Is It Worth It Anymore?
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Is It Worth It Anymore?
I've been a visitor for at least 6 years now to pprune and back then it was very much my plan to be an airline pilot. I've been in a position to apply to airlines now for about 2 years and have been rather selective in who I have been applying to for various reasons, but to no avail, not even an interview ! However, I am having serious doubts as to whether I really want this anymore ! Which is my reason for this post - I wanted to solicit thoughts from those of you who are in the industry to help me make reach a decision one way or the other.
It seems to me that many many pilots are not happy with their lot (and I don't know if it's just me but it seems to have gotten more negative on here in recent years), and I know that can be said for many industries, but I have heard some pilots say 'if I knew now what I knew back then I wouldn't have bothered !'. Conversely, there are those who seem fairly happy with their lot and dismiss pprune as being just full of negative people. The way I see it is I have a lot to lose and although I feel I would always be able to return to my current career as an engineer I don't want to make that final leap of faith only to find myself after 2 or 3 years in disillusioned and even more worse off financially than before I did flight training. Some info on me to set the picture straight, I'm early 40, married with 2 young kids, work 4 days a week and earn around £65k (weekends off). Now I know it's not always about the money and there are some airlines that pay FO's a fairly decent starting salary, but let's say a TP operator, rosters 6/2, forget xmas (got kids), starting FO salary wouldn't even allow me to make mortgage repayments, however, my wife also works (part-time) so we could do it, but it would be tough ! I guess I always knew it wouldn't be easy but time has moved on and I'm reasonably happy with the status quo, but still have this nagging itch - should I give it a final crack !?
I know at the end of the day, it's horses for course and everyone's circumstances are different. What do you think ?
Thanks.
AR.
BTW - Although I can afford it I am against paying for a TR. I just think it's wrong and would rather spend the money paying off my mortgage !!
It seems to me that many many pilots are not happy with their lot (and I don't know if it's just me but it seems to have gotten more negative on here in recent years), and I know that can be said for many industries, but I have heard some pilots say 'if I knew now what I knew back then I wouldn't have bothered !'. Conversely, there are those who seem fairly happy with their lot and dismiss pprune as being just full of negative people. The way I see it is I have a lot to lose and although I feel I would always be able to return to my current career as an engineer I don't want to make that final leap of faith only to find myself after 2 or 3 years in disillusioned and even more worse off financially than before I did flight training. Some info on me to set the picture straight, I'm early 40, married with 2 young kids, work 4 days a week and earn around £65k (weekends off). Now I know it's not always about the money and there are some airlines that pay FO's a fairly decent starting salary, but let's say a TP operator, rosters 6/2, forget xmas (got kids), starting FO salary wouldn't even allow me to make mortgage repayments, however, my wife also works (part-time) so we could do it, but it would be tough ! I guess I always knew it wouldn't be easy but time has moved on and I'm reasonably happy with the status quo, but still have this nagging itch - should I give it a final crack !?
I know at the end of the day, it's horses for course and everyone's circumstances are different. What do you think ?
Thanks.
AR.
BTW - Although I can afford it I am against paying for a TR. I just think it's wrong and would rather spend the money paying off my mortgage !!
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You should obviously do what you think is right - only you can make that descision.
However, For what its worth; I would stay as you are, get a PPL, buy a share in a light single, and enjoy flying.
There are many pilots I know returning to GA to do some real hands on flying. (Whilst maintaing their airline jobs just to pay the bills)
Cheers
However, For what its worth; I would stay as you are, get a PPL, buy a share in a light single, and enjoy flying.
There are many pilots I know returning to GA to do some real hands on flying. (Whilst maintaing their airline jobs just to pay the bills)
Cheers
Warning Toxic!
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Without being brutal, it's not for you mate. When I converted, I was with a bunch of guys paying 20k for a TR and another 10k for 100 hours (which still doesn't get you there!). You've got a great job, well paid, and a family who shouldn't have to sacrifice their lives on the altar of your ambition, as you can see. It's not just a financial transaction- it can be as much of a calling as for the people who go into religion in a big way. Your aviation 'bite' is not severe.
