are given two choices. a) We go to court b) They loose my professional services. Simple.
Stop being concerned with Licences, ratings and how much better you are at landing an aircraft than your counterpart in the other seat and concentrate on your quality of life.
Stand up for yourselves, you are the ones in the driving seat. Just look around at the amount of airlines out there. The Aviation industry has never been healthier and being dictated to by somebody like MOL says to me you have no backbone.
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Look at the facts, IALPA are spineless. They have dropped all cases against Ryanair for the Dub pilots without even asking them what they thought. What does MOL think when he see this? Ryanair is not going to change and without every pilot standing up and saying no he will keep doing what he is doing.
Although I’ve been in the aviation industry since leaving school 14 years ago, Ryanair gave me my first opportunity as flight crew. For that I am truly grateful. I am under no illusion I was a cheap pilot for them. I paid for my own type rating and worked on half sector pay for 6 months. In return I flew my back side off and learnt my new trade from very experienced Captains. I had fun, both abroad and back in Stansted. I could see early on the culture of the company. I joined BALPA and was a big supporter of REPA, spending time talking to mostly foreign Captains and convincing them to take part in the Union/Repa process. What struck me was the amount of crew that were ‘happy’ at Ryanair and were not keen to rock the boat. As terms and conditions deteriorated further and further I jumped ship to Orange pastures. Ladies and Gents, there is no need to berate each other on this forum. There are real problems at Ryanair that can only be fixed by the majority of RYANAIR crew coming together and acting either through BALPA/IALPA or the ERC. Unity, Unity, Unity ! It is true.. Other airlines look at FR and want to emulate the working practises . EasyJet are trying to pull the old base contract trick at the moment !
To this end we all need to support the Ryanair crew and help them to act. They have been shafted from O’Leary and Co on the one side and IALPA decision not to take FR to court has knocked them from the other side. Either way Ryanair crew must pull their fingers out, grow some balls and ACT Unity..Unity..Unity ..
NB. Grim Repa.. stop the abuse and try and get some support for the repa cause !
To this end we all need to support the Ryanair crew and help them to act. They have been shafted from O’Leary and Co on the one side and IALPA decision not to take FR to court has knocked them from the other side. Either way Ryanair crew must pull their fingers out, grow some balls and ACT Unity..Unity..Unity ..
NB. Grim Repa.. stop the abuse and try and get some support for the repa cause !
Last edited by Marvo; 10th Jan 2008 at 18:21. Reason: spelin
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well hudy--
i still stand by what i said as well---
let's meet and i can show you how much spine i have.
and could you give us some verified specific examples of your good works at other airlines---
or are they legends in your own mind?
oh and you'll say something like, "facts not disclosed for protection of the innocent"
you're talking to someone whose father was in the american trucking industry, so don't try to talk a big talk unless you can show some of the walk!
let's meet and i can show you how much spine i have.
and could you give us some verified specific examples of your good works at other airlines---
or are they legends in your own mind?
oh and you'll say something like, "facts not disclosed for protection of the innocent"
you're talking to someone whose father was in the american trucking industry, so don't try to talk a big talk unless you can show some of the walk!
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What baffles me is why people still queue up to join this shower in the first place, just look in the wannabes section.
Nothing will change without industrial action.
Nothing will change without industrial action.
Last edited by Arthur Dailey; 10th Jan 2008 at 22:30.
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Stator Vane - I find your 'let's meet behind the bike sheds for a square go to show who's hard and who isn't' mentality very immature and most unhelpful. It is very reminiscent of my Glasgow upbringing and a line of argument most people leave behind when they leave school.
There is a genuine feeling among many pilots in other companies that Ryanair pilots have simply failed to come up to the plate and are now paying the price. That is is no way a criticism as in my own company, easyJet, we are in grave danger of following suit. The situation at Ryanair has become a living warning to us all as to where we may head unless we stand up. We have had an influx of pilots from people like BACON, FlyBe etc who feel BALPA stuffed them in the past and therefore are happy to take the good times at easyJet on the back of everyone else's past efforts.
There is a way forward here and it involves some hard choices by Ryanair's pilots. In the first instance it means people joining BALPA/IALPA (take your choice - I am sure either union would back the other). Without that 'secret' choice you have nowhere to begin. Once you have in excess of 80% membership then the real battle can begin. As one who watches the situation at Ryanair with alarm, I truly wish all our colleagues there every success in the battles they simply must fight. Continuing defeat of the pilots at Ryanair by MOL spells future disaster for us all and we should not deceive ourselves otherwise.
This very same battle is about to be fought at easyJet, and frankly I see no great appetite there for the battle over contracts than I detect at Ryanair now. I genuinely hope that top quality and brave individuals rise to the fore at Ryanair who will ensure that the current slide into professional oblivion is halted. You have my sincere best wishes.
