Leaving before your bond is up
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,093
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You may think and say what you like X-centric but you are in a minority within the industry. People who work their bonds, pay their bonds or come to agreement with management move ahead and do the industry no harm, people with no integrity who do a 'runner' without giving a reasonable return of service are the root cause of bonding in the first place. If comments on the thread in R & N concerning the part time work of a certain lady pilot are true then BA do expect a given period of employment from new employees they have trained but I'm uncertain what the financial arrangements amount to. I don't think you will find that I have done too much harm to the industry in the last ten years either.
Hobbit - sorry to hear that, you are, of course, an unsecured creditor, the banks always get in first
Previously worked for two majors that went TU around me so know the feeling but running away from a bond is a deliberate act of contract breaking, going into liquidation usually isn't.
Hobbit - sorry to hear that, you are, of course, an unsecured creditor, the banks always get in first
Previously worked for two majors that went TU around me so know the feeling but running away from a bond is a deliberate act of contract breaking, going into liquidation usually isn't.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Somewhere in Europe
Age: 53
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Parabellum you are right on the money!
If everyone took the selfish attitude of previous postings then the industry would collapse or people like Ryanair would prevail whereby you must pay for your rating, but the management can sack you if you fall out of favour with them - I am sure nobody wants to feel this vulnerable!!
A contract is a contract. By breaking it, you will not only make life difficult for yourself later, but stuff it up for any new people joining your present company.
If everyone took the selfish attitude of previous postings then the industry would collapse or people like Ryanair would prevail whereby you must pay for your rating, but the management can sack you if you fall out of favour with them - I am sure nobody wants to feel this vulnerable!!
A contract is a contract. By breaking it, you will not only make life difficult for yourself later, but stuff it up for any new people joining your present company.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Must be management clones
Why should pilots have to pay for training that the Company also requires? They need us in the front. The pay and conditions have declined and everything is in the management favour. With do gooders around no wonder we are on the way down. Things started good for me with Dan Air then went downhill. The only decent Companies have been some small ones with an interest in thier pilots and not only the bottom line. One 'big' Company employed straight onto a big jet without bond - they very rarely lost pilots because they treated them well. The chance come to win back some off the Terms and Conditions that have been lost.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,093
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No Joke possibly you are on the wrong thread? We are not debating paying for your own training, we are talking about Training Bonds.
Just so long as you complete the return of service the company require after being cleared to the line there is nothing to pay.
If a company require you to pay for your own training over a period of time by deduction of salary then that is not what is widely known as a Training Bond, the very word 'bond' implies a promised amount if there is a default.
Getting tired of saying it
but those of you that don't like the idea of a training bond and advocate doing a 'runner' are the very reason we now have training bonds.
For anyone thinking of jumping ship here is a scenario I have seen played out. Half way through the bonded period new pilot jumps ship, not a word to anyone. Ops notify HR who pass it on to the legal department, either in-house or out, (in-house in the case I describe). Jumper is brought to court, complains bitterly about the inhumanity of bonding, how over priced it was, how 'unfair', etc. etc. etc. Jumper is asked, "Is this your signature on this agreement?", Jumper, "er....yes". Short lecture on Jumpers lack of knowledge of contract law and case found in favour of the company with all costs. Jumper now not only has to pay his bond off but also an equal or greater amount in costs, is that anyones idea of a victory for the Jumper? Didn't think so, doing a runner is professional and financial suicide.
Just so long as you complete the return of service the company require after being cleared to the line there is nothing to pay.
If a company require you to pay for your own training over a period of time by deduction of salary then that is not what is widely known as a Training Bond, the very word 'bond' implies a promised amount if there is a default.
