Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike

[ItsAjob]

It is a shame to see the fat cat management driving Irelands national flag carrier into the ground for the sake of their bonuses.
In the long term does Ireland really want to see their Airline turn into a discrace like Ryanair ?

[trustno1]

MarkD..if you don't mind can we keep this discussion to EI matters.

If you take a look at the Aer Lingus website under Investor Relations and then click on Corporate Governance you will read this.

The company is committed to maintaining the highest standards of corporate governance and the directors recognise their accountability to the company's shareholders in this regard. This statement describes how the principles of corporate governance are applied to the company and the company's compliance with the code provisions as set out in Section 1 of the Combined Code.

Do a serach for the Combined Code and you will find this.

A. DIRECTORS
A.1 The Board
Main Principle
Every company should be headed by an effective board, which is
collectively responsible for the success of the company.

Supporting Principles
The board’s role is to provide entrepreneurial leadership of the company
within a framework of prudent and effective controls which enables risk to
be assessed and managed. The board should set the company’s strategic
aims, ensure that the necessary financial and human resources are in
place for the company to meet its objectives and review management
performance. The board should set the company’s values and standards
and ensure that its obligations to its shareholders and others are
understood and met.

My question was purely related to good Corporate Governance and it relates to Board oversight of the business. 3 questions which need answers.
1) Was the Board doing it's what its supposed to be doing.
2) Was the Executive Management Team acting within delegated authority in respect of strategic decisions.
3) If the Board was not informed collectively...who was informed individually?

[trustno1]

Powerless...probably too strong a word. However the Combined Code does states the following:
All directors must take decisions objectively in the interests of the
company.
I am not questioning this...I would just like to know if the Board was consulted, when it was consulted, how it was consulted...or whether if the Board wasn't consulted...Did the Executive Management Team act within its delegated authority.

[CaptKremin]

Originally Posted by ASKBAP

I didn't say anything about the "average price" of a house in the ROI, I was talking about the "price" of a house in Dublin, my own house in fact

You're having a laugh right? Your own house? Can't see the relevance mate!

Surely nobody is that dumb they can't grasp the concept of the word average?

Ah sure, lets carry on playing your wee game.

Originally Posted by AFBAKS

But seeing as you brought it up, it might be more accurate to show the average price of a house in 'Dublin' rather than the price of a house in the ROI as a whole because anyone working for Aer Lingus are more likely to live in Dublin (because thats where the airport is).

You wouldn't be trying to pull one over by comparing specific areas in the ROI with average values across NI, eh?
Noooo, not so fast you don't.

See, if you want to get into specifics, what you need to do is compare specifics! Apples with Apples and all that old boy, know what I mean?

Let me illuminate you further my fuzzy friend. Are you ready?
Here goes....

Average Belfast House Price = 331,214 GBP (source: BBC website)

SORT BY: NAMEAV PRICE (£)QUARTERANNUALSALES

£389,289N/AN/AN/ANorth Down
£337,642N/AN/AN/AColeraine/ Limavady/ North Coast
£334,413N/AN/AN/A

Belfast £331,214


£317,141N/AN/AN/AAntrim/ Ballymena
£295,227N/AN/AN/ACraigavon/ Armagh
£291,584N/AN/AN/AEast Antrim
£291,400N/AN/AN/AMid Ulster
£274,950N/AN/AN/ALondonderry/ Strabane
£258,359N/AN/AN/AEnniskillen/ Fermanagh/ S. Tyrone
£253,000N/AN/AN/A

I'll help you out a bit now and convert that to euro for ya.

It's 488,633.69 euro.
Which is 64,000 euro more than the Dublin price (€424,631).

Or 15% more expensive in Belfast if you prefer.

By the way - we're talking 'average' house here, not a secluded 4 bed detached on the Malone Road (where I'm certain all the new ALT Belfast based pilots would like to live, but never will on Mannions 'loser-rate' salary).

Are you catching on to this concept of averages yet? Even you can do it if you really try.

Maybe this is some kind of ROI snobbery actually? You seem to think the poor sods up North are all living in two a penny slums, compared to 'your house' in Dublin. Wake up and smell the coffee mate, NI is no impoverished knackerland, peopled with beggars and losers who are only too happy to scramble for the crumbs that fall off the Republics table, as you seem to believe.
I can sense Belfast hackles rising - and you don't want that, believe me you don't.

[VORTIME]

Am I missing the point here: you want to link your income to house prices?