There is a genuine feeling among many pilots in other companies that Ryanair pilots have simply failed to come up to the plate and are now paying the price. That is is no way a criticism as in my own company, easyJet, we are in grave danger of following suit. The situation at Ryanair has become a living warning to us all as to where we may head unless we stand up. We have had an influx of pilots from people like BACON, FlyBe etc who feel BALPA stuffed them in the past and therefore are happy to take the good times at easyJet on the back of everyone else's past efforts.
There is a way forward here and it involves some hard choices by Ryanair's pilots. In the first instance it means people joining BALPA/IALPA (take your choice - I am sure either union would back the other). Without that 'secret' choice you have nowhere to begin. Once you have in excess of 80% membership then the real battle can begin. As one who watches the situation at Ryanair with alarm, I truly wish all our colleagues there every success in the battles they simply must fight. Continuing defeat of the pilots at Ryanair by MOL spells future disaster for us all and we should not deceive ourselves otherwise.
This very same battle is about to be fought at easyJet, and frankly I see no great appetite there for the battle over contracts than I detect at Ryanair now. I genuinely hope that top quality and brave individuals rise to the fore at Ryanair who will ensure that the current slide into professional oblivion is halted. You have my sincere best wishes.
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Ryanair's major strength,from a management perspective, is the number of individuals they can recruit who are new to the industry (and think that four years to a 737 command is an unmissable opportunity) and foreigners who think that earning pounds/euros is a fabulous payrise. These people will never rock the boat and will be happy with whatever they are offered. The long term future of the industry is beyond them. Some will not join BALPA even with the reduced rate offered to second officers, they think it should be free! Unfortunately the future of the industry is not a healthy one methinks.
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Continuing defeat of the pilots at Ryanair by MOL spells future disaster for us all and we should not deceive ourselves otherwise.
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you didn't read carefully did you?
the "bike shed" imagery came out of your head!! not mine.
i simply asked a reality based request for a face to face meeting. perhaps that frightened you-
he is the one that went first into an immature method with his "spineless" accusations. when talking to a child, one must use their language.
i replied with a request for a real meeting--i did not use the word "fight" at all. if he/she made the first swing then i would "reply" in a language that he/she would understand.
you, then came in with the "bike shed" image, most likely because you've done it yourself, or had it done to you.
don't paint me with the same brush you've been painted with.
if i had the opinion that others were really spineless and ruining "my" industry, and came on line and started accusing others, i would not be surprized at all if someone would ask to meet. i would rather be disappointed and then would feel justified in my evaluation.
and i still await his examples of how he improved the world of aviation on his own. most likely he improved his little world or else moved on. those who have families are usually not so fast to move. perhaps an indication of a real spine rather than selfish spine. and those at the start of their career or near the end of their career do have less options.
my preferred venue would be a pub or an airport coffee shop. barring that, a topless bar would be better! ha.
the real enemy are the greedy managers/directors who hide behind the big desks and double doors.
not the pilots.
i do what i can. talk to each first officer and try to convince them to join a union. apart from that, i don't know what else to do. i am considering not letting them fly unless i see a card. we must speak in a language they understand. and on that point, i've been called "a bully." so be it. MOL is a bully, and we need some "bully" mentality to balance the scales.
i simply asked a reality based request for a face to face meeting. perhaps that frightened you-
he is the one that went first into an immature method with his "spineless" accusations. when talking to a child, one must use their language.
i replied with a request for a real meeting--i did not use the word "fight" at all. if he/she made the first swing then i would "reply" in a language that he/she would understand.
you, then came in with the "bike shed" image, most likely because you've done it yourself, or had it done to you.
don't paint me with the same brush you've been painted with.
if i had the opinion that others were really spineless and ruining "my" industry, and came on line and started accusing others, i would not be surprized at all if someone would ask to meet. i would rather be disappointed and then would feel justified in my evaluation.
and i still await his examples of how he improved the world of aviation on his own. most likely he improved his little world or else moved on. those who have families are usually not so fast to move. perhaps an indication of a real spine rather than selfish spine. and those at the start of their career or near the end of their career do have less options.
my preferred venue would be a pub or an airport coffee shop. barring that, a topless bar would be better! ha.
the real enemy are the greedy managers/directors who hide behind the big desks and double doors.
not the pilots.
i do what i can. talk to each first officer and try to convince them to join a union. apart from that, i don't know what else to do. i am considering not letting them fly unless i see a card. we must speak in a language they understand. and on that point, i've been called "a bully." so be it. MOL is a bully, and we need some "bully" mentality to balance the scales.
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I don't know what this is all about. I work 5 on 3 off. This is soon to change to 5 on 4 off. I earn over £80,000 a year. This is soon to go up to well over £90,000. I am soon to get a reasonable pension. I normaly only fly two or three days a week. I fly new, reliable aircraft. I get back every night. I have not had my contract changed. If it wasn't for Ryanair, most of you moaning would probably never have become pilots.
