Is It Worth It Anymore?

[400drvr]

No! With the criminals that run the airline industry today, who make millions in and out of bankruptcy on the backs of the employee groups, I'd say stay well clear of the airline industry.

Only 8 to go.

[Superpilot]

There is no such thing as the perfect job. Anything you do for long enough you will begin to hate unless you are one of those that know the reality of it - that every job has it's ups and downs and you might as well stick to the one with the best view! Do you really think a "challenging" and varying job (with new things to learn everyday) is that much better???

I assure you it's not. In my game (IT) it's certainly never boring and always loads to do and learn with changing technologies and uncapped IT budgets! but there are downsides. I am constantly having to take my work home with me in order to make gains on the day ahead. As a result my quality of life is, well, **** to be honest. A lot of my spare time is spent worrying about problems at work, thinking about the next meeting etc.

I work on average 50 hours a week. I am having to deal with Project Managers who push the most unrealistic schedules in my face. I have to commute using the grot that is London's public transport.

I used to love challenges and fast paced environments but not any more. Almost everyone I know does not see IT as being in line with their long term goals. Simply because we all know we'd die of mental fatigue before we reach our 50s.

I'm in my mid twenties and earning a tad above you A.R (Contractor rates ) but that aint going to stop me from trying a flying career. It was my first choice in life and I can proudly say even if I begin to hate it after 5-10 years, I'll just consider it a fact of life.

[EjetSetter]

Is it? I think it is.

Hey man, hopefully I can shed lite.

I'v been on her before and like you I see a lot of people go I hate my job. I want to get out of flying. Whan Whan.

But here's my question, for all of the whiners how many of them got into it for the flight hours. For wanting to be in the air. No what attracted them was the ports of call and the pay. If you go into any job for cash and benefits, you will in the long run be dissapointed unless your the CEO banking on what you take away from the employees.

The simpliest answer is fly because you love it, its a hobby. Don't do it for the pay because in any job, any place you will find the shortcommings of money and not the long run of enjoyment.

So a question to everyone that answered in a negative way, why did you join? I sure as hell didn't for the pay.

(By the way, as a plea to all pilots student or otherwise don't do a SSTR please. If anything not being bonded for a free TR is a dissapointment.)

[dlav]

Oh 'eck, not making for some nice bed time reading chaps!

Anybody out there that DOES think its still worth it?

[brain fade]

Good for you for asking the question- a real dilemma. Here is the answer.

If you really wanted to do it- you wouldn't have to ask.

The fact that you need to be reassured shows you don't want (never mind need) it enough.

Therefore, for heavens sake..........Don't!

My invoice will be in the post.

Best thing I ever did, btw. And despite the naysayers.......I love it.

[Caractacus]

I'm early 40, married with 2 young kids, work 4 days a week and earn around £65k (weekends off).

If I could get that lifestyle and salary I would return to flying tommorrow. It is not available - not even for the Masons! The reality is 800 + hours per year, less than 60 k, no family life and all the problems you read on Pprune.

If you really wanted to do it you would not have posted the question. I first poled an aeroplane as a twelve year old. Ten airlines later I wouldn't touch an the industry with the long end of a nuclear tipped bargepole.

Stick close you your family and go flying for fun. You will grow out of the itch to be an airline pilot.

[kingoftheslipstream]