We now have HPI deflation so not a good arguement unless you want salary deflation.

Now go back to work so I can catch my flights next week (on Wed unfortunately)...

Btw... why has this thread slowly moved towards the Shannon issue? You guys don't care about Belfast at all - you just want to "get even" with management.

btw... did you ever find it strange how pilots always think management is stupid. Then a pilot became management, so he became stupid too...keep away from MBA's folks, ye might end up understanding business rather than rosy flying jobs.

Attack me all you wish, I suspect you'll move to defensive mode now...

VT

[CaptKremin]

Originally Posted by Vortime

Am I missing the point here: you want to link your income to house prices?

Err, no actually.
It was yer mate ASSWAP who first raised it as a comparator.
I think its all a bit academic really.

I think he'll drop it now and run since its proven to be a losing gambit.

I can see you aren't backing that loser. So whats your angle then?
Take your best shot.

Oh, wait, its just the time honoured "Shut up and do as you're told 'cos you don't understand the divine intricacies of 'management" gambit?
I see.

NEXT.....

[mini]

mini has roots both sides of the "Border"

His Brother in Law bought a 3 bed terraced in Portadown 15 months ago for 56K ...sold it recentely for 120K... with no mods, show me that in Dublin.

Still think the strike is a hiding to nothing though...

[PAXboy]

Mooney12

The company should be brought to it's knee's over this

As a mere pax may I ask:

• If the company is brought to it's knees - how will it ever get up to continue being an employer of anyone?

• Since your message header states that your location is 'Norwich' are you a shareholder and/or employee of this Dublin based company?
  
  I only ask, as it is slightly easier to call for a company to 'be brought to it's knees' if you are not going to be be directly affected by the actions you are calling for.

[CaptKremin]

Yes, I happen to agree with you PAXboy.
Mooney12 - wise up!
I'm damn sure that every ALT pilot wants to see the company growing and prospering. The Belfast base is a brilliant idea, and it should be followed by a Manchester base, a Madrid base, a Prague base, and ever onward. But NOT on Mannions scummy 'take-it-or-leave-it' terms.

[liffy2A]

100% EI pilots

Fair play EI pilots, I'm 100% behind your decision. Pprune wouldnt have as many bitchy post about other airlines if they were all like you standing together. AL is a career airline and I hope it always will be, this is why so many want to join. Its not a stepping stone like 95% out there. Hope all is settled soon with as little disruption as possible.
P.s. I dont care about house prices, If everyone keeps undercutting the industry 10yrs time we'll all be living in shoes and it will be the least of our worries!

[Le Rocket]

OK People, let's look at this from the real world please.
Aerlingus floats and DM heads off on holidays...mmm! Two days later, there's a hostile bid for AerLingus and golden boy is on the beach. The share price is down to 242 and two recent vital decisions on the future of the company have been made with absolutely no major shareholder approval or mandate!

Now for all you ignorant wannabees out there, get the facts before you start to leap. Imagine I've been a Captain in Aerlingus for the last few years and dedicated my life to the airline, good times and bad. I'm from Belfast or the like and think that this might me a good opportunity for me to return home to the ole alma mater. This man is telling me that I have to resign my job, give up all I've worked for and attend assessment for Belfast..I don't think so! If I'm an F/O with 8 years experience, shouldn't I be given the option of going to BFS, or any other base for my command if there are vacancies? Isn't that progressive? Yeah, forget about me too, I don't mind if I'm walked all over, and my loyalty quashed..!

T & C's can work across the board. Look at easyJet, they hire people all over Europe on the same contract, and let them decide where they want to go. If the base is available they go, if not they wait. There are no bully boy tactics and the process is fair and transparent. This is merely a smokescreen for a greedy CEO's personal agenda, who thinks that loyal workers throughout the airline can be walked on...well they can't!

Sorry, DM you're no Michael O'Leary.