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Atomic roster - when i started in aviation people were saying exactly the same thing. I got my first job on turbo-props and I remember meeting the chief pilot of a low cost 737 outfit and when asked about job prospects simply replied 'that Dash 8 is the most fun you will have I would stay there'. It hasnt gone unnoticed that all these people saying that only talk the talk but never walk the walk if you excuse the cheesy line. People who complain it is not what I joined up for - its not worth it to be away from home etc. They are still there though! I am on my 3rd airline and flying longhaul and still loving it and I would say that it most definitely is worth it. People of our 'ilk' do not just fall into this job but have a genuine interest and motivation and it is hard to not enjoy it when you have completed your training and are flying for a living. Go for it!
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If you don't know whether you should do it, you shouldn't do it. It's as simple as that. You have to be absolutely sure that flying is your thing. Then go for it 100%.
There are always people complaining. There will always be drawbacks. There is always a bad job with low pay. But only the people who were not really sure in the beginning are complaining now. The others just enjoy it.
btw the prospects have never been better (unless Osama strikes again), and it has never been easier to get a jet job after 200 hrs.
Dani
There are always people complaining. There will always be drawbacks. There is always a bad job with low pay. But only the people who were not really sure in the beginning are complaining now. The others just enjoy it.
btw the prospects have never been better (unless Osama strikes again), and it has never been easier to get a jet job after 200 hrs.
Dani
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Live the dream ??
Atomic,
I had the same conversation with a mate of mine who was wondering whether to go for it all guns blazing and land that lucrative first airline job. There are a few who do not get you to pay for a type rating such as Flybe and bmi regional for that first job. However those companies are looking for someone with a little bit of commercial experience first. During a feeding frenzy airlines will just about hire a monkey with a licence, but at the moment I don't think those times are now.
As the saying goes, do you feel lucky ?? Of ten guys I trainined with back in 2001, I'm one of a few who got a commercial job. The others part time instruct or packed up their bags.
Your family will suffer a bit, if a career in the airline industry is your goal, be prepared to sacrifice many of your weekends. Annual leave can be a bit of a lottery and you might not get school holiday time off.
As for the money, a tube driver gets more than me. F/O salaries are pretty dismal.
The job though is great fun, great people to work with, interesting places to go to and the flying although mostly autopilot is still very challenging.
Good luck with your decision
Jenson
I had the same conversation with a mate of mine who was wondering whether to go for it all guns blazing and land that lucrative first airline job. There are a few who do not get you to pay for a type rating such as Flybe and bmi regional for that first job. However those companies are looking for someone with a little bit of commercial experience first. During a feeding frenzy airlines will just about hire a monkey with a licence, but at the moment I don't think those times are now.
As the saying goes, do you feel lucky ?? Of ten guys I trainined with back in 2001, I'm one of a few who got a commercial job. The others part time instruct or packed up their bags.
Your family will suffer a bit, if a career in the airline industry is your goal, be prepared to sacrifice many of your weekends. Annual leave can be a bit of a lottery and you might not get school holiday time off.
As for the money, a tube driver gets more than me. F/O salaries are pretty dismal.
The job though is great fun, great people to work with, interesting places to go to and the flying although mostly autopilot is still very challenging.
Good luck with your decision
Jenson
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If you like your current job, stick with it and just pay to fly for fun, doing what YOU want, when YOU want. Kids grow up far too fast and are more important than a job flying people from A to B. I have sat through some truly appalling nativity plays but would rather do all that and have a hand in first bicycle solos than hear about it on the phone in a hotel down route.
Not knocking the airlines, but if I'd rather have a go in a Pitts than an Airbus. If it's an easy matter to return to your 4 day week job after a couple of years then you may have less to lose. Whatever your circumstances, all the best.
Not knocking the airlines, but if I'd rather have a go in a Pitts than an Airbus. If it's an easy matter to return to your 4 day week job after a couple of years then you may have less to lose. Whatever your circumstances, all the best.
