Leaving before your bond is up
Join Date: Nov 1999
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I think sapco2's advice is spot on. Well done to you as well, for reading the contract. It is amazing how many people seem not to, and then complain endlessly for the consequences.
I am not sure it is a paradox, in that the company are probably protecting their position in the event that they feel obligated to be forced to terminate an employment . For example in the UK a major credit card provider has just terminated a lot of agreements (cards) for customers, many of whom have acted in perfectly good faith. In doing this (of course) they are not writing off the balance because the contract allows them to terminate the account under these terms.
Contracts are nearly always written to protect the seller and you must ensure you understand the agreement you are entering into and accept the terms stated in that agreement. Don't pay too much attention to the "its illegal" screamers, as a contract is a consent agreement between two or more parties, usually drawn up by a legal department.
I am not sure it is a paradox, in that the company are probably protecting their position in the event that they feel obligated to be forced to terminate an employment . For example in the UK a major credit card provider has just terminated a lot of agreements (cards) for customers, many of whom have acted in perfectly good faith. In doing this (of course) they are not writing off the balance because the contract allows them to terminate the account under these terms.
Contracts are nearly always written to protect the seller and you must ensure you understand the agreement you are entering into and accept the terms stated in that agreement. Don't pay too much attention to the "its illegal" screamers, as a contract is a consent agreement between two or more parties, usually drawn up by a legal department.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Well thanks everyone you were a big help.
If they change the term i do intend to stay there for a long time since i have been waiting for this kind of job for 7 years.Otherwise i will take another job offer i have.We will see....
Thanks again
If they change the term i do intend to stay there for a long time since i have been waiting for this kind of job for 7 years.Otherwise i will take another job offer i have.We will see....
Thanks again
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Hello chaps,
just a question regarding this...I have paid two bonds so far in my career .Recently joined a company (well two years ago act).The bond for this company 25000 pounds over five years reducing annually.I signed in good faith believing it was reasonable.
The training consisted of me being sent overseas with a laptop to self study with no pay apart from 2 pounds an hour,then exam,then 9 sessions in fixed sim, then 8 sessions in moving sim with test on 9th session,one hour of circuits in a/c then line training(took about five weeks to line training).
I have since discovered the true cost of my training from the horses mouth so to speak.About 16000 pounds.
IMHO they lied to me about the cost first of all and they also paid me below minimum wage during my training.Don't like people who lie. I may have a new job and don't feel too keen to pay them.
Any opinions would be welcome
rgds Seagoll
just a question regarding this...I have paid two bonds so far in my career .Recently joined a company (well two years ago act).The bond for this company 25000 pounds over five years reducing annually.I signed in good faith believing it was reasonable.
The training consisted of me being sent overseas with a laptop to self study with no pay apart from 2 pounds an hour,then exam,then 9 sessions in fixed sim, then 8 sessions in moving sim with test on 9th session,one hour of circuits in a/c then line training(took about five weeks to line training).
I have since discovered the true cost of my training from the horses mouth so to speak.About 16000 pounds.
IMHO they lied to me about the cost first of all and they also paid me below minimum wage during my training.Don't like people who lie. I may have a new job and don't feel too keen to pay them.
Any opinions would be welcome
rgds Seagoll
Join Date: Jun 2001
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April Fools Day is coming up!
STOP! NOW!
If you sign, you are a prostitute. Ya'll have to stop now!, wait 2 months, if no one signs, things will change. Keep signing, ain't nuthin gonna change. Go to the drug store and buy a box of bandages; if you sign; your slittin your throats!
STOP! NOW!
If you sign, you are a prostitute. Ya'll have to stop now!, wait 2 months, if no one signs, things will change. Keep signing, ain't nuthin gonna change. Go to the drug store and buy a box of bandages; if you sign; your slittin your throats!
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Well Seagoll,
Lately i really think is up to you.A few months ago i resigned from the company i was working.My boss asked me to pay for the type rating he had payed for me and i refused saying i haven't signed anything so i don't owe you anything.Then he said yes you haven't sign a bond but there is an ethical bond and you have to pay.I replied that ethics also dictate other things which in your company aren't proper,meaning all the things that made me to want to quit in the first place.So he stoped asking.But after me 2 other collegues resigned also and ofcourse he asked them to pay as well.And not only that he called the airlines that these guys are going to work and told them not to hire them.In the first airline it caused a problem to my friend because they told him that we can't hire you unless you pay your previous employer.In the second case the airline told him to mind your own bussiness and manage your airline we are going to hire him.So as you can see it can go both ways,it depends if your present employer has access to your future employer and can influence them.In both cases he tried to do harm.I am lucky so far because in my case he can't contact my present employer.If he could i am sure he would and then i would backfire.
