Captain Correlli

Well I'm glad I'm not part of it. I do most sincerely hope that it all works out for all concerned, who are staying for whatever reason. I hope the more inflamed posts die out, I doubt they serve much purpose really, and I also doubt whether those in management at whom the insults are aimed actually change their views, if anything I suppose all we achieve is hardening their opinions and increasing their dislike and distrust of the pilot community generally. However they really don't show much leadership do they?

I predict that Cheese will not last long before being exposed for what he is, and also that the remaining Sliced Bacon management will not be retained in post after their fleets are disposed of. With regard to BACON RASHER Mk 3, up in EDI, again, it has my most profound best wishes for success. I'm not sure right now who has ended up running it, but at the end of the day if sufficient investment is provided from Waterworld, it will flourish and be profitable - it all depends on what the BA accountants want to show. To my mind, the big question is what Willie's REAL strategy is; is he just keeping the slots warm, or does he intend it to have a genuine role. If the latter, then it will need to become more than an 8 or 10 aircraft operation to be equitable. The trouble I would have would be believing him and his minions after the years of lies, misdirection, and disingenuous hypocrisy which have been the hallmark of BA ever since they became involved with us. At the end of the day, you all have to make your decision and then hope you're right, it's no good projecting your worry, negative thoughts and concerns onto Prune or anywhere else as a means of sounding off - it just will not achieve anything except further polarisation of the workforce, which in turn will enable the Jim and Willie show to divide and rule!

Good luck!

Grand yahoo

The starting runners of BA Citiflyers were David Evans as CEO to be replaced by Peter Simpson ( Ex GM Finance - Bacon). P Hutchings as flight Ops to be replaced by C Phelan, Rod Wicox GM Grd Ops( ex Head of Cabin Services - Bacon), P Gruppo - Finance, IM HR & Admin ( Ex procurement BACON) and,
C McNaly - Chief Engineer ex BACON Eng)

So with lots of experience at the sharp end of Regional Aviation will these runners be there at the off?

How BACON is coping without them is anyones guess.

.....

Pizzaro

I'll just glad to be away from BA.

Regards P.

Tandemrotor

On BACF in EDI, and "keeping the slots warm" situation. If BA announce orders for A318, then the writing will be on the wall!

Otherwise it's "Happy Days!"

NickBarnes

i'll second that post Stepclimb, i totally agree

4468

Why do you think that is?

remoak

Well if you are going to quote directly from the "flybereallyisok.com" website, at least change the words around a bit and avoid accountant-babble!

What you don't see, is that margins are incredibly thin, and yield management is everything (as flybe only recently realised, it seems; whilst Easyjet were managing their yield on a minute-by-minute basis, flybe were doing it on a daily basis up until a few years ago). It doesn't take much to go from triumph to disaster.

However flybe have adapted very well to the LCC model on the commercial side. Ops and Crewing are apparently still disaster areas, but then they always have been - under-resourced for many years now. That side of the business is going to be a major challenge in the days ahead. I imagine the rashers will become well acquainted with the insides of various hotels, despite what they might think about "scheduling agreements". Roster stability is a distant dream, and has been for years.

Have to say that I really rate flybe, though. They have done very well in a very short time. Jim French has demonstrated that an ex- baggage handler can outwit the BA management without trying very hard, and he remains an approachable, honest and genuinely concerned manager (inside the constraints of commercial reality of course). I would go back there in a flash if I needed a new job. There might be one or two muppets in the company, but overall they are a solid bunch. Far better than the BACON management appear to be.

Anyway... back to the pleasant smell of bacon sizzling nicely on the barbie...

biddedout

Well, Remoak, between the Bacon Barbie jokes, for once, you almost make some valid points. I think those of us rashers who are left can see that the Flybe senior “Leadership Team,” commercial and IT are streets ahead of what BA imposed on us and the dross that clung on from within.