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It's a tough one to answer, and like many things in life it depends on your point of view.
One deciding factor is age. Whilst you can get into commercial flying at any age, it certainly becomes harder over 35, simply because the profile of the average FO still tends to be mid late 20s and there are plenty of captains who apply the template to all. If you've had any sort of responsibililty in your job it can be hard to adjust to being the 'least important person on the flight'. I certainly know a few people who have had problems with this, turned bitter and then sealed their fate as long term FOs.
It's also worth remembering that as a pilot you are only good for one thing and the longer you do it the harder it is to break free. Thankfully the medical is harder to lose in one's early years than in the past and I can happily say that I don't know anyone under 40 who has lost theirs. But if you do lose your job (as I did for nearly two years) it can be a bitter pill to go back to stacking shelves (literally) on minimum wage.
That said, when times are good it's a great life and you should certainly not believe half of the cr-p you read here. I was at XL for a year and the bullsh-t I read in the threads in this forum comes from a fairly small minority with an axe to grind. I suspect the same is true of other companies.
I suppose the bottom line is to ask yourself what you want to tell your grandchildren. If you're happy as you are then that's fine, but if you still harbour the flame to give it a try then don't let pprune put you off. After all you can always go back to the day job!
Good luck in your decision.
KT
One deciding factor is age. Whilst you can get into commercial flying at any age, it certainly becomes harder over 35, simply because the profile of the average FO still tends to be mid late 20s and there are plenty of captains who apply the template to all. If you've had any sort of responsibililty in your job it can be hard to adjust to being the 'least important person on the flight'. I certainly know a few people who have had problems with this, turned bitter and then sealed their fate as long term FOs.
It's also worth remembering that as a pilot you are only good for one thing and the longer you do it the harder it is to break free. Thankfully the medical is harder to lose in one's early years than in the past and I can happily say that I don't know anyone under 40 who has lost theirs. But if you do lose your job (as I did for nearly two years) it can be a bitter pill to go back to stacking shelves (literally) on minimum wage.
That said, when times are good it's a great life and you should certainly not believe half of the cr-p you read here. I was at XL for a year and the bullsh-t I read in the threads in this forum comes from a fairly small minority with an axe to grind. I suspect the same is true of other companies.
I suppose the bottom line is to ask yourself what you want to tell your grandchildren. If you're happy as you are then that's fine, but if you still harbour the flame to give it a try then don't let pprune put you off. After all you can always go back to the day job!
Good luck in your decision.
KT
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To a twenty year old I'd say, "What would you rather do- sell shoes for a department store or fly?". You're forty with a full size family with a set standard of living. That's a major sacrifice. Forty year old co-pilot flying with a 30 year old captain, I'm not sure you'd really like that.
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You shouldn't really ask how does it compare now, but rather how will it compare in five or ten years time.
Average salaries and conditions, with a very few exceptions, are lower now than they were ten years ago in real terms, and I can't see any great improvement on the horizon with more and more LCC's desperate to undercut each other at their employees expense. It will probably take ten years to get back to the sort of money you are getting now.
It is also worth remembering that the days of generous pensions are over. Fly for twenty years now, starting on a co-pilots salary and ask yourself what sort or retirement you will be able to afford. If your heart really is set on it then go for it, but do it with eyes fully open and without the rose tinted glasses.
Average salaries and conditions, with a very few exceptions, are lower now than they were ten years ago in real terms, and I can't see any great improvement on the horizon with more and more LCC's desperate to undercut each other at their employees expense. It will probably take ten years to get back to the sort of money you are getting now.
It is also worth remembering that the days of generous pensions are over. Fly for twenty years now, starting on a co-pilots salary and ask yourself what sort or retirement you will be able to afford. If your heart really is set on it then go for it, but do it with eyes fully open and without the rose tinted glasses.
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The main reason I still do this job is that it pays good money. Whilst I love flying, airline flying is far from exciting, the glamour has pretty much gone and don't even get me started on being treated like a criminal at security.
