Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike

[VORTIME]

Attitude

Isn't it strange how some posters here have adapted the attitude: "support us or get off the forum"

DM is going to try and break the union like WW did. I've great respect for all the AL pilots I know but for shareholder interest will always come first and your benefit from the reduced terms up north in terms of cap app on the share price.

Besides, expect a few hundred lay offs within 3 years. The Irish economy is tanking faster than any of you realise.

I'm not trying to be negative - but unions will cause more lay offs as a long term average because of labour rigidity, they will normally however benefit you in the short-run.

If you don't believe me, check the house completions data out from AIB today and apply the mulitplier effect to the 2007 GNP loss from debt-deflation that will start shortly, then look at the impact of the USD on the Irish subsidaries doing quasi-illegal transfer pricing into the IFSC.

Also, look at oil prices, 2002 - $20, 2003 - $30, 2004 - $40, 2005 - $50, 2006 - $60, 2007 - $70. What can the airline sustain for 2010 (the 3 year period I mentioned)?

Guys - be thankful for very well paid jobs and don't push the boat out too much.

[Headinclouds]

Ah Now here, Nobody forced anyone into this industry, thing s have changed, sure you work harder, but anybody with half, okay, a quarter a Business brain, will realise Market forces and change go hand in hand..............If you dont like it and wanna moan about your Life do it somewhere where it will be appreciated........Can someone clarify what percentage of Shamrock Pilots are Cadets? When your a cadet, your life is shamrock, on your first day 'this how we do things here', etc........but the downside to that is you are living in a tunnel......All of a Sudden its Daytime.........thats life.......

[curser]

VORTIME, I am delighted you respect AL pilots. You may well be better qualified to judge the Irish economy but you haven't a clue regarding union activities. You have latched on to the fact that during boom times unions look to increase the T&C's however during the down turns they work with the management to reduce costs even down to job loss. They do this in a fair and balanced way and historically you are quite wrong, those outside the union will have poorer conditions of employment eg. FR.

[curser]

Headinclouds, Please you're killing me! You are talking such complete and utter nonsense. I and many many like me were not cadets and even the cadets in most cases had lives before joining. It is really starting to sound like a case of sour grapes. We are going on strike because Aer Lingus management is not honoring our collective agreements.

[Headinclouds]

Curser, I am purely giving an example of some mentalities, I would never put you all in the same frame, and appreciate your not all cadets....so apologies for that one.....

In Regards to collective agreement, if its legally binding, then your safe, if its not, I suppose you had better dip into the IALPA Legal Fees Fund and hat the Cap around again for a collection......and off to the courts you go......

[jonjoe]

Headinclouds.
Is there an issue with Aer Lingus cadets, or were you just not selected as one?

[Desk-pilot]

The pilot profession

As a mid-life career changer who has recently joined the airline pilot profession I strongly support EI pilots for protecting their terms and conditions. The way that the status and conditions of pilots is being eroded so that airlines can undercut each other on fares is insane.

Not very long ago pilots were considered well paid compared to other professions but not anymore -as an example:

Average GP salary UK Jan 2007 £118000
Average Consultant salary 2007 £126142
Average IT Consultant/Project Manager £65 000 (Salaried)
Average accountant £100k (Range £30k-£200k)

There's more at: http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/ddrbev2005~annex3

Now I'd dread to think what the average airline pilot is getting nowadays but I'd be surprised if the average was much over £60k because so many of us are now working in the low cost sector. Frankly I resent having to put up with lesser terms and conditions so that my Sister in Law who works in international finance and earns £280 000 a year can fly around on the cheap)

What the public needs are capable, highly trained, motivated, well rested airline professionals at the sharp end of a 100 tonne jet with souls on board, the only question is whether they are prepared to pay for them.

Desk-pilot

[BBT]

Headinclouds, you certainly have your head somewhere strange!

In Regards to collective agreement, if its legally binding, then your safe

With the greatest of respect you are either young and foolish, or just foolish. The only protection you have when agreements are broken, arbitrarly changed, etc. is dialogue (first). If there is no dialogue then Industrial Action (second) is the only way to protect yourself. Safe you most certainly are not. Unless you come from a country where Industrial Law protects agreements directly, the law is a waste of time and money.