It is the operational side of things which are likely to let the new company down. As you say, Easy and Ryan fine tune things on the ramp by the minute and one only has to watch a Baby Formula One turn-round team in action to see how the Loco model should work. Flybe may be slightly better organised at the coalface, but in Baconland, we have suffered for year with having BA handling forced on us. In some of our more remote contracted out destinations, we do still get the full works flexible competent turn-round team meeting us and 15 -20 minute turn-rounds are achievable. In BA land however, we still regularly wait 10 minutes for chocks, 20 minutes for a GPU etc. Parked on a remote stand 1.5 miles from the crewroom? forget the on time departure, you will be lucky if you are only 30 mins late. Need transport? Don’t even think about getting in the “handling agent’s” minibus, that’s reserved for driving the mainline shuttle crews 200m to their machines.

It’s a shame to knock the BA staff, because there are some extremely competent, flexible and proactive despatchers, however, they too are let down and frustrated by the BA machine and the complete lack of management input on the front line unless there is a cappuchino bar within 20 m and its a week day between 10am and 3pm.

Interesting to read the article by le fromage in Flyer where he suggests that if you want a weekend off or need to book a day to plan personal activity, then Flybe is not for you. Strange that, since it doesn’t seem to be a problem in all the other Locos or even mainline companies. I don’t think le fromage has had this problem himself for quite some time. Every weekend guaranteed to be clear, golf on Saturday morning, all weddings and events assured and time off for “personal admin” at any time during the working week.


PS

Give up on the hotel jibes. Most rashers have come from wild west regional backgrounds and have probably clocked up more sleepless hours in flea pits than the combined Flybe workforce. Things are rightly a lot more serious these days, if companies want to get twenty five to thirty hours blocks time out of crews in five days, they do have to face up to having to provide the right support and they have to take their duty of care responsibilities seriously. If there is a noise problem or whatever with a hotel, it is not acceptable. Both the company and the operating Captain would be liable if complaints had been made and they were not acted on, particularly in the czase of a fatigue related incident. Feel free to continue to offer to sleep in the middle of the road, but you will be on your own and not cuddling up with a rasher.

Megaton

How about giving up on the digs at Mainline too. Twenty mins at Heathrow for stand guidance, half an hour for a bus to take you home. And what are you talking about: I've never been driven anywhere in the UK by a agents bus except Man.

biddedout

OK, sorry, badly put, it was meant to be a dig at the fact that under mainline control, there isn't a manager in sight to sort any front line problems out. I am sure you are well aware of this. We did our best to shed some of the dead wood managment wasters, but they just seem to end up back at LHR in promoted positions.

I realise that the bussing thing is a bigt issue for you at mainline too, but it's incredibly frustrating to see BA transport parked outside our crewroom doing nothing with a driver in situ and yet we have to wait thirty minutes for extrnal transport to arrive. The sad thing is that for no good reason yet another flight with a BA flight number departs thirty mintes late.

We have been reporting this sort of nonsense for five years now, but nothing ever gets done about it. I know its the same or worse at LHR, but hey, T5 will be the saviour You have to realise that we are the ones who have been beaten with the make a profit or we will sell or close you for some time now. It's hardly surprising that we vent our frustration.

Fact, we used to have J41's, they were difficult to make money with, but useful for pionering new routes. Before BA bought us BRAL were able to force the going rate out of BA for handling. The day BA bought us, we had to pay the internal BA rate (almost double) and the J41 became instantly unprofitable. It had to go. So from then on, there was little hope, we have been strung along with lies ever since.

remoak

Well, Biddedout, as it happens I was actually cooking up some bacon on the barbie when I wrote that... 25C and a light breeze from the NW where I am...

Anyway - on the subject of HOTAC, you have no idea what you are on about with regard to flybe. There is a process in flybe to ensure suitable hotels are provided, after some real dodgy places were being used about five years ago. When I left, it was a LOT better and there were no crap hotels in use. It may have changed now of course, but I doubt it. Of course the Rougemont in EXT was a bit of an exception...

Some of us spent more time in HOTAC than we spent at home (some of us, considerably more). It is, and has been, a real problem for flybe (rostering, that is).

I just love the way that you BACON guys assume that you will somehow have some mystical ability to specify your own hotels, or rosters, or whatever. You really do believe that your existing Scheduling Agreement is just going to transfer directly to flybe in toto, don't you?