You are paid a good salary for only 4 days a week work and weekends off too. Pro rata you are on better money than myself as a jet aircraft captain and you have the luxury of knowing when your days off are for the rest of the year.
You don't mention whether you enjoy your job or if it involves shifts but I would say that your quality of life could easily be as good as that of an airline pilot and you are better paid than the majority of first officers which is where you will be for a number of years.
Enjoy your life and with your spare cash do some fun flying.
You are paid a good salary for only 4 days a week work and weekends off too. Pro rata you are on better money than myself as a jet aircraft captain and you have the luxury of knowing when your days off are for the rest of the year.
You don't mention whether you enjoy your job or if it involves shifts but I would say that your quality of life could easily be as good as that of an airline pilot and you are better paid than the majority of first officers which is where you will be for a number of years.
Enjoy your life and with your spare cash do some fun flying.
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In my view, stay where you are. Four days a week, weekends and xmas off? It's a no-brainer. And here's the important bit - you'll live longer. All the disrupted patterns and night flights which are the core of the long-haul pilot will take years off your life expectancy. For that reason I and many of my friends are looking at ways out of the profession.
Good luck in your decision.
Good luck in your decision.
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Flying is wonderful, of that there is no doubt. I have really enjoyed my years as a professional pilot, but I'm getting out.
I've worked for good companies and a couple of downright appalling ones, but I always enjoyed the flying and working with my colleagues.
BUT I'm bored! Airline flying is exciting to start with, but after a while it is dull. That's a good thing from a safety point of view, but it doesn't exactly tax your brain.
So I'm off to become a leach on society as a Lawyer, specialising in aviation obviously!
There's some good advice here from others, but only you can answer how burning your passion for flying is. If it is all consuming, then go for it. If not, stay where you are and buy a fun aircraft.
That's what I'll be doing, at least in the future I'll actually be able to afford to pay for flying!!
I've worked for good companies and a couple of downright appalling ones, but I always enjoyed the flying and working with my colleagues.
BUT I'm bored! Airline flying is exciting to start with, but after a while it is dull. That's a good thing from a safety point of view, but it doesn't exactly tax your brain.
So I'm off to become a leach on society as a Lawyer, specialising in aviation obviously!
There's some good advice here from others, but only you can answer how burning your passion for flying is. If it is all consuming, then go for it. If not, stay where you are and buy a fun aircraft.
That's what I'll be doing, at least in the future I'll actually be able to afford to pay for flying!!
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Flying for me has provided me with great joys, opportunities to visit the globe, fly different equipment, and meet truly fantastic people from around the world. But, I have also kept my aviation career in its proper perspective… jobs come and go.
With the turmoil that occurred in the ‘70s I chose to never rely on aviation as my primary source of income. I started and still maintain a business that has nothing to do with aviation. With this in mind, I have the opportunity to fly with different carriers worldwide. I get board with the same routes, hotels, crew meals, bases… etc. I guess, I am a vagabond pilot, so to say. But I will say this... the worst day in the cockpit still beats the best day at the office, I have no regrets at all.
However with this in mind, I was and still am responsible for my own benefits not limited to retirement and health care. But that’s what why I started and still maintain my business. I don’t want to wake up to my worst fear and have my retirement and health plans terminated.
With the turmoil that occurred in the ‘70s I chose to never rely on aviation as my primary source of income. I started and still maintain a business that has nothing to do with aviation. With this in mind, I have the opportunity to fly with different carriers worldwide. I get board with the same routes, hotels, crew meals, bases… etc. I guess, I am a vagabond pilot, so to say. But I will say this... the worst day in the cockpit still beats the best day at the office, I have no regrets at all.
However with this in mind, I was and still am responsible for my own benefits not limited to retirement and health care. But that’s what why I started and still maintain my business. I don’t want to wake up to my worst fear and have my retirement and health plans terminated.
Last edited by captjns; 7th Sep 2007 at 13:23.
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As mentioned before only YOU can make the decision if its worthwhile for YOU.
