Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike
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Here's the link to Mannions 'Prime Time' interview last night: Prime Time
Just listen to what he said at point 3:15 on the tape.
Mannion was asked on radio today if he'd suspend the hiring in Belfast in exchange for IALPA calling off the strike and holding talks.
His answer was that there'd been enough talking already!
To anyone who suggests the pilots should go back and talk - Mr.Mannion says NO to talks, end of story.
This is all or nothing now.
Regarding OW22 comparing Aer Lingus to Intel - what can one do but laugh. If only. If only.......
This is the aviation business, and there are no Intel's in this business.
Good Luck to all you guys and girls in ALT. It would be truly a sight to see if this became the catalyst for a mass revolt by the Irish pilot community.
Just listen to what he said at point 3:15 on the tape.
Mannion was asked on radio today if he'd suspend the hiring in Belfast in exchange for IALPA calling off the strike and holding talks.
His answer was that there'd been enough talking already!
To anyone who suggests the pilots should go back and talk - Mr.Mannion says NO to talks, end of story.
This is all or nothing now.
Regarding OW22 comparing Aer Lingus to Intel - what can one do but laugh. If only. If only.......
This is the aviation business, and there are no Intel's in this business.
Good Luck to all you guys and girls in ALT. It would be truly a sight to see if this became the catalyst for a mass revolt by the Irish pilot community.
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That is not how it works, you are deliberately trying to paint a false picture to justify this stance.
I find it quite amusing that you have the nouce to call me a liar when you obviously have no qualification as a professional pilot or have ever worked in such a profession.
It is great to see that you understand the intricies of industrial relations and that you understand the basic economics of labour. 
I doubt if you even know who Adam Smith is? You have NO QUALIFICATION whatsoever to doubt what any professional pilot says on this website because in fact you are NOT A PROFESSIONAL PILOT. If you don't mind doing us all a favour and go back to playing with your toy airplanes and your binoculars. There’s a good chap....
Pilots can quite easily recognise exactly what is going on with the BFS base. It is an attempt to break prior agreements and lower T+C's across the board. What is your problem with professional pilots being paid a reasonable amount of money for doing a professional job?
This is how the pattern works by continuing to lower T+C's and rates of pay from base to base. It happens in FR and is known to happen now with Easy with the Spanish contracts. It is a blatant attempt to lower wages across the profession as companies make more and more money. Even you must understand you have to pay for professional labour. It costs a certain amount and can not be avoided. Companies are trying to do this type of lowering labour costs further to earn more money on top of the profits they already make.
Pilots will and should protect their rights and contracts from predatory employers who seek to earn higher and higher profit margins at the expense of their staff. Please do not expect that pilots will take an attempt to lower their T+C's lightly as they will not. Inflation is rising and pilots are losing out year after year as every other profession or skilled labour earn more and more. A qualified electrician or plumber in the local London area can now earn more than a B747-400 skipper out of Heathrow. Can you tell me that the balance is right here? Is the amount of responsibility the same and can the plumber lose his job a minimum of three times a year but more realistically five or six time depending on age, rank and responsibilities? A plumber or electrician probably will not and hence why the balance is now wrong with terms of the profession and the relative wage.
Something needs to be done and the EI pilots have done it. They do not want to strike as they have a vested interest in the continued financial viability of their employer. But please do not expect pilots in companies like EI to rollover why the management try to take them down the path of lowering T+C's such as the practice in FR. You can be sure as has been demonstrated that they will not. They will stand up for their rights and T+C's and how dare somebody who isn't even in the same profession or industry try and make these pilots seem like the bad people in all of this. If you want to look at selfish money grabber’s maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself some questions?
These pilots are only standing up for their current terms and conditions not extra money or holidays to Barbados. What are your motives in this?
Last edited by alibaba; 17th Aug 2007 at 19:36.
Jolly Green Giant
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Dear oh dear. Quite a pathetic rant there, throwing the toys out of the pram always a sign of somebody on a major defensive thrust...
Have a quick look at my profile. Feel free to look back at posts I've made here since 1999, you are obviously too lazy to actually do some research before shouting the odds on somebody you don't know..
Are you really as stupid as this question portrays you as?
The rest of your rant is baffling, I dare say you may have a had a few quick scoops on your way home....
Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.
Again, stop throwing up diversions on this topic. AL have made their commercial decision, and it is the pilots who have called the strike and them alone.
But please rant away, it's kind of funny
Have a quick look at my profile. Feel free to look back at posts I've made here since 1999, you are obviously too lazy to actually do some research before shouting the odds on somebody you don't know..