Forget the courts. (In any case, what good is winning in court if you have lost the war by the time they get around to telling you you won?).

Aer Lingus is clear about the fact that they are going to do this without talking, despite earlier undertakings to everybody in sight. O.K. then it is down to a fight. Simple. At least the Aer Lingus pilots actually understood this fact, can pull together and made a decision with minimal fuss. Which is more than can be said for some pilot groups - where there seems to be a rush to see who can be first to give away hard won terms and conditions.

Stuff that for a way of behaving. Those of you who believe in handing over part of their salary to others can send me a PM and I will tell you how to send your money to me.

[the grim repa]

are pilots from other companies who fly on their company aircraft,operating for aer lingus while there is a strike classed as "strike breakers".Have heard a rumour that the main opposition and large investor in a.l. is contemplating supplying aircraft and crews.would be a sad day for all concerned.

[alibaba]

Attitude

Isn't it strange how some posters here have adapted the attitude: "support us or get off the forum"

Nobody has said what you have quoted someone to be saying VORTIME.....

You are perfectly entitled to post but you have to expect a tough response on this website with which we all know the title, when you attack pilots T+C's without much argument to your reasoning except to make shareholders more money. This is a pilot’s website not the FT or any other financial blog site. Use a bit of common sense please.

So if the oil price is going up you should be happy to be paying increased ticket prices for your flights to Spain, instead of trying to fund your cheap flights with airlines out of pilot’s pockets. When will the consumer take responsibility for produce and products costing a certain amount of money and not living in a false economy of under valuation?

People do know what they are getting into when they make a career choice but the job has changed quite significantly in the last 20 years or so. Just because you take a career in aviation doesn't mean you should let your T+C's slide.

Headinclouds, I can only assume that you are well travelled and as such you are the definitive voice on T+C's in the airline industry? It is good to know we have you here to answer the EI pilots and cadets questions to whether they are being daft for trying to stop an attack on their T+C's "you are living in a tunnel". These blinkered individual pilots what should we do with them?

If you dont like it and wanna moan about your Life do it somewhere where it will be appreciated

Sorry I thought this was PPRUNE a professional pilots website? It might not be appreciated by you but it doesn't mean it isn't right and far as I was aware nobody was moaning about their life? It sounds a bit like you are the one moaning my friend?

[Captain Galactic]

The pilots have absolutely nothing to worry about, its Mannion's head on the chopping board. What is he going to do? Sack them all and somehow find 500 suitably qualified pilots to replace them? I don't think so. I heard big mouth O' Leary saying management should 'face down this threat' and 'let them strike again and again if they want'.What a great idea Mick, I'm sure the lads and lasses at EI will do just that!Are you sure you still want your 25%?!
Best of luck to the pilots next week, were all behind you!

[Headinclouds]

'With the greatest of respect you are either young and foolish, or just foolish. The only protection you have when agreements are broken, arbitrarly changed, etc. is dialogue (first). If there is no dialogue then Industrial Action (second) is the only way to protect yourself. Safe you most certainly are not. Unless you come from a country where Industrial Law protects agreements directly, the law is a waste of time and money.'

BBT Good Luck with your attitude, It stinks of insecurity and immatureness.......Hope you have a plan 'B'........

[Telstar]

Is there anyone lower then a scab? I hope the guys crossing the picket lines are heckled and booed to within an inch of their lives. I also hope the guys filling these planes with juice refuse to do so, and respect the picket line.

http://rte.ie/news/2007/0815/aerlingus.html

[BBT]

BBT Good Luck with your attitude, It stinks of insecurity and immatureness.......Hope you have a plan 'B'........

Headinclouds, this is my final comment for you are now revealed to be what you are ....

There was no attitude in what I wrote, I merely pointed out that you seem to suffer from the delusion that industrial agreements are protected by the courts. In some countries they are, but not in most. Normally you protect your agreements by industrial muscle. This is a fact, and not an attitude. The issue underlying this dispute was spelled out in today's Irish Times in simple terms - I don't have a copy to hand, but the thrust was that Aer Lingus management had agreed in advance to consult on all issues and blatently failed to honour its commitment to do so. The response by IALPA was immediate. A surprise to you perhaps..... but not to others.