Getting tired of saying it
but those of you that don't like the idea of a training bond and advocate doing a 'runner' are the very reason we now have training bonds.For anyone thinking of jumping ship here is a scenario I have seen played out. Half way through the bonded period new pilot jumps ship, not a word to anyone. Ops notify HR who pass it on to the legal department, either in-house or out, (in-house in the case I describe). Jumper is brought to court, complains bitterly about the inhumanity of bonding, how over priced it was, how 'unfair', etc. etc. etc. Jumper is asked, "Is this your signature on this agreement?", Jumper, "er....yes". Short lecture on Jumpers lack of knowledge of contract law and case found in favour of the company with all costs. Jumper now not only has to pay his bond off but also an equal or greater amount in costs, is that anyones idea of a victory for the Jumper? Didn't think so, doing a runner is professional and financial suicide.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: tahiti
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very dodgy ground all of this bond business. I would seek professional legal advice in this matter, there are many who say that bonding is illegal just as slavery and serfitude are. Then we have contract law which is in many cases geared up for the big players and not for us minnows. The cost of chasing someone for the bond is expensive and time consuming. As for you being liable for court costs etc well you have to be able to pay and they will know!
This is a subject dear to my heart as I may need the advice myself but I intend discussing matters with my HR dept and come to some kind of personal arrangement. I like the company I work for, I just hate the job and IMHO the front seats of an airline is not the place for someone who doesnt want to be there.
Very best of luck but be very carefull - I will be.
This is a subject dear to my heart as I may need the advice myself but I intend discussing matters with my HR dept and come to some kind of personal arrangement. I like the company I work for, I just hate the job and IMHO the front seats of an airline is not the place for someone who doesnt want to be there.
Very best of luck but be very carefull - I will be.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right thread
Again I repeat I understand the legal aspects, but we are virtually forced by management to sign the bond or you don't get a job. It all part of the same package I am trying to reveal. We need to get back control of our Profession from the bean counters and the pen pushed - now is one of the best times ever. All we need now is a decent Union. Now ParaB that IS a different (and very old) thread.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: [email protected]
Age: 51
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bonding
Wholeheartedly agree.......What about if a company insists on an individual signing a bond before job offered then at a later date it is discovered,the figure the pilot signed for turned out to be made up of fictional guesswork and twice what it cost for the company to actually train you ( verified by the trto).Individuals signed their training agreements in good faith in the assumption that what they were signing was indeed the actual cost of training. This same little outfit are now attepting to bond individuals for recurrent training and have been proven to be some of the ''sharpest practising'' individuals in the business.
B.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have read all the posts with a great deal of interest so thank you all for taking the time to reply, it seems that it’s a point many have had to think about.
Perhaps I didn’t make it clear in my initial post that I had no intention of leaving my company without paying off the remaining bond. I signed on the line and got the break, rating and training in return for x number of years commitment. If I am to break that by leaving early then it is only right that I fulfill my part of the bargain and repay what’s left.
I believe that a bond for your type rating is perfectly reasonable. Why should an airline spend a small fortune training you on type to have you leave in short order taking the rating with you? My company never asked me for a penny up front, I don’t have anything taken from my wages and when the times up, its up, I can leave when I want and won’t have anything to pay.
This is, or rather was a moral dilemma on my part. I hope the initial post didn’t come across as one of the far too common type of posting from some people who don’t seem to want to work for a living, or a venting of some injustice, it wasn’t. More it’s a realisation that I could earn a lot more money with another airline.
I think, as I suspected I might, have answered my own question, with your help of course. I do really love my job, I am the cat with the cream in that aircraft and I owe it to the people who gave me my break, and to myself to stay, learn all I can and when I have fulfilled my part of the bargain, and only then, should I consider moving on.
So that’s what I’m going to do.
Thanks again.
asecretidentity
Perhaps I didn’t make it clear in my initial post that I had no intention of leaving my company without paying off the remaining bond. I signed on the line and got the break, rating and training in return for x number of years commitment. If I am to break that by leaving early then it is only right that I fulfill my part of the bargain and repay what’s left.
I believe that a bond for your type rating is perfectly reasonable. Why should an airline spend a small fortune training you on type to have you leave in short order taking the rating with you? My company never asked me for a penny up front, I don’t have anything taken from my wages and when the times up, its up, I can leave when I want and won’t have anything to pay.