A qualified electrician or plumber in the local London area can now earn more than a B747-400 skipper out of Heathrow. Can you tell me that the balance is right here?
The rest of your rant is baffling, I dare say you may have a had a few quick scoops on your way home....
Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.
Again, stop throwing up diversions on this topic. AL have made their commercial decision, and it is the pilots who have called the strike and them alone.
But please rant away, it's kind of funny
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Not another one who thinks he has a good grasp of how the market works
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Reality Check Please!
I have read this particular thread with great interest; and no doubt that most support is for the AL pilots (this is, after all, a pilot site!). Whilst my own background is military aviation, my Uni education was in business and economics; and after reading this, the smart-asses will suggest I should have followed that career-path! But the simple economics, I think, are there for all to see and they are that AL is a company with shareholders and duty-bound to maximise the return on investment - long term- for all those same investors. Yes, AL pilots are shareholders but clearly blind to the long term survival of the company. Belfast is in another country, another economy and NOT tied to the Euro! Inflation is half what it is in RoI, where the cost of living is second highest only to Denmark and the AL pilots are fussing over what looks like pretty good T's & C's to me or Joe Public in another country. You get good money and very good T's & C's that were derived when the gravy train sat in the station; well it's down the track and a reality check is in order because you could be setting up the demise of AL. It needs all the help it can get in the current economic environment and to have some of its own shareholders threaten this action is both short-sighted and quite unbelieveable.
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Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.
How exactly do you see this panning out if it's not a attempt to eventually lower the T&C's all around?
Also, OW22, you are ignoring the central issue here: that management are unilaterally breaking the agreements they freely entered into. Do you find this acceptable?
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Guys, OW22 is ranting on and on. Stop rising to the bait. There are arguments for and against in all debates. However his last statement says it all when he finds it acceptable for a company to renage on their collective agreements. Enough said. OW22 it's not a personal attack but when you come out with statements like that it's hard to take you serious.
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Pre IPO Mannion agreed to adhere to all collective agreements in the ROI and the agreements made in the ROI among ROI based AL employees is not under threat.
IALPA is using the ridiculous example of the post IPO setting up of the Cork base as a guide to what should happen in Belfast!
Surely you see what's wrong with that?
IALPA is using the ridiculous example of the post IPO setting up of the Cork base as a guide to what should happen in Belfast!
Surely you see what's wrong with that?
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Why, Yes I do.
Your reading and/or knowledge of the agreements is deficient. But we will never agree, as your understanding of what's right/correct/fair/decent is different to mine. So be it.
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Thankfully the western world operates under the rule of law.
AL pilots are saying that agreements made by DM pre-IPO in the Republic Of Ireland are somehow now applicable to all bases even outside the country that Aer Lingus may wish to set up base in. AL management are saying no to that and are saying that was never in the agreement...
Fair and decent?? You think it's fair and decent to shut down operations like this? Causing untold disruption to the travelling public, the economy and your employer?
You are on a very dangerous road here and putting the Airline in on a dodgy footing. I said it before, if Mannion were forced out after this ends, when and of it ends, who do you honestly think would accept the Position to lead Aer Lingus? How could it possible have a future when it ends up that the unions call the shots? What do you think will happen eh value of the company?
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AL pilots are saying that agreements made by DM pre-IPO in the Republic Of Ireland are somehow now applicable to all bases even outside the country
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Would it be so bad if DM left AL? It is pretty easy to run a company when all you are focussed on is cutting costs. Any fool can do that for a while. Much more difficult to actually generate revenues and heaven forbid market the business and increase the brand.
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You’re the one with the toys. 
As I said before. You might need to go and play. 
Will you answer a question put to you or will you just stay logged on 24/7?
A commercial decision doesn't mean it is right in terms of any employment agreement or in terms of employment practices. What if the decision is not even the right one for the company in the first place? EI is not a poor suffering company on its knees in any shape or form.
What is the problem with using the current T+C's in EI in BFS with the current pilot workforce from EI? Can you answer the question please……
Can you tell me the differance in the "market place" between BFS and DUB? I know, I know it is 2 hrs up the motorway. We aren't comparing DUB to Bangladesh here..... What is the problem with pilots getting the same wage for the same job and same amount of work throughout Western Europe? The IAA is the jurisdiction and they will have the responsibility for regulating EI aeroplanes as that is where they are registered and who holds the AOC. It doesn't matter in that respect where the aeroplanes are based. Also the pilots in BFS could be going on Irish contracts. If pilots are not, why not? Other companies such as Easy and FR contract from the registered country most of the time but not in all cases. If they are not, it usually has something to do with splitting the pilot group so it can be more easily played for again lowering T+C's. Every lowering of the T+C's in any one base cause’s pressure on pilots from the higher rate base by management to lower T+C’s to the new lower rate. It will have an affect on the market place also. Even you can understand that.
