Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike
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I'm going to make myself really unpopular here and agree with some of the points made by oneworld, sort of.
EI have made a point of telling the pilot reps that the t&c in belfast will never be used to set the T&C at the dublin base. and they've said that belfast pilots who transfer down to dub will be 'upgraded' to dub rates. basically the idea is that dub and bds will run as totally separate bases.
it's not really the same idea as what ryanair are doing, because as far as i can see the main thing EI are focusing on is work practices not salaries. salary scales start higher, are shorter, and the management has yet to disclose the top level. the idea is that you can progress faster, but only if you work harder. and the general consensus is that the top level will be lower than the top level at dub, which is obviously going to be unpopular. but the basic principle is to move towards more of a meritocracy. so sounds like it'd be a good place to be for a young pilot starting out, but not such a good place to spend your later years. changes will come at dub too, but in reference to pci and not in ref to bds.
aer lingus have, however, made a complete mess of implementing the thing and they're certainly not world leaders at either pr or ir. they should have made it very clear from the outset that any new bases would have separate terms. they should have forged easier transfer routes for pilots who wanted to switch from dub to bds. and they could have adopted a manner less akin to a bull in a china shop.
all mistakes made, and you'd like to think they'd be learned from but ei history suggests they probably won't.
as for the pilots, they're coming off even worse than the management. for the first few days, the logic behind their grievance was totally muddy. apparenlty their letter to DM didn't even outline specifically why they were striking, it just said that they were striking. and from there it got worse and worse. the offer to withdraw from strike if EI did those three conditions looked petulant in the extreme, because they were three completely unworkable conditiosn. for it to be feasible you gotta leave the company some wiggle room, and that left room for none.
so that's my, er, rather long thoughts...
EI have made a point of telling the pilot reps that the t&c in belfast will never be used to set the T&C at the dublin base. and they've said that belfast pilots who transfer down to dub will be 'upgraded' to dub rates. basically the idea is that dub and bds will run as totally separate bases.
it's not really the same idea as what ryanair are doing, because as far as i can see the main thing EI are focusing on is work practices not salaries. salary scales start higher, are shorter, and the management has yet to disclose the top level. the idea is that you can progress faster, but only if you work harder. and the general consensus is that the top level will be lower than the top level at dub, which is obviously going to be unpopular. but the basic principle is to move towards more of a meritocracy. so sounds like it'd be a good place to be for a young pilot starting out, but not such a good place to spend your later years. changes will come at dub too, but in reference to pci and not in ref to bds.
aer lingus have, however, made a complete mess of implementing the thing and they're certainly not world leaders at either pr or ir. they should have made it very clear from the outset that any new bases would have separate terms. they should have forged easier transfer routes for pilots who wanted to switch from dub to bds. and they could have adopted a manner less akin to a bull in a china shop.
all mistakes made, and you'd like to think they'd be learned from but ei history suggests they probably won't.
as for the pilots, they're coming off even worse than the management. for the first few days, the logic behind their grievance was totally muddy. apparenlty their letter to DM didn't even outline specifically why they were striking, it just said that they were striking. and from there it got worse and worse. the offer to withdraw from strike if EI did those three conditions looked petulant in the extreme, because they were three completely unworkable conditiosn. for it to be feasible you gotta leave the company some wiggle room, and that left room for none.
so that's my, er, rather long thoughts...
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Just a couple of points:
I have heard the comparison between Ireland and Denmark a few times now. Apparently Denmark is more expensive than Paddyland. That would imply that if EI opened a base in Copenhagen they would offer direct entry pilots a better salary, better working conditions and a more attractive pension than that which is currently applicable to the Dublin and Cork pilots so that the package was appropriate to the local market.
ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN CAN SEE THAT THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. THE LOCAL MARKET EXPLANATION FOR OFFERING LOWER T'S & C'S IN BELFAST IS NOTHING MORE THAN A COVER FOR THE MANAGEMENTS REAL AGENDA WHICH IS TO REDUCE THE COST OF EMPLOYING BOTH CURRENT AND FUTURE PILOTS.
No one can dispute that this may make good business sense FROM AN ACCOUNTING POINT OF VIEW, but it does not in any way mean that employees are duty bound to accept it and say nothing.
Regardless of your profession, if your bosses told you are required to take a 15% pay cut, not because the company is against the wall but so that they can increase profits and therefore receive bigger bonuses themselves, you would not accept it. You be a COMPLETE FOOL if you did.
