Leaving before your bond is up
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Legal or not there still needs to be a precedence set in the courts so until it happens, ie a uk airline takes a pilot to court and wins then no precedence has been set. (maybe it has) i am not a lawyer or have that much knowledge about contract law but i do know about precedence. If i was an airline recruiter and needed pilots and could get one for little or no training cost then i would not give a stuff whether he was bonded by his previous company or not. do not forget that pilots are assests just like spare tyres or aircraft or toilet handles or paper cups, get them as cheap as possible cos business is business. i am bonded and am leaving, i will continue to pay my bond for many years since i did agree to pay it back, what was not agreed was the rate of repayment.
love this topic and want some really good meat on the subject.
happy new year to you all - safe flying.
love this topic and want some really good meat on the subject.
happy new year to you all - safe flying.
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Bonds?
Prostitution.
Prostitution.
I wonder how you regard SSTR's then.However, bond in my case is decreasing and my contract has no "fine prints" concerning reduced salary. I will be bonded for recurrent training, that's true and not fair at all. Still, I was hired on minimal experience and in a respected outfit with a promising future ahead since company looks inside when is time to fill more prestigious seats.
Meanwhile, as everyone of us I look around and keep eyes&ears wide open because this is a strange industry. I have heard the rumor of the 3-yrs-rule from a friend of mine and I am just looking for more infos on this matter, so post like Zurg's one help (although I don't want to get involved with BALPA...yet), other comments...well, we all agree!
Thanks for any support
DK
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Winkle , you may be right about any UK airline having not yet taken someone to court , but Cathay and Singapore have done it so there are precedents.
However , you have hit the nail on the head concerning repayments. Paying back £10 a month demonstrates your intention to clear your 'debt' and no court is going to waste its time in this case.
However , you have hit the nail on the head concerning repayments. Paying back £10 a month demonstrates your intention to clear your 'debt' and no court is going to waste its time in this case.
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you may well be right that cathay have taken to court but i didnt realise they bonded. there are european countries where the maximum bonding period is one year (by law). so where do we stand in the united states of europe! as for precedence it can only apply where the law of the land applies and in our case in the uk it can also include european law.
a lot of companies have gone through name changes and there are a lot of companies merging (TC) etc my "new" company name bears no resembelence to the name on my contract, i wonder how that works. i also re-signed a contract and that had no mention of bonds does it supercede the old contract. food for thought.
a lot of companies have gone through name changes and there are a lot of companies merging (TC) etc my "new" company name bears no resembelence to the name on my contract, i wonder how that works. i also re-signed a contract and that had no mention of bonds does it supercede the old contract. food for thought.
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Hi Folks,
coming to this thread late so apols if this has already been said (not going through 4 pages to check).
Bonds are illegal. (long pause for effect)
If you are an EU citizen and working in the EU, it is illegal to restrict anyone's ability to move throughout the EU full stop. Bosman sorted it for the soccer (hooligan) employees and all someone needs to do for the aviation (non hooligan) employees is to bring a test case to the european court. Suggest BALPA or other such body do so on behalf of crew.
Just because all employers in aviation have a bond system dosent mean that it is legal. I have personnally been bonded and left my employer without paying it back. They swore that they would persue me to the ends of the earth for the outstanding debt and vowed that I would never work in the industry again. That was three years ago and I am still working - not a penny paid back and not a peep from the said employer!! All thanks to my clever brother who knows the law.
Bonds are illegal - dont pay
happy new year to all
(up the dubs - 2008 Allireland champs)
coming to this thread late so apols if this has already been said (not going through 4 pages to check).
Bonds are illegal. (long pause for effect)
If you are an EU citizen and working in the EU, it is illegal to restrict anyone's ability to move throughout the EU full stop. Bosman sorted it for the soccer (hooligan) employees and all someone needs to do for the aviation (non hooligan) employees is to bring a test case to the european court. Suggest BALPA or other such body do so on behalf of crew.
Just because all employers in aviation have a bond system dosent mean that it is legal. I have personnally been bonded and left my employer without paying it back. They swore that they would persue me to the ends of the earth for the outstanding debt and vowed that I would never work in the industry again. That was three years ago and I am still working - not a penny paid back and not a peep from the said employer!! All thanks to my clever brother who knows the law.
Bonds are illegal - dont pay
happy new year to all
(up the dubs - 2008 Allireland champs)
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I guess it comes down to the previously mentioned precedence and case law. At the moment there is none in the UK, so bonds are neither legal nor illegal until ruled on one way or the other.