All pilots terms and conditions are under threat from such a move that is why MOL is so keen to see EI win against its pilots so he can lower his own wage structure and T+C’s against his own pilots. The pilots in EI are having their current T+C's attacked by opening up another base on lower T+C's. CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?
I do believe that somebody answered the general thrust of your statement before with terms of average incomes, house prices and expenditure etc with terms of "market place". This is an attack on the current T+C's in EI. The tactic is used by other companies such as FR and it works hence why the EI pilots will not tolerate this kind of abuse. It leads to different pilot groups in bases being played off against each other for the race to the bottom of the wage race. This has been again demonstrated quite well by FR. Do you not understand that or will you continue to close your ears or shut your eyes to the blindly obvious? I am sorry but I find myself repeating myself here as you choose not to understand what I am saying??????
Which diversions? Answer the questions please. There are no diversions, just questions.
EI has every right to make commercial decisions as long as they obey the relevant laws, regulations and agreements of the country of which is its principal base of operations and the relevant country which it seeks to operate from or to. Nobody has questioned that right Oneworld. Pilots understand that BFS might be commercially the right move but not by lowering the current pilots T+C's in relation to opening that base. It is an aggressive and uncalled for gesture by EI managers against its pilots where one was not needed to continue the success in building the company and expanding its route network to becoming more of a success than it already is or could be.
As I said before. You might need to go and play. Will you answer a question put to you or will you just stay logged on 24/7?
A commercial decision doesn't mean it is right in terms of any employment agreement or in terms of employment practices. What if the decision is not even the right one for the company in the first place? EI is not a poor suffering company on its knees in any shape or form.
What is the problem with using the current T+C's in EI in BFS with the current pilot workforce from EI? Can you answer the question please……
Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.
We aren't comparing DUB to Bangladesh here..... What is the problem with pilots getting the same wage for the same job and same amount of work throughout Western Europe? The IAA is the jurisdiction and they will have the responsibility for regulating EI aeroplanes as that is where they are registered and who holds the AOC. It doesn't matter in that respect where the aeroplanes are based. Also the pilots in BFS could be going on Irish contracts. If pilots are not, why not? Other companies such as Easy and FR contract from the registered country most of the time but not in all cases. If they are not, it usually has something to do with splitting the pilot group so it can be more easily played for again lowering T+C's. Every lowering of the T+C's in any one base cause’s pressure on pilots from the higher rate base by management to lower T+C’s to the new lower rate. It will have an affect on the market place also. Even you can understand that. All pilots terms and conditions are under threat from such a move that is why MOL is so keen to see EI win against its pilots so he can lower his own wage structure and T+C’s against his own pilots. The pilots in EI are having their current T+C's attacked by opening up another base on lower T+C's. CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?
I do believe that somebody answered the general thrust of your statement before with terms of average incomes, house prices and expenditure etc with terms of "market place". This is an attack on the current T+C's in EI. The tactic is used by other companies such as FR and it works hence why the EI pilots will not tolerate this kind of abuse. It leads to different pilot groups in bases being played off against each other for the race to the bottom of the wage race. This has been again demonstrated quite well by FR. Do you not understand that or will you continue to close your ears or shut your eyes to the blindly obvious? I am sorry but I find myself repeating myself here as you choose not to understand what I am saying??????
Again, stop throwing up diversions on this topic
EI has every right to make commercial decisions as long as they obey the relevant laws, regulations and agreements of the country of which is its principal base of operations and the relevant country which it seeks to operate from or to. Nobody has questioned that right Oneworld. Pilots understand that BFS might be commercially the right move but not by lowering the current pilots T+C's in relation to opening that base. It is an aggressive and uncalled for gesture by EI managers against its pilots where one was not needed to continue the success in building the company and expanding its route network to becoming more of a success than it already is or could be.
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Another possible scenario-EI pilots strike and are successful in guaranteeing the same T&C for their NI colleagues. Oh, now hold on, the cost of living in NI is less than in the Republic, our NI colleagues have more spending power than us on the same salary-strike! Again the customers are the losers
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OW22, I know you've been around this site for a long time. So have I.
I've read many of your posts in the past, and often agreed with your comments. You even made me giggle at times.