P.S Should have gone to specsavers

[chec tunset]

Gonna have to burst your bubble on some of that le rocket. Easyjet are not employing people on the same contracts across Europe. Spain has a different contract which Balpa have been fighting since inception. They are about to impose a new one in France and have indicated that this is they way they will go in future. Basically their European operation is a mess contractually as are the tax issues.
Now when it comes to Aer Lingus, I applaude the solidarity shown by the union membership. If Easyjet's members had the same bottle they would be getting much further on pay and conditions. EI's BFS plan however will be complicated by FEC legislation and you can be sure that a deal must've been done with the Assembly for them to openly endorse it. That is where the simplicity of promoting SFO's to BFS as Captains falls down.
If Capts are going to be paid the 76K quoted this morning then they are pitching in at the upper level you could expect in BFS. I'm wondering where the sting is? I have a hunch it's pension. Would it not be better to see exactly what these new Terms are first before going on a 2 day strike?
Clearly the employment law in Ireland differs widely from that in the UK as any union playing that card in the same fashion would find itself bankrupt very quickly. Sad but true. This just goes to highlight the fact that although BFS is only up the motorway, working life can be very different.
I hope both sides in this argument can reach a suitable compromise. Even Paisley and McGuinness talk these days.

[fmgs]

EI BFS T's & C's

So, does anyone have the T's & C's and salary being offered by EI for BFS?

It's just that I need a good laugh

[OneWorld22]

MOL is right. AL pilots are a load of headbangers, Imagine Unions and workers thinking they have jurisdiction over terms and conditions in other countries?

This is ridiculous, T's and C's will be different from market to market and will depend on local market conditions. AL management totally have the right to alter those conditions when setting up a base in another jurisdiction,especially in another country.

This is shameful action and yet again it's the public who will suffer. Imagine a group of shareholders deliberately setting bout to damage their own company? GUBU at it's finest.

[waffler]

To all the spotters; this is a professional pilots forum, not all things that are known are posted here for your entertainment.Please keep your ill informed comments to yourselves.

[OneWorld22]

This is not a closed forum Waffler and is open to everybody registered with PPRuNe and you are not a moderator. So quit the policing.

[curser]

oneworld22, come now, don't start acting the voice of moderation your opening line was to call us head bangers you were deliberately trying to provoke the reaction you got. You are aghast at a union thinking it has jurisdiction over foreign T&C's and yet had you bothered to get informed you might have realized we have just such an agreement. IALPA is and has always been ready to negotiate a new deal however DM and his team have decided to bypass all that. Yes we are share holders which should show you how seriously we take this move by DM. Perhaps you might now stop calling us names and if you are indeed a aviation consultant bring something new and constructive to this discussion.

[jonjoe]

oneworld22.
thankyou for your insulting comment to the Aerlingus pilots. you have obviously been following this issue closely, and have come to this informed viewpoint.

Back to the main issue. This is about enforcing mutually agreed work practice, and job security agreements. These agreements already exist, and management have chosen to set them aside when setting up the Belfast base. It is about protecting the jobs and careers of pilots already employed by Aer lingus, as well as the new pilots to be based in Belfast. Going on strike is the last option available, as management have gone ahead with recruitment without any discussion or agreeement in place.

[Headinclouds]

So who actually believes that this strike will achieve anything? and what exact result, are the EI Flightdeck looking for?

(By the Way No-one has still comfirmed if the 'NEWJOINERS' are on the 'Same' Contract yet? )

[alibaba]

It does get a little alarming when you see so many spotters and weekend warriors coming on this forum calling "professional pilots" no less on a forum titled "professional pilots rumour network" this; "pilots are a load of headbangers".

Erm, I think you might be the head banger mate. Do you not see the stupidity of your post in light of where you are posting it?

I am sure you would not want the pilot in charge of your safety being a head banger would you?

I think shareholders, management, spotters and pax do not quite understand the professional life of many pilots. It might be ok for you to work 9-5 mon to fri then enjoy your weekend flying or getting a city break or even going to Thailand for a week or two then come on here and spout off whatever you think is ok. But many pilots on here are trying to save this profession from going down the toilet not so that you can go to Spain for a fiver. Because you start paying a fiver and you will get five pounds worth of service and standards will deteriorate on all fronts.

More and more individuals are shunning pilot training because of the initial costs and the deteriorating T+C's for professional pilots. Trying to get pilots to undercut each other is an abysmal business strategy and will lead to a gradual decrease in standards as it does in any other industry. If you don't want to pay the standard of pay to pilots you are going to get the best and brightest individuals shunning this industry which is going to lead to a decrease in talent or brain drain.

When are people going to understand that you have to pay for quality individuals who are going to pilot aeroplanes to a high professional standard.

Well done to the EI pilots who are setting their line in the sand on a blatant attack on their own T+C's and an attack on all professional pilots T+C's throughout Europe! You have the utmost respect and support from your fellow colleagues.