Flyglobespan: Time To Make A Stand
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Flyglobespan: Time To Make A Stand
Dear Fellow Flyglobspan Crew Members:
I am writing this on Pprune so that we can organise collective action against the gross infraction of the rules laid down in CAP 371 by Flyglobespan management. I would also like to highlight their questionable policies with regards to crew welfare and ask the question: which school of airline management does that come from?
As you all know, our senior management, with one exception, come from a shorthaul back ground in airlines that our not exactly well known for their standards. They have no experience running a large and expanding longhaul airline, with the different challenges that presents. It is time they got the message that they are not running an airline with 2 B737's that can be organised on the back of a fag packet.
I am sick of our company's flagrant disregard for our welfare and disrespect for the regulations which our competitors in the airline world must comply with. We must rise against this and work together to get the message accross that things cannot continue the way they are. The shining example of this abuse of the rules is the new scheduled minimum rest Cape Town flight.
Not only that, I would ask the question: How much does it cost to train a new pilot to the airline, whether experienced or not? This cost would include, ground school, simulator time, circuits, sectors etc. Is it really more economical to create a training airline with high staff turnover than to create an airline where the staff feel valued and wish to serve out their careers. Of course it isn't! Otherwise all the large successful airlines would be doing it, however, they have learned that in the long run it just costs more money having unhappy staff.
This of course means that they will struggle to find quality pilots in the future and may find themselves with an aircraft uncrewed on the ground or in the news because of an incident. How economical will that be?
So friends, how shall we make our stand together to fight the "Evil Empire" (sorry couldn't resist that).
First: We are rostered a report time of 1 hour before STD. Let us all report for our North Atlantic and ETOPS flights exactly one hour before departure, and see what happens to the on time performance figures.
Second: We must refuse to work on our days off until such a time as the co-operation and flexibility is a two way street.
Third: We must make sure that we receive our legal in-flight rest in the way in which is laid down in Part A. That does not mean a singular Economy seat in full view of the passengers. That means two curtained off Business class seats or a bunk bed. (An in-flight massage would be nice but not a deal breaker :-)
Fourth: We must insist that we receive our minimum rest in the hotel, not in a baggage hall, minibus, standing outside a terminal.
Fifth: Discretion will become just that, Discretion, and will not be exercised carte blanche as a planning tool for the company.
Sixth: Refuse to share hotel rooms with your colleagues. I like you guys...but NOT that much.
Seventh: Insist on seperate rooms for yourself and the remainder of the crew when coming back from the ridiculous Toronto duty where we operate out and position back.
Eigth: Refuse to do any positioning that involves multi sectors and exceeds 12 hours on the grounds of human rights.
These are my thoughts on how we can withdraw our co-operation until such a time as it is not abused by the company. I would also suggest that we must get the ball rolling with regards to union representation as soon as possible. I have heard that the IPF are second largest next to Balpa and less expensive. Another option is the TGWU. Please let us discuss which is the best option and then move forward, together, to make our voices heard within the company.
I welcome your replies on anything else that we can do to change the airline for the better.
Safe Flying
P.S Please complain loudly to the contract agency.
I am writing this on Pprune so that we can organise collective action against the gross infraction of the rules laid down in CAP 371 by Flyglobespan management. I would also like to highlight their questionable policies with regards to crew welfare and ask the question: which school of airline management does that come from?
As you all know, our senior management, with one exception, come from a shorthaul back ground in airlines that our not exactly well known for their standards. They have no experience running a large and expanding longhaul airline, with the different challenges that presents. It is time they got the message that they are not running an airline with 2 B737's that can be organised on the back of a fag packet.
I am sick of our company's flagrant disregard for our welfare and disrespect for the regulations which our competitors in the airline world must comply with. We must rise against this and work together to get the message accross that things cannot continue the way they are. The shining example of this abuse of the rules is the new scheduled minimum rest Cape Town flight.