For the past year EI have been asking their pilots to do exactly that. The Belfast issue is the latest addition to the current attack on existing employees, where management, after failing to coerce the pilot body into accepting their plans to dramatically reduce their TAKE HOME PAY, dramatically reduce their QUALITY OF LIFE, while subsidising the huge bonuses that are to be paid to the top level management after the event, have decided to GO AHEAD AND IMPLEMENT THEIR PLANS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY HAVE BEEN AGREED OR NOT. AND YOU EXPECT THE PILOTS TO SIT BACK AND PONDER THE BUSINESS ACUMEN INVOLVED IN THE DECISION?? You really must be mad. Or just stupid. Or perhaps both.
I say bravo to EI pilots. Not just because I am sick to the back teeth of what is happening to the aviation industry, but because i would not find it acceptable in ANY INDUSTRY. This particular dispute is different only because the general public perceive all pilots as those who universally receive six figure salaries for a half weeks work.
There was outcry at the Irish Ferries fiasco. There was anger at Bank of Irelands plans. FUNDAMENTALY, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.
I have heard the comparison between Ireland and Denmark a few times now. Apparently Denmark is more expensive than Paddyland. That would imply that if EI opened a base in Copenhagen they would offer direct entry pilots a better salary, better working conditions and a more attractive pension than that which is currently applicable to the Dublin and Cork pilots so that the package was appropriate to the local market.
ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN CAN SEE THAT THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. THE LOCAL MARKET EXPLANATION FOR OFFERING LOWER T'S & C'S IN BELFAST IS NOTHING MORE THAN A COVER FOR THE MANAGEMENTS REAL AGENDA WHICH IS TO REDUCE THE COST OF EMPLOYING BOTH CURRENT AND FUTURE PILOTS.
No one can dispute that this may make good business sense FROM AN ACCOUNTING POINT OF VIEW, but it does not in any way mean that employees are duty bound to accept it and say nothing.
Regardless of your profession, if your bosses told you are required to take a 15% pay cut, not because the company is against the wall but so that they can increase profits and therefore receive bigger bonuses themselves, you would not accept it. You be a COMPLETE FOOL if you did.
For the past year EI have been asking their pilots to do exactly that. The Belfast issue is the latest addition to the current attack on existing employees, where management, after failing to coerce the pilot body into accepting their plans to dramatically reduce their TAKE HOME PAY, dramatically reduce their QUALITY OF LIFE, while subsidising the huge bonuses that are to be paid to the top level management after the event, have decided to GO AHEAD AND IMPLEMENT THEIR PLANS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY HAVE BEEN AGREED OR NOT. AND YOU EXPECT THE PILOTS TO SIT BACK AND PONDER THE BUSINESS ACUMEN INVOLVED IN THE DECISION?? You really must be mad. Or just stupid. Or perhaps both.
I say bravo to EI pilots. Not just because I am sick to the back teeth of what is happening to the aviation industry, but because i would not find it acceptable in ANY INDUSTRY. This particular dispute is different only because the general public perceive all pilots as those who universally receive six figure salaries for a half weeks work.
There was outcry at the Irish Ferries fiasco. There was anger at Bank of Irelands plans. FUNDAMENTALY, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.
Jolly Green Giant
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There was outcry at the Irish Ferries fiasco. There was anger at Bank of Irelands plans. FUNDAMENTALY, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.
AL are opening up a new base outside the ROI. Does Jet Airways pay their local Indian pilots in Delhi the same as their Kennedy based American pilots? What don't you listen to the post by Airgirl? The BFS base will not determine the ROI T's and C's, they are being treated separately. You can't go around guessing and claiming that this will happen when you have no proof whatsover that it ever will.
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US delegation backing Aer Lingus pilots
Saturday, 18 August 2007 07:32
A US-based union, the Allied Pilots' Association, which represents American Airlines' 12,000 pilots, is sending a delegation to Ireland this weekend to support Aer Lingus pilots who are planning a 48-hour strike on Tuesday and Wednesday.
The Association's President, Lloyd Hill, said the efforts by Irish pilots to ensure that the Aer Lingus management complies with the terms of their collective bargaining agreement is a struggle for pilots worldwide. The dispute centres on the airline's opening of a new hub in Belfast.
Source:http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0818/aerlingus.html
Saturday, 18 August 2007 07:32
A US-based union, the Allied Pilots' Association, which represents American Airlines' 12,000 pilots, is sending a delegation to Ireland this weekend to support Aer Lingus pilots who are planning a 48-hour strike on Tuesday and Wednesday.
