Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike

[CaptKremin]

Originally Posted by ASWIPE

So is this dispute about the fact the managment of Aer Lingus haven't spoken to you about their plans or the actual plans themselves?
If they've found a cost effective way to expand the airline by opening a new base outside the jurisdiction and the board agrees its in the best interests of the shareholders then I don't see why they have to seek the approval of the staff whose current terms and conditions remain unaffected.

The Aer Lingus pilots are shareholders, and they feel this is not in their best interests. It also breaches solemn agreements with the pilots. Confrontational and aggressive management causes a breakdown in trust, and destroys good working relationships. The result is perfectly predictable.

....some people, perhaps naievley assumed that with the staff owning such a large slice of the company they would 'look at the bigger picture' (the survival of the airline) in when it came to matters of industrial relations.

The staff in Aer Lingus paid for their shareholding in cash or productivity. They were a punt for them too, and none of them will be retiring to their yacht in the Med on the proceeds.

A decent JOB is worth more to people than a smallholding.

You may find that difficult to comprehend, since (given your comments) you are obviously living off the proceeds of your own lucrative investments, and can't relate to the irritating 'little people' who must work to make you wealthy.

What message will this strike send out to current and perhaps more importantly future investors in the company if Aer Lingus backs down on this one? Answer, in Aer Lingus the unions still run the company and have the final say in all managment decisions.

I would say the message it will send out is this - "if you want to make a fast buck off the exploitation of stupid 'little people', look elsewhere. Try NIKE or Ryanair".

And I would say it also says - "if you want to invest in an ethical company, which does not mistreat employees, and which does not operate discriminatory employment practices - put your money here".

I understand that ethical investment (also known as Socially Responsible Investment) is one of the fastest growing sectors in the money markets.

What if the company did decide to back down and postpone or cancel the opening of the Belfast base along with the recruitment of the new staff on the new contracts, would this be an acceptable outcome to the pilots and their union representatives?

No, and it would be a stupid and unnecessary outcome.
The Belfast base WILL go ahead, but it will be done on an agreed basis.

Why shouldn't Ryanair protect their investment in the company by stepping in and flying the routes for EI if asked?

Ryanair can do what they like - but they don't own LHR slots, so your point is stupid. Again.

[OneWorld22]

Aer Lingus's responsibility as a commerical entity is to maximise the return to it's shareholders.

If the board has taken a decision to expand the airline and secure long term growth by opening another base in another jurisdiction and adapt local market conditions to pilots who will operate from that base, that is a management decision and it seems a responsible one bearing in mind what Flynn said...

But yet again narrow minded Unions will try and stick their oar in and actually stop a company they are a shareholder of from expanding!! Why? because of the paranoia that big bad Dermot will apply these new T's and C's to the ROI pilots...

And yet again, no mention from Aer Lingus pilots of the effect that this will have on their customers. Sod them, just make sure I have my job for life...

Laughable on one hand but in reality, a disgrace.

[CaptKremin]

Aer Lingus's responsibility as a commerical entity is to maximise the return to it's shareholders.

Absolutely.

If the board has taken a decision to expand the airline and secure long term growth by opening another base in another jurisdiction and adapt local market conditions to pilots who will operate from that base, that is a management decision and it seems a responsible one...

Absolutely, as long as they comply with existing industrial agreements, freely entered into. If they break agreements, then that is irresponsible.

bearing in mind what Flynn said...

Who is Flynn, and what did he say???

But yet again narrow minded Unions will try and stick their oar in and actually stop a company they are a shareholder of from expanding!! Why?

No, not to stop it expanding. To stop it exploiting them and the new employees.

because of the paranoia that big bad Dermot will apply these new T's and C's to the ROI pilots...

Paranoia?
I suggest you research what goes on at FR. Plenty of info on this very site.

And yet again, no mention from Aer Lingus pilots of the effect that this will have on their customers.

Equally you are the first protagonist to mention the passengers!
Most of the 'anti' comments have been whinges about the poor benighted shareholders! Now, as an afterthought, you remember the public?

Why don't you ask Mr.Mannion if he'd like to apologise to his Shannon - Heathrow passengers for the permanent disruption of their services!

[MarkD]

pigdog - it could be that EI are prioritising codeshare routes?

[mini]

Arguments for and against... both sides well entrenched.

At some stage someone will have to sort this out, I don't envy them whoever they are.