Not only that, I would ask the question: How much does it cost to train a new pilot to the airline, whether experienced or not? This cost would include, ground school, simulator time, circuits, sectors etc. Is it really more economical to create a training airline with high staff turnover than to create an airline where the staff feel valued and wish to serve out their careers. Of course it isn't! Otherwise all the large successful airlines would be doing it, however, they have learned that in the long run it just costs more money having unhappy staff.
This of course means that they will struggle to find quality pilots in the future and may find themselves with an aircraft uncrewed on the ground or in the news because of an incident. How economical will that be?
So friends, how shall we make our stand together to fight the "Evil Empire" (sorry couldn't resist that).
First: We are rostered a report time of 1 hour before STD. Let us all report for our North Atlantic and ETOPS flights exactly one hour before departure, and see what happens to the on time performance figures.
Second: We must refuse to work on our days off until such a time as the co-operation and flexibility is a two way street.
Third: We must make sure that we receive our legal in-flight rest in the way in which is laid down in Part A. That does not mean a singular Economy seat in full view of the passengers. That means two curtained off Business class seats or a bunk bed. (An in-flight massage would be nice but not a deal breaker :-)
Fourth: We must insist that we receive our minimum rest in the hotel, not in a baggage hall, minibus, standing outside a terminal.
Fifth: Discretion will become just that, Discretion, and will not be exercised carte blanche as a planning tool for the company.
Sixth: Refuse to share hotel rooms with your colleagues. I like you guys...but NOT that much.
Seventh: Insist on seperate rooms for yourself and the remainder of the crew when coming back from the ridiculous Toronto duty where we operate out and position back.
Eigth: Refuse to do any positioning that involves multi sectors and exceeds 12 hours on the grounds of human rights.
These are my thoughts on how we can withdraw our co-operation until such a time as it is not abused by the company. I would also suggest that we must get the ball rolling with regards to union representation as soon as possible. I have heard that the IPF are second largest next to Balpa and less expensive. Another option is the TGWU. Please let us discuss which is the best option and then move forward, together, to make our voices heard within the company.
I welcome your replies on anything else that we can do to change the airline for the better.
Safe Flying
P.S Please complain loudly to the contract agency.
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Well said Bill, totally agree with you. Let's show them that they can't take the piss like this.
I hear the IPF is good. Don't really want to join BALPA, however what is important is that we all join the same Union. (don't know much about the TGWU)
I vote for IPF....anybody else?
I hear the IPF is good. Don't really want to join BALPA, however what is important is that we all join the same Union. (don't know much about the TGWU)
I vote for IPF....anybody else?
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no discretion
Gentlemen, you are absolutely right, enough is enough.
IPF sounds good to me. In the mean time lets not allow ourselves to be rostered into discretion.
I understand the MAN-CPT has had to tech stop PMI on three occasions recently.....crew continuing on to CPT. This is not good eh? delays delays delays! Any idea which hotel we will be using in PMI?
I understand our fleet manager and chief pilot are operating the first min rest to CPT. Should be interesting to hear their views.
........An opps inspector with his eyes open might help!!
IPF sounds good to me. In the mean time lets not allow ourselves to be rostered into discretion.
I understand the MAN-CPT has had to tech stop PMI on three occasions recently.....crew continuing on to CPT. This is not good eh? delays delays delays! Any idea which hotel we will be using in PMI?
I understand our fleet manager and chief pilot are operating the first min rest to CPT. Should be interesting to hear their views.
........An opps inspector with his eyes open might help!!
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At last someone comes up with a plan of attack. We all have to stick together and get the job done. I think the airline could be a great place to work with a few tweaks. The crew are experienced and great fun and the routes are interesting.
I'm a member of the IPF and can recommend them. They are proactive and only cost £22 a month which is a lot cheaper than BALPA. (I know what the arguments are for BALPA but I have a feeling more people will be willing to join the IPF than BALPA purely down to the cost.) Representation is really the key at this stage, not the legal cover.