Good luck with that...

biddedout

No, I don't think "we" do. We just expect a reasonable compromise as is the case with any sensible negotiation. I uderstand that Flybe pilots and their representatives have been pressing for significant improvements in sheduling for a year or so. It seems to me that a blend of what you have now and what we have is a sensible way to proceed.
Other Locos seem to be developing sheduling patterns which create stability and the ability to plan a home life around a roster with little no no fuss. If as wew are being led to believe Flybe managent are despeately trying to maintain the ability to "own" its crews 24 hrs a day, then they may be missing the point. Many things may be changed, but endless last minute changes from earlies to lates and lates to earlies is not acceptable in any 21st century airline.

remoak

I think that you misunderstand your position in these "negotiations", any vague power you might have had is disappearing with every resignation. I realise that you have to believe that you have some power over your destiny, but you really don't have much at all.

Don't get me wrong, I think a decent Scheduling Agreement is a wonderful idea, but I also know how little success consecutive CC's have had in getting one. I'm not sure why you think your CC, that has virtually no bargaining position, is going to change things (but good luck to them).

The reason that flybe has never had the roster stability that the other LoCos have had, is partly the mix of aircraft, and partly the destinations they fly to. Oh, and also the crappy rostering software and inexperienced Crewing department. It will have to change, but it will take big bits of money to do it (always an obstacle to change).

biddedout

I don't think it should be about power games. It should be about achieving stability and efficiency. Flybe seems to be missing the point if they see it as a battle to be won. the winners will be the other companies who understand these things. lets hope they get this sorted for the benefit of all.

remoak

I do agree with you.

I can remember repeating over and over again, at various meetings, the mantra about the benefits of a happy, motivated workforce. The management always agreed - in principle - but at the time, we were always in either financial or operational difficulties, and the management simply could not afford to give away ANY flexibility without risking the flying programme... so the crews always ended up being disadvantaged.

I still have a number of email exchanges on various crewing and operational matters, and I can assure you that managers were sympathetic, but hamstrung.

Things changed a lot when JF took over, and I found him to be a very reasonable and pro-active guy. He went out of his way to sort out some of the issues we had. The internal Open Channel forum also had some notable successes (although most crews probably never knew that).

I can also vouch for the fact that on several occasions, the company spent significant amounts of money to alleviate crewing problems. Again, this may not have been apparent to many crews.

I suppose my point is that with most of the flybe managers I knew, the will to do the right thing by the crews was there, but it was difficult to carry through in the environment that they were in (remember, the last few years have seem extraordinary changes in the company). I suspect that the mindset of "yes, but not now" may still be quite entrenched. I can't speak for the new guys who arrived after I left, of course. Still trying to figure out what this Cheese guy is all about.

For that reason, I suspect that the "negotiations" may not go quite the way you hope. Not because flybe see it as a "battle", but for the old reason of maintaining maximum operational flexibility and minimum cost.

BTW, one of the stormier meetings in flybe occurred just after JF took over... and was presented with the monthly HOTAC spend. I understand that the language used was abrupt and to the point!

4468

NEWSFLASH

Hotels cost money, and if you put lots of people in lots of hotels, it will cost lots of money!

I guess that might be a little hard for a baggage handler to get his head round!

Remoak. Flybe sounds great. Why did you leave?

bermudatriangle

just about sums up why these outfits lurch from one crisis to another...appalling management.makes me wonder how they keep going for so long !

remoak

Yeah well it's a lot cheaper than employing the number of crews you would need to eliminate HOTAC, especially when you consider the reduced rate an airline gets HOTAC for.

Of course the airline could have just informed a whole bunch of crews that, with immediate effect, they were based in some place hundreds of miles from home, but they chose not to do that.

There are other issues around changing aircraft types, extremely rapid expansion, and a ton of new routes. Add to this an antiquated crewing system...

The problem is a little more complex that you apparently realise.

I left because, good as flybe might be for a regional carrier, there are other opportunities out there. I would happily go back if I ever needed to, though.

JobsaGoodun

Which are you referring too....BACon or Flybe?
In what way antiquated? Flybe used to use RM which is still being used in a number of airlines, most ironically by BACon itself.
Flybe now use AIMS along with 50+ other airlines, including Easyjet, and more recently BMI.
I'm not sure you would ever class either as antiquated?

remoak

That's correct, but it was an old iteration... version 4? Can't remember. Good to hear they upgraded!