AtomicRoster...
Well, you've asked the 'million pound' question. I have read the thread to this point and have been quite impressed with most of the answers - you have received some thoughtful replies.
I've been in the game for 25 years. Most of the time it has been an absolute gas. But I am turning 46 next month... we have a teenage child... my wife has worked all our married lives. We have done very well for ourselves, mostly because we came offshore in the late '80s. Otherwise we wouldn't be where we are today financially.
The game has changed radically... disposable income has decreased considerably since I started in the early 80s... hours per month are up. Fatigue management (as one other post put it) is a huge issue. I am fit, healthy and I have a good attitude but I am knackered all the time... I still miss birthdays/anniversaries/weddings/funerals and Xmas and Easter because of this darn job. Not all of 'em, but too many for a short life time...
I am roughly familiar with what your 65k Stirling gets you in the UK... you live on a nice professional salary... you sound nicely settled. I don't think it's worth it anymore I must say.
It's going to continue to get worse - this is where you're thoughtful question will pay off for you and your family - pensions have pretty much vanished. The status of the profession of pilot has decreased to abysmal in North America, it's not far behind in the rest of the world. In the words of Leonard Cohen (poet) pilots are: no longer the hero[es] of their own enterprise... The remuneration is no longer consistent with the responsibility.
Someone else posted that piloting is a "job for school leavers"... that is quite astute. (I'm one of 'em). I am aware that pilots are not the brightest intellectually. Perhaps this is part of our 'fall' from grace as a profession... The old post war pilot image of an ex-airforce officer and all its associations, or the aristocratic ne'er do well, or even the sensitive contemplative loner smitten with the romance of flying... all has given way to a new breed of pilot with a different set of character traits entirely... As bean counters and MBAs have begun to rule the industry, the pilot has become a small, dull tooth in the gears of commerce. We continue to play a huge role in the day to day operation of an airline, but we are not reaping a fair share of the reward. As the future unfolds, the type of person who is attracted to the lower salary and lifestyle sacrifices will continue to change the face of this profession, and unfortunately not for the better. The kind of person, man or woman, who is attracted to a self financed piloting career to earn 20k-40k Stirling or USD is not the same kind of person who was attracted to 80-100k...
So, as you ponder your future, don't just think about the equipment but think about the kind of people you want to work with as well. It makes a difference.
I got into the game because I am a romantic - I was smitten with the flying bug at about age 5 and I could never have done anything else and won't do anything else... I never had a choice. You seem to have one.
Good luck and safe flying.
k-o-t-s

[cabeza]

Stick were you are mate
Flying a 172 etc much more fun than a jet!

[stator vane]

only if not flying will kill you!!!!

knowing what i know now, only do it, if you think you will die without it!!!
but first, try to get some professional counselling from those who deal with heroin addicts!!!
because that is what i would compare it to.
haven't shot the stuff into my veins, and as for flying, i can't live without it, but it is killing me!!!!
it intoxicates and frustrates. it inspires and demoralizes. it puts wings and epaulettes on your uniform and turns around and kicks you in the teeth. it makes you feel successful and makes you feel a failure. it builds your confidence and brings you to shivers. it brings you into strong personal relationships and it turns you into a loner. it creates new interests yet kills your attention span. you look at the cessnas and are happy you're in your machine, but a 777 taxis by and a tear comes to your eyes. you look down at the earth and wish you were there. you look up into the sky and wish you were there. you rise above the clouds to see the moon, stars and sun on rainy days as the 6 month medicals record your gradual demise. the cabin crew make you feel like you're always 18; whilst in the lav the mirror reminds you that you're old enough to be their grandfather. you look out the window and see the glorious world slowly slip by but you can't touch it nor smell it. you look at the northern lights and are glad you are there whilst on the turnaround, you ask yourself where did you go wrong. all in all you slowly realize that for better or worse, you never know how much longer it will last.

[old,not bold]

From the first post.....

It seems to me that many many pilots are not happy with their lot

And some-one else has posted a remark that pprune is full of whingers.

I've been in the industry for nearly 40 years, some of them flying, sort of semi-commercially...

I've been associated with professional pilots, worked with them, written their Ops Manuals, organised their transport and accommodation, prepared and filed their flight plans , on and off for most of that time.

Never in the history of the world has a group of people doing the job they love (well 99% of them do), mostly for more pay than anyione else in the company gets, been so ready to moan about almost everything, pretty much continuously.

It's just a habit; don't take any notice unless and until they start actually getting other jobs instead of talking about doing that.

Stand-by for incoming...................

[Dani]

very true! And since pilots are complaining that it's boring and that they do nothing but looking out of the window - sounds like the perfect job for me!

I don't know any job in the world where you get a 100 grants (insert currency as required), do nothing, don't need your brain, get fed for free and only work about 15 days a month. Everyone else in the civilized world has to sacrify his Saturdays and/or every second evening to get that money.

Those people who don't like it never came for the flying. I still get chilled when I watch the sunset at 39 000ft. Altough I cannot smell it (how does a Northern Light smell???). I will be excited even after my second 10 000 hours.

If you can say that yourself, you are suited for the job.
Dani

[Ignition Override]

NotanotherHilton:
How would other Pprune pilots' perspectives change if all of them, in a one year period, had taken two or three pay cuts which total anywhere from 30-38 % of their salaries?

There is no doubt that 400Driver is in one of those groups.
Many airline executive groups are awarded about 350,000,000 US in free corporate stock, as a reward for screwing up their airlines and slicing about 35% from your salaries. The contracts often then return only about 3 % per year into your salary. Generous cost of living increases.