Advice I received is as long as the bond is "reasonable" (financially-for the training being done), decreasing over time, and for a fixed period (upto 5 years) you should pay the outstanding sum back if you leave early.
Bring on that brave person prepared to make case law!!!!!
Advice I received is as long as the bond is "reasonable" (financially-for the training being done), decreasing over time, and for a fixed period (upto 5 years) you should pay the outstanding sum back if you leave early.
Bring on that brave person prepared to make case law!!!!!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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dubfan - You are not in the clear and never will be until you pay up. Friend of mine who 'jumped ship' got nailed some ten years down the line, pay up or domestic flights only etc.
A bond is a contract and if you sign it you have entered into a contract, contracts are legal. A bond doesn't restrict your movement anyway, pay up and you are free to go, otherwise honour the contract you agreed to, (and thereby restricted your own movement). I'm not a lawyer or even close but that is the opinion of a friend who is.
A bond is a contract and if you sign it you have entered into a contract, contracts are legal. A bond doesn't restrict your movement anyway, pay up and you are free to go, otherwise honour the contract you agreed to, (and thereby restricted your own movement). I'm not a lawyer or even close but that is the opinion of a friend who is.
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It really is time this was sorted once and for all.
The only body in a position to do so is BALPA: I have read their missive on the situation and it clouds the issue even further. I shudder to think how much collectively has been poored into their bottomless coffers, and for what ?
The only body in a position to do so is BALPA: I have read their missive on the situation and it clouds the issue even further. I shudder to think how much collectively has been poored into their bottomless coffers, and for what ?
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The only body in a position to do so is BALPA: I have read their missive on the situation and it clouds the issue even further.
I agree that a contract is a contract and I should be honoured in all its commas. However if such a document exists I hardly believe someone would publish it knowing they are doing something "illegal"
Stand-by for further clearence...
DK
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Interesting business this bond issue. I was bonded by a company in the US many years ago and left due to badly maintained aircraft. They took me to court and won a judgement, but in the state I was working in it was illegal to bond and the judge ordered I did not have to pay due to that fact.
I thought I was clear of this debt but found out later when applying for a mortgage that the company had the judgement placed on my credit history and it remained there for 7 years!.
So really I did get away with not paying but I did end up paying for 7 years when it came to applying for any type of credit.
I thought I was clear of this debt but found out later when applying for a mortgage that the company had the judgement placed on my credit history and it remained there for 7 years!.
So really I did get away with not paying but I did end up paying for 7 years when it came to applying for any type of credit.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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winkle - I think you may have your work cut out in your efforts to determine what is and is not a legal contract.
Agreeing with someone who comes to you unqualified for the position on offer that you will teach, train and qualify them for that position and in addition the employer will agree to employ them for a minimum period of return of service but, should the employee choose to leave their employment before they have completed that return of service period, then they will compensate their employer financially for the employer's loss, doesn't sound either illegal or unfair to me. Can you quote me a bond that states that the bond is conditional on the employer/employee each honouring the original contract of employment, (not 'Bond'), and in the event of a perceived lapse the bond is void? Bonds are usually separate documents to the Contract of Employment.
(The term 'Bond' should not to be confused with actually paying hard cash up front for your own training in order to get a job, that is not a bond as is widely known in the aviation industry for the last thirty to forty years).
Please excuse punctuation, not my strong point.
Agreeing with someone who comes to you unqualified for the position on offer that you will teach, train and qualify them for that position and in addition the employer will agree to employ them for a minimum period of return of service but, should the employee choose to leave their employment before they have completed that return of service period, then they will compensate their employer financially for the employer's loss, doesn't sound either illegal or unfair to me. Can you quote me a bond that states that the bond is conditional on the employer/employee each honouring the original contract of employment, (not 'Bond'), and in the event of a perceived lapse the bond is void? Bonds are usually separate documents to the Contract of Employment.
(The term 'Bond' should not to be confused with actually paying hard cash up front for your own training in order to get a job, that is not a bond as is widely known in the aviation industry for the last thirty to forty years).
Please excuse punctuation, not my strong point.
Last edited by parabellum; 3rd Jan 2008 at 08:38.
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What is the most unfair thing about bonds is the way the Taxman treats them. I had a 5 year bond which, when I worked for the company was half paid by me as a salary reduction (ie tax free) and half paid for by the company, ie a reducing the amount owed over a term of 5 years (again tax free)
When I left the company I was asked to pay back what was outstanding from my and the companies contribution, but I have to pay it back with my salary which I have already paid tax on, and the taxman says that it is considered a loan to me by the company!