So you never know what might happen.If you are happy were you are working now and everything is good don't resign only because they lied.
If you are not happy there and you have found a better job that best suits you then go for it and don't look back i mean it's your life.No airline will care for you so you have to care for yourself and move forward to evolve.
GOOD LUCK
Lately i really think is up to you.A few months ago i resigned from the company i was working.My boss asked me to pay for the type rating he had payed for me and i refused saying i haven't signed anything so i don't owe you anything.Then he said yes you haven't sign a bond but there is an ethical bond and you have to pay.I replied that ethics also dictate other things which in your company aren't proper,meaning all the things that made me to want to quit in the first place.So he stoped asking.But after me 2 other collegues resigned also and ofcourse he asked them to pay as well.And not only that he called the airlines that these guys are going to work and told them not to hire them.In the first airline it caused a problem to my friend because they told him that we can't hire you unless you pay your previous employer.In the second case the airline told him to mind your own bussiness and manage your airline we are going to hire him.So as you can see it can go both ways,it depends if your present employer has access to your future employer and can influence them.In both cases he tried to do harm.I am lucky so far because in my case he can't contact my present employer.If he could i am sure he would and then i would backfire.
So you never know what might happen.If you are happy were you are working now and everything is good don't resign only because they lied.
If you are not happy there and you have found a better job that best suits you then go for it and don't look back i mean it's your life.No airline will care for you so you have to care for yourself and move forward to evolve.
GOOD LUCK
My current employer requires a type rating before they will hire you. So either you come rated and experienced already or do the rating at your own expense and risk with their training provider, who coincidently make the aircraft we are buying. Standard deal when buying a new airliner would include X number of ratings provided per aircraft. These are then onsold to new joiners at a handsome profit.
Upgrade requires a bond of approx US$20 000 reducing over two years. This is considerably in excess of the cost of sim time (bulk rates) and instructor time.
This is to stop people leaving for better jobs, or make money out of those that do. Our current conditions are below current going rates and we have a relatively high turn over of pilots.
Currently considering a new job where ther is no bond for the upgrade, airline believes in making people want to stay rather than forcing them.
I can understand turbo prop and smaller jet operators having a reasonable bond, directly related to training costs, which in most countries would be a tax deduction for them anyway. These companies couldn't afford to train people and have them leave after six months once they become employable with the better operators.
If I gained an upgrade and wanted to leave early I would be prepared to negotiate on the direct costs to the company, I wouldn't feel obliged to pay their mark up.
Upgrade requires a bond of approx US$20 000 reducing over two years. This is considerably in excess of the cost of sim time (bulk rates) and instructor time.
This is to stop people leaving for better jobs, or make money out of those that do. Our current conditions are below current going rates and we have a relatively high turn over of pilots.
Currently considering a new job where ther is no bond for the upgrade, airline believes in making people want to stay rather than forcing them.
I can understand turbo prop and smaller jet operators having a reasonable bond, directly related to training costs, which in most countries would be a tax deduction for them anyway. These companies couldn't afford to train people and have them leave after six months once they become employable with the better operators.
If I gained an upgrade and wanted to leave early I would be prepared to negotiate on the direct costs to the company, I wouldn't feel obliged to pay their mark up.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Standard deal when buying a new airliner would include X number of ratings provided per aircraft.
Er.......... not quite. it is a customer option, "we will train five crews per aircraft" etc. Or, we will provide a better galley, a better set of airstairs, an improved interior, or any number of add on options the customer would like. Crew training is not a standard deal at all but if the customer is a new one, new to the aircraft, then the manufacturer would always hope they took their training from them and may even make it conditional, (Airbus).
Er.......... not quite. it is a customer option, "we will train five crews per aircraft" etc. Or, we will provide a better galley, a better set of airstairs, an improved interior, or any number of add on options the customer would like. Crew training is not a standard deal at all but if the customer is a new one, new to the aircraft, then the manufacturer would always hope they took their training from them and may even make it conditional, (Airbus).
Join Date: Nov 2004
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What about bonds for recurrent training?
A friend of mine is bonded for his intial for 3 years which I agree is fair.