This is, or rather was a moral dilemma on my part. I hope the initial post didn’t come across as one of the far too common type of posting from some people who don’t seem to want to work for a living, or a venting of some injustice, it wasn’t. More it’s a realisation that I could earn a lot more money with another airline.
I think, as I suspected I might, have answered my own question, with your help of course. I do really love my job, I am the cat with the cream in that aircraft and I owe it to the people who gave me my break, and to myself to stay, learn all I can and when I have fulfilled my part of the bargain, and only then, should I consider moving on.
So that’s what I’m going to do.
Thanks again.
asecretidentity
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: venus
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bilderberger
A contract is a contract and pilots are not forced to sign, although, as No Joke intimates, no bond; no job. However distateful that may be to him, companies are not obliged to offer him a position just because he wants one and if the bond situation is quite untenable, then he should look elsewhere. The company's sandpit; the company's rules.
The determination of the the cost of the training is not up to the pilot or an independent TRTO but, if it is reckoned to be too much, the employing company would have to justify the amount and, if it is an innaccurate figure as you suggest, would probably be found to have been unreasonable and would therefore lose any action. Responsible employers already incorporate a breakdown of training costs into the contract and if they don't or won't, avoid them.
Congratulations asecretidentity on maintaining your integrity.
A contract is a contract and pilots are not forced to sign, although, as No Joke intimates, no bond; no job. However distateful that may be to him, companies are not obliged to offer him a position just because he wants one and if the bond situation is quite untenable, then he should look elsewhere. The company's sandpit; the company's rules.
The determination of the the cost of the training is not up to the pilot or an independent TRTO but, if it is reckoned to be too much, the employing company would have to justify the amount and, if it is an innaccurate figure as you suggest, would probably be found to have been unreasonable and would therefore lose any action. Responsible employers already incorporate a breakdown of training costs into the contract and if they don't or won't, avoid them.
Congratulations asecretidentity on maintaining your integrity.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: all over
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I conduct interviews (as part of a team of local VPs and expats) for a big Asian carrier and I can tell you anyone who even hints that they'd "skip" another carrier in any way (from a bond, or 3 months notice etc) is dead meat. The world is a very small place and sins follow you inevitably and inexorably.
And just because some airlines shaft some people........we're professionals.
And just because some airlines shaft some people........we're professionals.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Out of the pollution.
Posts: 673
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't give them a penny.
If the situation was reversed (as it was in my case some time ago) the minute the company thinks they don't need you they will lay off.
There is zero loyalty in avation with employers.
Stick with your buddies, help each other as best you can - keep that loyalty. If the airline could fly the planes without pilots, believe me they would.
If the situation was reversed (as it was in my case some time ago) the minute the company thinks they don't need you they will lay off.
There is zero loyalty in avation with employers.
Stick with your buddies, help each other as best you can - keep that loyalty. If the airline could fly the planes without pilots, believe me they would.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scared Management
019360 you are my hero. There are people like you that are dreading what is about to happen. Pilot Power. Boys the simple fact is that we should be paid and respected for our position. I joined an Airline recently after earning my type rating, to find that new joiners, non-type rated are bonded for $50,000. As I joined with a type rating (free to the Company but not to me - remember 019360) I should be paid $50,000 over the same bond period. I worked for my rating, why should the Companies get THAT for free? 12,500 total time - 6,000 hrs jet Command - bugger all really.
Bonds are an obscenity, white collar enslavement and should be illegal.
How many other professions have you sign to pay, under duress, for necessary training ?
Unfortunately, however they can come back to haunt you. a necessary evil for some of us.
How many other professions have you sign to pay, under duress, for necessary training ?
Unfortunately, however they can come back to haunt you. a necessary evil for some of us.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Inside the roster matrix
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You idiots!!!
Not paying back the bond is just why the airlines are changing their strategy and making pilots front their bond or pay for a TR. I was lucky enough to not get trapped like that, but many are. The more you mess them about, the more it will come back and bite you later on.