Now that is unfair, and what did Balpa do when I asked them for help, yes you guessed it,
all!
When I left the company I was asked to pay back what was outstanding from my and the companies contribution, but I have to pay it back with my salary which I have already paid tax on, and the taxman says that it is considered a loan to me by the company!
Now that is unfair, and what did Balpa do when I asked them for help, yes you guessed it,
all!
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you are right parabellum it is a mine field, and it varies from state to state and country to country. here in the uk we also have to deal with european law. the best way forward is if you are planning to leave early is to talk to your management and try and come to some kind of deal. they may not of course play ball but if they are proving unreasonable then that may well be a mark of the company and highlights why they probably had to bond in the first place! if you offer to pay back the bond then there is nothing they can do about it. (in the uk) what might not be covered in the contract is the rate at which it must be paid back, hence the £10 a month option which i believe is called - intent.
great thread, i hope the law can be sorted one way or another. (in the uk)
great thread, i hope the law can be sorted one way or another. (in the uk)
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Bond Paradox Can you advise me
Hi to you all!!
I recently received the contract and the bond for the company i will be working for.
In the bond it states that if I, the pilot OR the company terminates the relationship before expiration of the period specified.The trainee shall reimburse the training costs??????
.
Isn't that a paradox????
OK i understand that if i leave i have to pay back, but why i must pay back also in the event that the fire me? I keep my side of the deal why should i pay for their decision?
PLEASE advise me what to do.I haven't signed the bond yet because i think it's crazy
.
Any help will be appreciated as this is the first bond i will be signing.
I recently received the contract and the bond for the company i will be working for.
In the bond it states that if I, the pilot OR the company terminates the relationship before expiration of the period specified.The trainee shall reimburse the training costs??????
.Isn't that a paradox????
OK i understand that if i leave i have to pay back, but why i must pay back also in the event that the fire me? I keep my side of the deal why should i pay for their decision?
PLEASE advise me what to do.I haven't signed the bond yet because i think it's crazy
.Any help will be appreciated as this is the first bond i will be signing.
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It is amazing they are adopting such a high handed approach in the present job climate. You can bet your bottom dollar they are desperate to get your bum on their seat...
Don't be emotive about this but definitely DON'T sign it - instead write to them highlighting the problem area. Keep your argument polite but be assertive! Tell them you will honour any reasonable contract but that you cannot accept financial liability for events outside your own control.
Some of you young guys and gals probably don't realise this yet but the tables are slowly turning in the aviation industry. You don't need to be treated like this any longer - use your integrity and brains to shame the airlines into giving you a sensible and reasonable job offer in the first place.
Don't be emotive about this but definitely DON'T sign it - instead write to them highlighting the problem area. Keep your argument polite but be assertive! Tell them you will honour any reasonable contract but that you cannot accept financial liability for events outside your own control.
Some of you young guys and gals probably don't realise this yet but the tables are slowly turning in the aviation industry. You don't need to be treated like this any longer - use your integrity and brains to shame the airlines into giving you a sensible and reasonable job offer in the first place.
niknak
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Maracaibo
As recommended, get them to review the "or the Company terminates the contract" to reread "or the Company terminates the contract for breach of contract, which would lead to dismissal, under the published Company disciplinary procedures".
That's really what they're driving at, it's just that it's very often poorly worded in many contracts.
As recommended, get them to review the "or the Company terminates the contract" to reread "or the Company terminates the contract for breach of contract, which would lead to dismissal, under the published Company disciplinary procedures".
That's really what they're driving at, it's just that it's very often poorly worded in many contracts.
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hi,
if it is a devil company:
not the first time I hear of such practices, and I bet they will fire you 1 month before the contract expires and you will get calls from their attorney asking you how you are going to pay them back.
bonding is ILLEGAL in europe, and I don't think they have something to win in this mindgame.
if it's a good company, ask them to review the contract.If they say no, it is a devil company.
you can not sue an employee because he has been fired for no good reason.Just get a good juridic protection.
if it is a devil company:
not the first time I hear of such practices, and I bet they will fire you 1 month before the contract expires and you will get calls from their attorney asking you how you are going to pay them back.
bonding is ILLEGAL in europe, and I don't think they have something to win in this mindgame.
if it's a good company, ask them to review the contract.If they say no, it is a devil company.
you can not sue an employee because he has been fired for no good reason.Just get a good juridic protection.