The stuff you're coming out with now is very new, and quite an eye opener. So out of character!
Either I read you wrong, all along - or this particular issue is in some way unusually close to you - because the hysterics you are throwing are pretty unusual too.
I'm tempted to ask you exactly what that interest is - perhaps you bought a shed load of ALT shares and are worried about your investment?
Whatever it is, I guess we'll never really know, and it doesn't really matter.
You lost all credibility when you replied to Visual Calls question.
You are no more than a troll now, so I'm going to ignore your future posts - with gritted teeth.
All I'll say in parting is, I pray your own clientele treat you as you applaud them treating others. You are patently a man I would never ever want to do business of any kind with, because I detest fraudsters and liars.
If you really are an ex 747 skipper, you've fallen a long LONG way.
I've read many of your posts in the past, and often agreed with your comments. You even made me giggle at times.
The stuff you're coming out with now is very new, and quite an eye opener. So out of character!
Either I read you wrong, all along - or this particular issue is in some way unusually close to you - because the hysterics you are throwing are pretty unusual too.
I'm tempted to ask you exactly what that interest is - perhaps you bought a shed load of ALT shares and are worried about your investment?
Whatever it is, I guess we'll never really know, and it doesn't really matter.
You lost all credibility when you replied to Visual Calls question.
You are no more than a troll now, so I'm going to ignore your future posts - with gritted teeth.
All I'll say in parting is, I pray your own clientele treat you as you applaud them treating others. You are patently a man I would never ever want to do business of any kind with, because I detest fraudsters and liars.
If you really are an ex 747 skipper, you've fallen a long LONG way.
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Fraudster and liar? Be very careful with the accusations.
Play the ball here and not the man.
You are painting all of this as totally one sided as a black and white issue when it is clearly no such thing. And you still have not discussed how this effects your customers and the long term position of Aer Lingus. Because as I've said you are in a dangerous place now. You've backed yourself into a corner and the general public are baffled by this and you have no public support.
Many of you are trying to stifle debate on this issue, I have already had a PM from one contributor here who was reported for some comments presumably by the pack on here and banned from the thread. It is clear he desire of many is to drive anyone whl dares raise a dissenting voice off this forum. Well I am still here, no warnings from the Mods, no bans so you guys will have to try harder.
You really think Mannion is now some Ogre because he wants to offer differing T's and C's for pilots in another country??
And please, would some pilot here at least try and mention your customers and what you'll do to them next week and how you think they will view AL from now on?
yet again, another letter in the IT today. A fuuny surname given the accusations earlier in the week!
Play the ball here and not the man.
You are painting all of this as totally one sided as a black and white issue when it is clearly no such thing. And you still have not discussed how this effects your customers and the long term position of Aer Lingus. Because as I've said you are in a dangerous place now. You've backed yourself into a corner and the general public are baffled by this and you have no public support.
Many of you are trying to stifle debate on this issue, I have already had a PM from one contributor here who was reported for some comments presumably by the pack on here and banned from the thread. It is clear he desire of many is to drive anyone whl dares raise a dissenting voice off this forum. Well I am still here, no warnings from the Mods, no bans so you guys will have to try harder.
You really think Mannion is now some Ogre because he wants to offer differing T's and C's for pilots in another country??
And please, would some pilot here at least try and mention your customers and what you'll do to them next week and how you think they will view AL from now on?
yet again, another letter in the IT today. A fuuny surname given the accusations earlier in the week!
Madam, - Here we go again. Another strike looming at this vestige of the national airline! As a member of the travelling public, may I make a simple suggestion to both sides? Stop the posturing and think of those who pay your wages. Listen to Kieran Mulvey, sit down now and sort it out - as will inevitably happen after untold hardship is caused. The victims of this present debacle will not forget. - Yours, etc,
TONY PEACOCK, Terenure Road East, Dublin 6.
TONY PEACOCK, Terenure Road East, Dublin 6.
Jolly Green Giant
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What is the problem with using the current T+C's in EI in BFS with the current pilot workforce from EI? Can you answer the question please……
The pilots in EI are having their current T+C's attacked by opening up another base on lower T+C's. CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?
Every lowering of the T+C's in any one base cause’s pressure on pilots from the higher rate base by management to lower T+C’s to the new lower rate. It will have an affect on the market place also. Even you can understand that.
Pilots are a valuable commodity now, lessors can't get enough aircraft to satisfy demand. They are charging in cases 1.5% of the total value of the aircraft in monthly lease fees! If AL run their T's and C's down they will lose their pilots as they will go elsewhere....