Get a Grip
You can allways go and drive a bus or a truck for about £20,000 in the real world.
Get a Grip
You can allways go and drive a bus or a truck for about £20,000 in the real world.
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I am not a UK based Pilot. I am from mainland Europe. The level of English of most of my colleagues from Eastern Europe does not lend itself to participating in a typed conversation in English, which I assume, is the reaosn they are not here.
FlyingOfficerKite I have serious fears for you. You're the naive type that has us in this mess to begin with.
For the record, and I don't think I am unique in this regard, I am not for heavily unionization. I would be happier, much happier, to be able to sit down an have an adult discussion with management of Ryanair. Command their respect, no middle man, no unions. Be treated as a Professional, and recognise the fact that the average Co-Pilot has spent one hundred thousand Euro on their training, and should be paid accordingly. Ryanair won't do that so this is the route we have to choose.
FlyingOfficerKite I have serious fears for you. You're the naive type that has us in this mess to begin with.
For the record, and I don't think I am unique in this regard, I am not for heavily unionization. I would be happier, much happier, to be able to sit down an have an adult discussion with management of Ryanair. Command their respect, no middle man, no unions. Be treated as a Professional, and recognise the fact that the average Co-Pilot has spent one hundred thousand Euro on their training, and should be paid accordingly. Ryanair won't do that so this is the route we have to choose.
Last edited by Carmoisine; 11th Jan 2008 at 16:12. Reason: Spelling
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Silver Hawk foolishly said; Correct me if I'm wrong.
MOL sold the majority of his shares a good while ago.
He will depart RYR a very rich man.
RYR are selling off their early 800s already for more than they paid for them, adding to the company profits, even though pax revenue is down.
The company will still make a profit on paper for another few years even though the actual operation will be making a loss.
Some brand new 800s are going to other airlines at a profit because RYR cannot crew them.
According to the SEC filing of Ryanair accounts in November 2007, all, apart from the second quote, are totally wrong.
His sale of 6 Million shares was less than 10% of his holding.
The other numbers are there to see, if you are interested in the truth.
Which airlines are taking the A/C?
I do wish posters would check their 'facts' before posting rubbish on here.
Operating Data (IFRS): 2007 2006 2005
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average Yield per RPM (EUR).......0.075 0.076 0.081
Average Yield per ASM (EUR).......0.059 0.058 0.063
Average Fuel Cost per U.S... 1.826 1.479 1.060
Cost per ASM (EUR)(a)....... 0.054 0.052 0.053
Passenger Load Factor 76% 77% 78%
Break-even Load Factor... 72% 68% 65%
Operating Margin............ 21% 22% 25%
Break-even Load Factor(b) 61% 61% 59%
Avg Pasngr Fare (EUR)........ 47.67 44.53 43.95
Avg Booked Pasngr Fare (EUR) 44.10 41.23 40.85
xtra incme per Bkd Pasngr (EUR) 8.52 7.45 6.92
Total half year profits, only a record 408 million euros.
JCA, you even have me defending the bloody company now. Just stick to facts, not made up bloody fiction, please!
MOL sold the majority of his shares a good while ago.
He will depart RYR a very rich man.
RYR are selling off their early 800s already for more than they paid for them, adding to the company profits, even though pax revenue is down.
The company will still make a profit on paper for another few years even though the actual operation will be making a loss.
Some brand new 800s are going to other airlines at a profit because RYR cannot crew them.
According to the SEC filing of Ryanair accounts in November 2007, all, apart from the second quote, are totally wrong.
His sale of 6 Million shares was less than 10% of his holding.
The other numbers are there to see, if you are interested in the truth.
Which airlines are taking the A/C?
I do wish posters would check their 'facts' before posting rubbish on here.
Operating Data (IFRS): 2007 2006 2005
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average Yield per RPM (EUR).......0.075 0.076 0.081
Average Yield per ASM (EUR).......0.059 0.058 0.063
Average Fuel Cost per U.S... 1.826 1.479 1.060
Cost per ASM (EUR)(a)....... 0.054 0.052 0.053
Passenger Load Factor 76% 77% 78%
Break-even Load Factor... 72% 68% 65%
Operating Margin............ 21% 22% 25%
Break-even Load Factor(b) 61% 61% 59%
Avg Pasngr Fare (EUR)........ 47.67 44.53 43.95
Avg Booked Pasngr Fare (EUR) 44.10 41.23 40.85
xtra incme per Bkd Pasngr (EUR) 8.52 7.45 6.92
Total half year profits, only a record 408 million euros.
JCA, you even have me defending the bloody company now. Just stick to facts, not made up bloody fiction, please!
Last edited by rubik101; 11th Jan 2008 at 14:54. Reason: trying to line up the columns!
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Which airlines are taking the A/C