The Association's President, Lloyd Hill, said the efforts by Irish pilots to ensure that the Aer Lingus management complies with the terms of their collective bargaining agreement is a struggle for pilots worldwide. The dispute centres on the airline's opening of a new hub in Belfast.
Source:http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0818/aerlingus.html
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The last paragraph of the article tells me that the strike will fail to have the desired affect. Apart from the financial penalty incurred in paying FR a wedge to 'blackleg', the public will not even notice there is a strike on. After a few week of no pay etc. the Aer Lingus pilots will be back at work. This is the sad reality of the situation.
A spokesman for Ryanair said the company has written to Aer Lingus offering the use of two of its aircraft and crew on Tuesday and Wednesday.
I expect that Ryanair pilots are telling themselves and each other that they will not do the flights from BFS but the sad truth is that they almost certainly will. The penalties imposed by RYR management if they don't fly are just too severe to consider not crossing the picket line. I do hope and pray that I am wrong but sadly, we live in interesting times.
A spokesman for Ryanair said the company has written to Aer Lingus offering the use of two of its aircraft and crew on Tuesday and Wednesday.
I expect that Ryanair pilots are telling themselves and each other that they will not do the flights from BFS but the sad truth is that they almost certainly will. The penalties imposed by RYR management if they don't fly are just too severe to consider not crossing the picket line. I do hope and pray that I am wrong but sadly, we live in interesting times.
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Oneworld you don't really get it do you? BFS based pilots will eventually be used to do rotations into Dublin and Cork. The situation will then arise where there will be an overcapacity of pilots in Dublin. They will either be threatened with redundancy or offered "new" contracts which will bear a remarkable resemblance to the BFS ones.
The same scenario will hold true for whatever new base the company are thinking of setting up.
The same scenario will hold true for whatever new base the company are thinking of setting up.
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Aer lingus to use two ryanair scab aircraft to operate during next weeks strike.This is the surest evidence that ryanair and its crews are the lowest of the low.The names of those operating will be noted.
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Just want to say that as a member of the public with no affiliation to AL whatsover, I fully support their strike action. Screw Dm for all he's worth guys 
As a footnote it will also make my job (ATC) a little easier
As a footnote it will also make my job (ATC) a little easier
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Oneworld you don't really get it do you? BFS based pilots will eventually be used to do rotations into Dublin and Cork. The situation will then arise where there will be an overcapacity of pilots in Dublin. They will either be threatened with redundancy or offered "new" contracts which will bear a remarkable resemblance to the BFS ones.
only problem with that argument is the company are saying it def won't happen. and by the sounds of it, they'd be wiling to sign an agreement to that effect.
but what you're really missing here is the wider point, pci. changes to the dub base are coming anyway and were coming long before anyone mentioned the belfast word. by the time anyone actually transfers between dub and belfast chances are the stark differences in the t&c won't be as stark anymore...what EI have essentially tried to do is implement their entire pilots' pci wish list in belfast. pci is coming to dub too, but they probably won't get it through in as pure a form. as far as i can see, pci is what this dispute is really about, not belfast. if the pilots could be a bit clearer about what it was they were actually objecting to, and they have been appalling unclear, they might do better in the public support stakes.
only problem with that argument is the company are saying it def won't happen. and by the sounds of it, they'd be wiling to sign an agreement to that effect.
but what you're really missing here is the wider point, pci. changes to the dub base are coming anyway and were coming long before anyone mentioned the belfast word. by the time anyone actually transfers between dub and belfast chances are the stark differences in the t&c won't be as stark anymore...what EI have essentially tried to do is implement their entire pilots' pci wish list in belfast. pci is coming to dub too, but they probably won't get it through in as pure a form. as far as i can see, pci is what this dispute is really about, not belfast. if the pilots could be a bit clearer about what it was they were actually objecting to, and they have been appalling unclear, they might do better in the public support stakes.
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Oneworld22, I do not find your argument convincing nor do I find your condescending tone helpful.
Are you suggesting that having 1. put in place a lower cost base in Belfast 2. disregarded all previous agreements that don't fit with the new business model and with the ability to operate these aircraft out of Dublin (thereby creating a surplus) that DM will now say " thats it, thats as far as I wanted to go, sure I was only seeing if it would work."
I do understand that you have been playing devils advocate however it is time to either provide a plausible alternative scenario / course of action or accept what 480 dedicated professionals (not fools,head bangers or peacocks) have come to realize-this is a union busting exercise.