They insult us by telling the media that the Boards of Directors made the decision to award those huge chunks of stock .
The Boards apparently held a Walther PPK (5.56mm?) pistol to their heads and forced them to sign a document which forbids them to refuse the stock.

Just the latest in a nonstop stream of insults to our intelligence.
And by the way, that does NOT include changes in work rules and some mostly lost retirements for many of the older pilots (i.e. Delta and USAirways).

[flyboy1818]

The problem with potential Pilots at the moment is that they have a significanlty different image of what the industry and the job will be like when they start training to the actual realities. This in many ways means that an abundance of people go onto Professional Pilot training that should quite simply get a PPL and enjoy flying in their spare time. Since 9/11 we have probably seen the worst time for a rookie pilot ever, the combination of the Aviation industry being/recovering in/from recession, the dawn of the low cost business model, a massive increase in national wealth and a run of many years of cheap debt fuelled by low intrest rates has produced too many rookie Pilots, many of whom have gone into training on a 1940's pipe dream with little research of planning beyond initial training.

I know many hopefuls who are now doing training well into their fifties. Will they get jobs? Yes a few will, but the majority won't, why? Because every year an army of young people start expensive integrated training after finishing an expensive Aviation degree. These people are in the 21-25 age range and most of them will work for nothing because its all they know, they have never known anything else and risk loosing all otherwise. As a result the carnage is really out and T&C's for the newly appointed FO make bag throwing look a more attractive proposition as many have previously pointed out on this website.

For me I have always known this Industry as an Industry, not a profession. I started out at 17 working in a very low paid job for a ground handler, and over the years I have gained an Aviation degree, at the same time working and building upon my previous industrial experience. I now have a very well paid job for somebody of my age, but still I'm not a Pilot. I have however had my PPL for many years. I am in the same situation as you, I have a very nice job which pays well and gives me more days than just Saturday and Sunday off, the pay also allows me to do a significant amount of travelling and flying in my free time, I have great promotional prospects too! Rather than jump head first into loans and a year or so out of work, I'm going to use my spare days to do the training part time and at the same time keep myself out of debt and demise. My advice, do the same, no debt, no life change, take a little longer and do it part time.

Now for the big one, is it worth it? In my mind yes, but then I know this industry very well and I know what to expect, I know who to work for and who not to work for. Do some research beyond the flight schools, and see what you think of it. Some examples would be: Part time job at an Airport for a few months on weekends, speaking to newly qualified FO's at gatbash or BALPA conferences. So to summarise I think you should go for it, but only after proper research. I also think that you should keep your job in the process, don't loose your money and your mind! Maybe a part time job as a flying instructor could be a good first step, allowing you to build hours and rise above many of the younger lower houred rookies. Good Luck!

[Viola]

Stator Van, you are a poet.

That's one of the best descriptions of the flying addiction I have ever read.

[Atomic Rooster]

Well here goes for the second time - I just lost a post into the ether after a lengthy write ! How frustrating is that ?

Firstly - thanks for all the replies so far. Some very interesting posts. I can identify with pretty much everything that has been said (although some people seem to be under the impression that I am considering going into training to be a commercial pilot - not so, I already have fATPL with +600 hrs). The thread took a few days to get going and I was still ambivalent about the whole thing, however as the days have wore and more replies been forthcoming I am being drawn towards one direction.

Although this issue has been niggling me for some time it has been brought to the fore front by the forthcoming BALPA EOC, an event which in itself would mean sacrificing the first day of a planned weeks holiday in the UK (half-term). It has made me stop and ask; 'What is the point in going if I'm having second doubts? How can I look a chief pilot in the eye and say 'I really really want to work for your airline! (even though I may be based 100's of miles from my family on well less than half my normal pay working all hours god sends !). The fact is I don't feel I can. I have no doubt that I would really enjoy working in an airline, or moreover, the flying side of things, but I just feel that the politics and decaying T&C's would eventually get to me. Although my wife has been supportive and indeed her response to the BALPA EOC was 'Why don't you go along and give it a final shot - I mean you've put so much into it so far'. However, I feel that perhaps the reality of it all will be too harsh for all the family.

It is therefore with heavy heart and a slight tear in the eye that I feel I must draw a line under this whole airline thing. I genuinely feel I would have enjoyed many aspects of the job, but I feel I just can’t justify it anymore. Life at the moment is pretty sweet and although I have the pressures that most people have when bringing up kids, on the whole life is fairly stress free. I am sad to say, but money has been a factor in the decision-making, but by no means the only factor! (BTW Superpilot – I am a contractor too, the £65k is on the low end for me but it has been a long-term contract. I was actually offered a 3-month contract (with possible 2 yrs) in London a couple of months ago with a daily rate of £550 per day – and I turned it down cos it was in London!! Not sure I’ll do that next time ! Also a lot to be said for better the devil you know! Also, good luck to you should you go down the commercial route – you have your age on your side!)