[Captain Greaser]

It wasn't so long ago that the then current pilots in Aer Lingus pilots voted in yellow pack workers in order for themselves to get a pay rise. In the late 80's direct entry pilots were employed on a salary £10,000 a year less than what the then current pilots started on ten years before hand.
Now the currecnt pilots who have been watching the fat cats retire earning twice as much as they are on have taken a stand and will not stand for any more erosion of there working conditions. And besides there are agreements in place which the company have ignored.
Good luck to the EI pilots.At least they have balls unlike so many else in our profession.
I have been flying for 27 years.All bar three years in the far east and the uk have been in Ireland.
I have now turned my back on Irish companies to go work for Easy. The terms and conditions have gotten so bad in Irish companies that Irish people do not want to work in them. Try working for 14 hours in an aircraft that has no ovens and you have no time for a meal break and no access to hot food? Just look at the mass exodeuse from Ryan Air and City Jet. The only descent job left in the Republic is Aer Lingus and now the management want to follow O,Leary into the gutter.
I for once find myself backing Aer Lingus pilots 100%

[CaptKremin]

Do you feel people who work for NIKE or Ryanair are somehow inferior to you?

On the contrary - I believe it is YOU who consider them stupid little people. Stupid and insignificant! Mere chattels, who tend to get in the way of your almighty free market by making inconvenient demands for fairness and respect! Ryanair and NIKE are plain examples of how your business heroes will treat anyone unable to stand up to them. You should be ashamed of yourself in supporting them!

If you read my post you'll see I didn't say anything about RYR flying to LHR, somebody mentioned in an earlier post the possibility of Ryanair operating some flights for EI during the strike, this is the point I was referring to.

And my point is that your point is irrelevant because Ryanair does not own the slots. The slots are the issue - get it?

I have a 'relatively' small shareholding in Aer Lingus

Really? My mistake! You sound like you own the place!
Why should working people in Aer Lingus or NI put your 'relatively' small holding in front of their own survival? Do you think they should? Would you sacrifice your future for a greedy stranger with a 'relatively small holding' in your business?

but that makes me an owner none the less so I am entitled to a voice

Yes certainly. A 'relatively small voice'. Not the bombastic and domineering one you are using. If you want a bigger voice, buy more shares and suppport the company - which is what the Aer Lingus pilots have all done.

[keepitlit]

Heard the Belfast recriutment has been put on hold already, oh this has all been well thought out!

rgds

Keepitlit

[jonjoe]

IFALPA recruitment ban in place for Belfast based positions.

[FO JimmieJames]

I'm in the Priority Pool for AL. Why have they not used the pool for Belfast? I just want to fly - I'm tired of waiting.

[jonjoe]

FO JJ.
You will start in dublin under current T&C's. the company wants to open belfast base with new contracts, different T&Cs. that is what this whole row is about.......

[snipes]

I'm in the Priority Pool for AL. Why have they not used the pool for Belfast? I just want to fly - I'm tired of waiting.

Sheesh.

And to protect you from yourself it appears. Yes you want to fly now - you'd probably take any conditions offered at the drop of a hat just to get your bum on a shinny green plane, but it's pilots like this that screw everyone up in the long run.

I hope you get selected soon, but one day you'll hopefully be able to look back and thank the EI guys for what they're doing TO SAVE/IMPROVE YOUR CAREER TODAY!

I fear that eaten bread is soon forgotten though...

[Green Army]

Hi,

I am in the Priority Pool for Al as well...SINCE MAY!!! Did all the test in a week and now I am still waiting! When do they think they can start the next course? And will this be 2007 or 2008, will it be Belfast or Dublin.

I wish the people form AL would make up their minds and let us know.!! Instead of constant waiting without any news or updates.

Is there anyone from within AL here that can help us and give an idea when the will start the next courses. I am already rated so how hard can it be?

And NO I wont accept Belfast under thes conditions...I would strike as well. I am with the AL pilots, all of them! And mechanics...and cabin crew....and office staff!!! Its not just the pilots but its all of them that work for AL.

MANY THANKS!!

[Blinkz]

I'm another in the pool waiting to hear. I have to say I was a little disappointed to not be called for Belfast but I understand the reasons behind why. I think it will be better to let IALPA and Aer Lingus come to a mutual agreement about the T&Cs and then hopefully the pool will be used for recruitment.

[CaptKremin]

I believe it was you who 'called' them "stupid little people", and now "stupid and insignificant"

Your attitude to the Staff and Pilots of Aer Lingus is clear enough. Don't try to back-pedal and pretend you give a damn about them now, or any other worker, or even the travelling public for that matter.

You care only about your fast-buck investment paying off for you.

put a little 'Wealth Warning' on the Aer Lingus share certificates to remind us of the perils involved with investing in risky ventures

So you didn't think your investment strategy through too well? Oh dear, It would certainly appear so!