But he is also expected to sign a seperate 1 year bond for recurrent training, that seems abit harsh.....comments welcome.
A friend of mine is bonded for his intial for 3 years which I agree is fair.
But he is also expected to sign a seperate 1 year bond for recurrent training, that seems abit harsh.....comments welcome.
If you are typed, however not current when joining a new show then yes I would say a 1 year bond would be acceptable
.
However if currently employed by said operator and they wish you to enter into an annual bond for recurrent then my answer would be
off....... twice and for the goat you came in on for trying to pull that sh!te
Some people will never get it.
Our mob is fair.
3yr Bond for an initial if not typed, including when new to type while currently employed by said organisation.
1yr if typed however not current & you are a new hire
0 (Zero) bond if typed and current, you are cycled into a company recurrency schedule
If moving seat on the same type then Zero bond, if moving type and not current however rated on said type, Zero bond.
Works well, keeps everyone happy and is generally fair, especially if you have a history and track record with the firm then these bonds have been relaxed somewhat....... if they like ya
.However if currently employed by said operator and they wish you to enter into an annual bond for recurrent then my answer would be
off....... twice and for the goat you came in on for trying to pull that sh!teSome people will never get it.
Our mob is fair.
3yr Bond for an initial if not typed, including when new to type while currently employed by said organisation.
1yr if typed however not current & you are a new hire
0 (Zero) bond if typed and current, you are cycled into a company recurrency schedule
If moving seat on the same type then Zero bond, if moving type and not current however rated on said type, Zero bond.
Works well, keeps everyone happy and is generally fair, especially if you have a history and track record with the firm then these bonds have been relaxed somewhat....... if they like ya
Join Date: Jul 2008
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What are peoples experiences of leaving Middle Eastern carriers without paying the bond. How does this affect you in terms of your new employment and chances of prosecution in other middle eastern countries if passing through. Also can/will they chase you for the bond to your home country?
Join Date: Nov 1999
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If you have entered into a contract, wouldn't the easiest thing be simply to settle it?
If any party is owed money they have a choice to pursue the debt. Common sense (and that isn't always the driving motivation) would suggest it depends on the size of the debt and the reasonable likelyhood of recovery. There are international treaties (for example, the Hague Convention on the Service Abroad of Judicial and Extra Judicial Documents in Civil and Commercial Matters and the New york convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards, Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1933, etc.) that enable process, judgments and awards in one contracting state to be enforced in another. Then there is the possibility that the breach of contract would be the causal action basis for bringing a claim in your home country. If it is a route you are considering, then it would seem to warrant specialized professional advice well beyond that you are likely to find on an internet bulletin board.
Some countries regard this type of debt as a criminal matter rather than simply a civil one. This invites the potential problems that might be encountered in travelling to other countries that might share co-operation treaties or agreements that could affect you adversely.
Dismissing this, there is then the problem likely to be encountered should you ever need to provide a reference from the aggrieved ex-employer.
Then there are secondary issues that people rarely consider. For example if you are ever arrested anywhere (even if it is only for 10 minutes and you are subsequently released,) you will encounter problems with visa rules for entering certain countries (for example the USA.)
As I said at the start, wouldn't the easiest thing be to simply settle the contract, or negotiate a settlement of the contract?
If any party is owed money they have a choice to pursue the debt. Common sense (and that isn't always the driving motivation) would suggest it depends on the size of the debt and the reasonable likelyhood of recovery. There are international treaties (for example, the Hague Convention on the Service Abroad of Judicial and Extra Judicial Documents in Civil and Commercial Matters and the New york convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards, Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1933, etc.) that enable process, judgments and awards in one contracting state to be enforced in another. Then there is the possibility that the breach of contract would be the causal action basis for bringing a claim in your home country. If it is a route you are considering, then it would seem to warrant specialized professional advice well beyond that you are likely to find on an internet bulletin board.
Some countries regard this type of debt as a criminal matter rather than simply a civil one. This invites the potential problems that might be encountered in travelling to other countries that might share co-operation treaties or agreements that could affect you adversely.
Dismissing this, there is then the problem likely to be encountered should you ever need to provide a reference from the aggrieved ex-employer.
Then there are secondary issues that people rarely consider. For example if you are ever arrested anywhere (even if it is only for 10 minutes and you are subsequently released,) you will encounter problems with visa rules for entering certain countries (for example the USA.)
As I said at the start, wouldn't the easiest thing be to simply settle the contract, or negotiate a settlement of the contract?