Are you suggesting that having 1. put in place a lower cost base in Belfast 2. disregarded all previous agreements that don't fit with the new business model and with the ability to operate these aircraft out of Dublin (thereby creating a surplus) that DM will now say " thats it, thats as far as I wanted to go, sure I was only seeing if it would work."
I do understand that you have been playing devils advocate however it is time to either provide a plausible alternative scenario / course of action or accept what 480 dedicated professionals (not fools,head bangers or peacocks) have come to realize-this is a union busting exercise.
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Dublin Airgirl, Where have you been getting your information? When did DM say it wouldn't happen? As for signing a document, we can't even get them to talk, let alone sign something and just to refresh your memory we are going on strike because they are not honoring previously signed documents.
PCI is indeed a wish list we have had this same wish list for many many years with many many titles, I really don't know how to make it clearer " 1 job, 1 seniority list, 1 contract"
PCI is indeed a wish list we have had this same wish list for many many years with many many titles, I really don't know how to make it clearer " 1 job, 1 seniority list, 1 contract"
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ow22,you know nothing of the irish ferries fiasco.if you did you would not be on here offering your self righteous bull****.ask the latvians on those ships now who have already had their terms and conditions savaged.talk to the few irish who chose to retain their jobs on those ships and thus retain their their pensions.how they were put on all the unpopular duties,got the **** end of the stick,e.t.c. until they were forced to leave the company,leaving the way open for the exploitation of foreign european workers.what has irish ferries saved,nothing because most people with any self respect would not set foot on their **** buckets.Rothwell a self confessed mol brown noser.one thing is consistent in that all these supposed c.e.o's have no individual or original ideas.all they can do is plagiarise the actions of others.
My utmost respect to those pilots in aer lingus,who are an example to all pilots.
My utmost respect to those pilots in aer lingus,who are an example to all pilots.
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Dublin Airgirl, just reread your post and need to clarify one more point there are no transfers to Belfast, we specifically asked for this and the answer was an emphatic no. Dublin pilots must apply for the Belfast jobs through the advertised process and then if successful resign their position in Dublin and start in Belfast on lower T&C's. Now think, does it sound like anyone could go for this or has DM engineered this strike?
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yeah, i know there are no transfers at the moment, what i meant was that people had been making the point previously that there could eventually be transfers between the bases and if that were to happen the company has said that everyone at the same base would be paid on the same scale, regardless of the terms and conditions of their original belfast. that's all i meant.
as for dm's comments on belfast conditions not affecting dublin ones, that's been recorded several times in this week's national media.
as for dm's comments on belfast conditions not affecting dublin ones, that's been recorded several times in this week's national media.
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So naive it's actually kinda sweet!(Sorry, maybe it's just my views are coloured by previous management dealings.) We already have agreements. That's why were on strike. Management only accept the bits that suit them. Don't worry you'll soon see what kind of company you work for. Your pilot colleagues are the ONLY people who care about you.
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Please note: Ryanair pilots are NOT scabs.
IALPA has formally asked all IFALPA member associations to co-operate fully with their employers in operating additional/replacement services in/out of Ireland during the strike. This obviously includes our own members in Ryanair!
IALPA has formally asked all IFALPA member associations to co-operate fully with their employers in operating additional/replacement services in/out of Ireland during the strike. This obviously includes our own members in Ryanair!
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Airgirl. This is the company that has a collective binding agreement with its Dublin and Cork pilots. So if it has an agreement with them all then why do you think they decided to draft up new terms and conditions for the 150 or so new pilots that were recruited in the last year or so. Included within these new T&C's was the little matter of paying for your own A320 type rating as well as a higher number of hours before performance pay kicked in. At no time did the company go to the union and try and negotiate. Instead it just pulled out the new contract for the new joiners to sign when they got the handshake and welcome aboard speech at head office. This is just one of a myriad of other issues that the pilots are striking over.
Now surely if management were to be considered truthful then they wouldn't pull stunts like that now would they? But they do and as stated above they continually cherry pick what they want and change T&C's at will. Hence why the pilot body will not trust them as far as they can throw them.
Now surely if management were to be considered truthful then they wouldn't pull stunts like that now would they? But they do and as stated above they continually cherry pick what they want and change T&C's at will. Hence why the pilot body will not trust them as far as they can throw them.
Last edited by potkettleblack; 18th Aug 2007 at 10:54.