Not paying back the bond is just why the airlines are changing their strategy and making pilots front their bond or pay for a TR. I was lucky enough to not get trapped like that, but many are. The more you mess them about, the more it will come back and bite you later on.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mate, what ever you do, dont burn the bridge, take the other posters' advice and pay the bond if you do leave early, and make sure if you do leave you give your current employer plenty of time to train a replacement, at least then you cant be accused of breaking your contract, or of having no integrity.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And to think that aviators were once considered elite, and professionals and good people with integrity. I am personally a "do gooder" in the industry and times have changed and nowdays pilots are often numbers within companies. I have made it more from my attitude to complete the job as contracted, or if unable have left, but with an agreement with the company leaving on a good faith.This has come back too me at a later job where the person who knew of my leaving with agreeements with the previous company was working at a new comapny at which i later applied. I got the job more on the fact I would try to complete my contract or at least be willing to compromise. Integrity got me my position as well as previous training.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Switzerland
Age: 55
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bonds are negotiable...
Friend of mine just left a Luxemburg-based cargo outfit for another job, still owing them over 20'000 Euros on his 747 bond.
He sat down at the table with them on his exit interview, and candidly told them that he did not have the money, and that some sort of installment plan would have to be figured out whereby he could repay them over time...
In the end, they agreed to let him go for an immediate payment of 10'000 Euros! This not because they are kind-hearted people, but because their legal department probably told them the success rate they had with people moving away, and sustaining their payments over time... not good!
What's more, his new employer, happy to have him, paid him a 10'000 Euro "signing bonus" for joining, so in the end he got away scot-free, whilst maintaining his honesty and not burning any bridges..
Now, not everybody is gonna get that lucky, admittedly.. but the point i'm making is that talking to your present, past and future employer could go a long way in solving an immediate problem...
He sat down at the table with them on his exit interview, and candidly told them that he did not have the money, and that some sort of installment plan would have to be figured out whereby he could repay them over time...
In the end, they agreed to let him go for an immediate payment of 10'000 Euros! This not because they are kind-hearted people, but because their legal department probably told them the success rate they had with people moving away, and sustaining their payments over time... not good!
What's more, his new employer, happy to have him, paid him a 10'000 Euro "signing bonus" for joining, so in the end he got away scot-free, whilst maintaining his honesty and not burning any bridges..
Now, not everybody is gonna get that lucky, admittedly.. but the point i'm making is that talking to your present, past and future employer could go a long way in solving an immediate problem...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: venus
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TEN DOLLAR
The small turboprop operator should be named and shamed. Bonding for promotion is not negotiable in my view and perhaps you should have taken them to the door of the county court where they would probably have capitulated. It would have cost you virtually nothing.
The bond of £41,000 is probably not sustainable and therefore not enforceable. Anyone presented with this sort of thing should ask for the breakdown of this figure and if it is, as seems likely, unjustifiable, not sign. The problem is that once the threat of court action is made, people get worried and that is understandable. Unfortunately, it allows the perpetrators of this sort of thing get away with it and companies with a proper perspective on reasonable bonds get tarred with the same brush.
Will you name the operator or, at least name the aircraft type so that we can draw our own conclusions and let it be a warning for others?
The small turboprop operator should be named and shamed. Bonding for promotion is not negotiable in my view and perhaps you should have taken them to the door of the county court where they would probably have capitulated. It would have cost you virtually nothing.
The bond of £41,000 is probably not sustainable and therefore not enforceable. Anyone presented with this sort of thing should ask for the breakdown of this figure and if it is, as seems likely, unjustifiable, not sign. The problem is that once the threat of court action is made, people get worried and that is understandable. Unfortunately, it allows the perpetrators of this sort of thing get away with it and companies with a proper perspective on reasonable bonds get tarred with the same brush.
Will you name the operator or, at least name the aircraft type so that we can draw our own conclusions and let it be a warning for others?