I hope people continue to post on this thread. You never know, one day in the not too distant future, maybe, just maybe I’ll get ‘the call’ from an airline based on an old application long forgotten about and then I will have to decide, ‘do I walk the walk?’

In the meantime I will continue to enjoy doing what I have aspired to do since a young lad – FLY !!

Thanks.
Atomic Rooster.

[Crosswind Limits]

You could always instruct part-time or do air taxi. There are options to keep your existing work/life and still get paid to fly.

Best of luck!

P.S. Whatever you do, try and keep your multi IR current.

[CaptKremin]

Good decision.

The daily difficulties faced in this job have grown to outlandish proportions. What was a fun career 30 years ago is now a severe test of personal endurance.

Battling through overcrowded airport terminals to get to work, hassles from ignorant security staff, petty stupid rules about personal luggage, over crowded ramps, runways and skies, falling salaries, contractual terms under constant attack, higher and higher demands on productivity, with aircraft that go on forever creating greater disruption and fatigue, constant checking and re-checking, Manuals that have quadrupled in size (which you are expected to be word perfect with), greater frequency of severe weather through climate change, increasing fuel costs, increasing pressure from bean counters to always take minimum fuel, pressure from ATC to do the impossible with your aircraft, and of course - terrorist threats.

Glad I'm near done.

[Bad Robot]

AR, you don't have to fly "AIRLINES" there are other forms of Aviation that are just as rewarding and as you say, you already have a Frozen ATPL. Perhaps you could look at Biz Jets, Survey flights, GA or other Aerial Work?

I actually got into the Airlines by default it wasn't my first choice that's for sure. I was quite happy doing Survey flying and other AW. Even got a commercial Seaplane Rating and that is also very rewarding flying.

Your Heart must really be in it. If you are in this game purely for money /life style, then unless you really fall on your feet then you are in for a great disappointment.

Good luck whatever you choice is.

BR.

[Desk-pilot]

The other side of the fence!

Atomic Rooster, I hope that the foregoing views have been helpful but I feel that having been on both sides of the fence the flying is a no brainer!

I too worked in IT - for about ten years in fact - I enjoyed a salary of around £50 000 plus great benefits but I knew from a young age that I really wanted to fly. As a result I was completely depressed by my humdrum IT career and every Sunday night felt miserable about Monday morning. Of course for ten years I enjoyed the money and lifestyle, ran a TVR, took superb holidays (wife earned slightly smaller salary also in IT so household income pretty good) but in the end I realised that there's more to life than money and security.

I trained as a pilot, spent 18 months looking for a flying job while back in IT contracting on a day rate of £450 a day i.e. about £110 000 pa. This also coincided with us starting a family. Eventually I was offered a job flying turboprops for a leading regional airline - £24000 basic salary and I'm based 400 miles from home at the moment. Completely love the flying, the job has lived up to my expectations completely though the money and domestic life is ****. I miss my wife and little girl terribly.

Would I do it again? - you bet, I get up every morning for work and love it - but of course I am fairly new to it. I get plenty of hands on experience, the Captains are at this base at least are fantastic and there's no way I would even consider going back to my old job. Worth remembering too that in perhaps 2 years I will be eligible for command when the salary will be about on a par with the IT salary I earned after more than ten years as a permie in IT. Of course I have added £60k or so to the mortgage but that's only about £400 a month on a mortgage and when you think about it that's not exactly earth shattering once you're on a £50k ish salary (it's pretty bad at the moment though!)

I'd say a deciding factor for me was if I could return to the old job level fairly easily if it didn't all work out. It's a decision only you and your wife can make but I knew I loved flying better than anything else. There's a great line in one of the Star Trek movies where Spock says to Kirk 'Flying a starship is your first best destiny, anything else is a waste of material' - that's how I felt about flying airliners and I still do.

Is it your first best destiny?

Desk-pilot
PS Read 'What Should I do with My Life' by Po Bronson - one of the best books I have ever read and found it helpful.

[Norman2]

Indeed, if Pilots are bored by airline routine, then I have little sympathy. I would (and sometimes do) pay good money to have that view out of the window. Try staring at a PC screen all day under artificial light before finding a flying job boring!