Did you not understand that the aviation sector is one of the most volatile in the money markets? I could've alerted you to that. Pity you didn't seek information or advice before taking such a risky punt!

Perhaps you do indeed need a banner 'health warning' to help you avoid risky investment sectors where you are clearly out of your depth?

Write to the Irish Stock Exchange, see if they'll give you a dig out.
I imagine their answer will be 'Shares can fall as well as rise'!
Oooerrr!!!

But hey...you made a bad choice, maybe you'll lose a few quid. You'll soon get over it.
My advice to you now is - SELL SELL SELL!

Meanwhile the pilots at Aer Lingus are fighting to save their livliehoods and careers....you get zero sympathy from me.

And I see from the last several posts that the mood is against you.

[OneWorld22]

aviation sector is one of the most volatile in the money markets

Sorry, the "money markets"???? And you're trying to advise someone here on investments?!

Stick to flying aircraft mate.

fighting to save their livliehoods and careers

oh for f**k sake, start the violins lads. Fighting for Careers?? Oh purleassse. An airline sets up a new base and wishes to introduce T's and C's appropriate tp that local market a market in another ciountry and you take that to ean your career is under threat?

The shrill levels from EI pilots has been incredible. Complete overreaction on every level and yet again, sod the consumer, the consumer who keeps the airline in the air.

[CaptKremin]

Sod the consumer? Thats Mr.Mannions attitude.
As for shrill...it seems to me that you need to check your own posts. You might start by moderating the foul language.

[Le Rocket]

Hey Oneworld, the fact that there's a One in your user name leads me to believe that you think quite highly of yourself. That doesn't surprise me, based on your previous posts.
I don't know what you do for a living and I don't care. I do know however, that you're not a pilot, so the fact is you will never 'get it'.

The point is this. Aerlingus pilots don't care about the develpoment of other bases. They encourage it. They do however, care about their livelihoods and the future of aviation as a whole.

[OneWorld22]

Your "livliehoods" oh give me a break. Your "livliehood" is not under threat. "Future of aviation"??? So the future of aviation is under threat because a commercial entity makes a decision based on long term growth and wishes to pay local market salaries???

It is the Pilots who are calling for strike action, not Mannion so try another angle eh? You have NO support from the general public on this one. And it your customers come from the General public, just remember that, (remember your customers? the people you are supposed to be serving?)

A letter written to the Irish times today sums it up..

Madam, - If Aer Lingus were to open a hub in Sydney, or Chicago, or Ulan Bator, should the pilots there have the same pay and conditions as pilots flying out of Dublin?

This disgraceful strike demonstrates once again the basic attitudes that pervade many (if not most) Government and semi-state bodies: an absolute contempt for the needs of the customer, an overweening sense of entitlement, a mythology of grievance, and a conviction that these organisations exist not for the benefit of owners, customers, the government or the public at large, but for the benefit of the employees. - Yours, etc,

JOHN STAFFORD, Knocklyon, Dublin 16.

That totally sums it up and also is clear that this is the feeling of many of the pilots here. That EI exists for your benefit, not your customers. That you have a lifelong career at EI and that's all that matters, which of course is ridiculous.

And foul language? Grow a spine.

[CaptKremin]

Mannion appeared on the RTE news program 'Prime Time' at 2130.

They replayed his interview from the same show in March 2006 - during the run up to the IPO.

In the archived interview he was asked about the guarentees on LHR slots - given the particular need Ireland has for airlinks with the UK.
Mr.Mannions response then was that the Governments 25% share-holding were an absolute guarentee that if any Aer Lingus management decided to do something against the national interest that they could use their shareholding 'to block the decision'.

Mannion was asked if he still believed this now.

He looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights. He attempted to dodge the question, but was asked again if he still believes the Government are correct to block such decisions....and again he dodged the question.

It was an ignoble performance. He was damned by his own words.

The fact is, Mannion made many such soothing promises and 'solemn undertakings' before the IPO. He promised no further sacrifices would be demanded off the staff - and he lied. He promised all collective agreements (including the pilots SCOPE clause) would be honoured - and he lied. He promised the slots were safe in his hands - and he lied again.

Yet, in spite of all the lies and broken promises, this is the fault of the pilots?

The other news tonight was that Aer Lingus have rejected IALPA's offer of talks....he is gagging for the fight, and sod the customers (are you getting this OW22?).

His position is extremely precarious now.
There will be fireworks at tomoprrows meeting between him and the Shannon lobby. Can't wait to see it.

As soon as that RTE program is online I'll post a link.

Originally Posted by OW22

Grow a spine.

You're advice appears contradictory. I thought you were previously recommending the spineless response of capitulating to bullying arrogance and contract breaches? Which is it to be?