I have to agree with a lot of the reply's so far. However there are also a lot of pilots who do enjoy their job and don't want to do a different job for all the money in the world. As many opinions as pilots.
I started of as an aircraft engineer and loved my job as it was challeging and rewarding. Seen a big part of the globe as an engineer solving problems on our fleet or when providing technical assistance during a wet lease etc.
Left engineering to start flying but on my days off i still worked for an engineering company to keep my license valid. After flying for several years (shorthaul and longhaul) the flying got a bit dull and i started to look out for different challenges. Fortunately my part-time job as an engineer gave me the challenges i was looking for.
In the end decided to start my own company as a hobby and not really to make the big bucks. Through time the company grew bigger and the roles have changed now. The company is my main source of income and i now fly part-time as a hobby. Don't want to give up the flying completely as i really enjoy it.
Why don't you try and work for an airline? If you don't like it you can always return to being an engineer. It's better to say; Ok. i have tried it but its not for me. than in 15 years regretting you havent done it.
Just my 2P. Good luck with the decision.
CEJM
I have to agree with a lot of the reply's so far. However there are also a lot of pilots who do enjoy their job and don't want to do a different job for all the money in the world. As many opinions as pilots.
I started of as an aircraft engineer and loved my job as it was challeging and rewarding. Seen a big part of the globe as an engineer solving problems on our fleet or when providing technical assistance during a wet lease etc.
Left engineering to start flying but on my days off i still worked for an engineering company to keep my license valid. After flying for several years (shorthaul and longhaul) the flying got a bit dull and i started to look out for different challenges. Fortunately my part-time job as an engineer gave me the challenges i was looking for.
In the end decided to start my own company as a hobby and not really to make the big bucks. Through time the company grew bigger and the roles have changed now. The company is my main source of income and i now fly part-time as a hobby. Don't want to give up the flying completely as i really enjoy it.
Why don't you try and work for an airline? If you don't like it you can always return to being an engineer. It's better to say; Ok. i have tried it but its not for me. than in 15 years regretting you havent done it.
Just my 2P. Good luck with the decision.
CEJM
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enjoy week ends with ur wife & kids be with ur family when they need u the most in happiness and sorrow,instead of sitting in a hotel thinking u should be with them in this time of need,moreover SIMS AND MEDICLEs every six month to renew ur job stay putt and enjoy what u have
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I retired some months ago and am now itching to get back into action again; I've endured countless medicals, sim checks and line checks. I have been conditioned and hardened to take all this in my stride. However for the not so young wannabes with a good vocation after a tertiary education and young family, I would advise caution. You may be inflicting upon your family and yourself quite a bit of pain should your dream airline career sputters and lurches midway. Unless you have an overwhelming passion for airline flying or other really compelling reasons, be happy with what you have and fly privately for fun and leisure.
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Truly a sad thread this. We all love what we do, but as the late great Sir John Geilgud said "I have a large country house, and it doesn't run on chocolate buttons".
I was lucky, got into an airline when I was in my mid 20's and the truly Sh
t money was enough. Now near the top end of the food chain life is good.
I think we need to be asking ourselves would a B738 captain be prepared to take a clerks salary in a law firm to change careers?
I was lucky, got into an airline when I was in my mid 20's and the truly Sh
t money was enough. Now near the top end of the food chain life is good.I think we need to be asking ourselves would a B738 captain be prepared to take a clerks salary in a law firm to change careers?
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AR - is not the fact that you ask the question the answer in itself????
I would venture to suggest that since there is for you, so much at stake, unless you are 101% certain that it's the right path to follow, I wouldn't entertain the notion..............Just my opinion.......please disregard at your pleasure.
Whatever you decide to do,it will be the right thing for you. All the best.
I would venture to suggest that since there is for you, so much at stake, unless you are 101% certain that it's the right path to follow, I wouldn't entertain the notion..............Just my opinion.......please disregard at your pleasure.
Whatever you decide to do,it will be the right thing for you. All the best.