I do not need a "Plan B" for it is not my fight. Your powers of deduction clearly are as weak as your grasp of the issues. (What evidence was there in my post to justify concluding that I was a participant!?).

ASFKAP above you seem to suffer from the notion that

... this dispute about the fact the managment of Aer Lingus haven't spoken to you about their plans or the actual plans themselves?

No, it is because they did not honour an agreement to consult and made it clear that they would not and, indeed, that they will not even allow third party intervention to mediate an agreed outcome. (I listened to somebody from Aer Lingus dodge and weave on this on the radio today, but the refusal to have mediation is obvious enough).

Judging from the rest of your post you would not seem to be the type of person who would care about that kind of thing - an outlook and point of view to which you are, of course, entitled. But let's not make basic mistakes about what this is all about. It is really quite simple.

[punchus]

Asfkap,

Why shouldn't Ryanair protect their investment in the company by stepping in and flying the routes for EI if asked?

.
I have tried to bite my tongue when reading some of the posts on this "professional" pilots forum, but for gods sake.
We are trying to prevent a further erosion of T@C s by management who will have moved on in a few years time to pastures greener(no pun intended).
As I said before if others had did this over the last 20 years of rationalisation the
the industry from a career point of view wouldn't be in the state it's in.
If other pilots operate flights during a strike the the impact of it is negated and no solution through dialogue is found.
Do you think doctors,lawyers,dentists,tradesmen would cross a picket to do the jobs of those on the line. Thats why our industry is in the state it's in.
We have nobody to blame but ourselves. So when some of us try to stand up for ourselves , kindly refrain from undermining that effort. It may indirectly serve to protect the few "professional" pilots that use this network.

[INLAK]

I don't see why they have to seek the approval of the staff whose current terms and conditions remain unaffected.

Unaffected? Management are breaching the pilot's current terms and conditions with their current plans for the BFS base. That's what it's all about!

[Telstar]

Aer Lingus are saying that they have sub contracted 35% of flights out for the days of the strike.

Does anyone know what airlines and which Pilots are coming into Dublin for the 2 days to cross the picket lines? They should be named and shamed on here.

[ZeBedie]

Good luck guys, stand firm and don't blink.

[bnt]

What the public needs are capable, highly trained, motivated, well rested airline professionals at the sharp end of a 100 tonne jet with souls on board, the only question is whether they are prepared to pay for them.

So if the oil price is going up you should be happy to be paying increased ticket prices for your flights to Spain, instead of trying to fund your cheap flights with airlines out of pilot’s pockets. When will the consumer take responsibility for produce and products costing a certain amount of money and not living in a false economy of under valuation?

Well, as an occasional "consumer" of the "product" produced by EI, I have to wonder: just who is this "public" that thinks only of ticket price above all other considerations? Has anyone actually asked them what they want?

The last time I flew RyanAir was about 3 years ago, and the difference in price to London was huge - far more than any difference in salaries could account for. Other times before that, it was because they went places no-one else went direct e.g. Dublin-Aberdeen.

My point is: it takes more than a minor variation in price to make someone choose one over the other. You can't judge what people want solely by what they do (the airline they fly on): it's not an A/B decision on cost alone, and people have to make do with what's actually available.

Safety concerns, bizarre daily price variations, poor transport links, delays due to poor planning (yes, we can tell when turnaround times are unrealistic), and the total trip cost, all come in to it. So what if the basic flight prices went up by 20% to keep staff happy? That would be near-invisible under the added cost of landing at a remote airport, or those bloody "fuel surcharges" that only serve to confuse customers. (You think we don't know that fuel is a major cost in running a plane, and that fuel prices have gone up? )

You're all too busy competing on "headline price" to notice that customers are unhappy with the whole experience of planning, booking, and taking a trip that includes a flight. I don't accept the charge that "the public" are in any way responsible for this mess, and looking down your nose at the "consumer" is, to be blunt, delusional. And now you want to punish "us" for poor airline management? (Anyone got P&O Stena's number?)

Rant over. How much worse would it be if I actually had a trip to take soon?

[PIGDOG]

Does anyone else find it 'interesting' that one of the routes AL are saying will be covered during the strike is the Shannon - Heathrow route? The very one that is going to be dropped to make way for the Belfast base.