I am going to do what Bongo Bill suggests and the company will soon see exactly how much they will save treating their crews like this.
Flyglobespan you have pushed us too far!
Time for a cigar and a Mojito.
I'm a member of the IPF and can recommend them. They are proactive and only cost £22 a month which is a lot cheaper than BALPA. (I know what the arguments are for BALPA but I have a feeling more people will be willing to join the IPF than BALPA purely down to the cost.) Representation is really the key at this stage, not the legal cover.
I am going to do what Bongo Bill suggests and the company will soon see exactly how much they will save treating their crews like this.
Flyglobespan you have pushed us too far!
Time for a cigar and a Mojito.
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Me again,
Maybe I'm seeing things but I've just downloaded CAP 371 from the CAA website and I quote with reference to absolute limits of flying hours,
para 23.6
The Maximum number of Flying Hours which a pilot may be permitted to undertake are,
Single Day Table D
Any 3 consecutive days 18 Hours
Any 7 consecutive days 30 Hours
Any 3 consecutive 28 day periods 240 Hours
.....................If this is so, then how can we be rostered for over 20 hours flying within 3 consecutive days re MAN CPT??
Or go on, am I missing something?
Maybe I'm seeing things but I've just downloaded CAP 371 from the CAA website and I quote with reference to absolute limits of flying hours,
para 23.6
The Maximum number of Flying Hours which a pilot may be permitted to undertake are,
Single Day Table D
Any 3 consecutive days 18 Hours
Any 7 consecutive days 30 Hours
Any 3 consecutive 28 day periods 240 Hours
.....................If this is so, then how can we be rostered for over 20 hours flying within 3 consecutive days re MAN CPT??
Or go on, am I missing something?
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Sorry to interject on a company specific thread ( I drive the 737 for another low cost operator), however I have a little experience of Globespan and just wanted to wish you the very best of luck.
Secondly, we have just emerged from a period of balloting over industrial action at the company I work for and I have to say that if you are looking for support from BALPA, then don't expect too much. Many of us too are joining the IPA, myself amongst them, however most impressive of all were the TGWU.
I was suspicious that they wouldn't be keen to assist a profession that the public may consider overpaid and elitist, however that did not seem to be the case at all. Naturally they do not have the specialists in aviation law that BALPA have, but they seemed genuinely keen, and certainly able to buy the best legal advice as necessary. As I say, for all their expertise, BALPA were as much use as chocolate ailerons.
Just a thought, and as I say good luck.
Cheers,
MoT
Secondly, we have just emerged from a period of balloting over industrial action at the company I work for and I have to say that if you are looking for support from BALPA, then don't expect too much. Many of us too are joining the IPA, myself amongst them, however most impressive of all were the TGWU.
I was suspicious that they wouldn't be keen to assist a profession that the public may consider overpaid and elitist, however that did not seem to be the case at all. Naturally they do not have the specialists in aviation law that BALPA have, but they seemed genuinely keen, and certainly able to buy the best legal advice as necessary. As I say, for all their expertise, BALPA were as much use as chocolate ailerons.
Just a thought, and as I say good luck.
Cheers,
MoT
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re: IPA/IPF
In fact IPF now includes IPA membership and costs £11 per month no matter your salary with legal cover up to £20k and free legal helpline. For extra cover eg: worldwide incl USA £125k they charge an extra £147pa or £12.25 per mth. So total around £24/mth.
All the best.
All the best.
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Fellow Globespan 767 pilots,
Agree with all that has been said so far.
I think we should CHIRP all incidents of absurd rest arrangements and the blatant disregard for FTL.
Is it not the case that when the PT and FG were delivered from Air New Zealand they had proper rest facilities, which were then removed to make way for an extra Business Class seat. I guess Globespan have shown from the outset that crew rest onboard is not a priority!
A4D.
Agree with all that has been said so far.
I think we should CHIRP all incidents of absurd rest arrangements and the blatant disregard for FTL.
Is it not the case that when the PT and FG were delivered from Air New Zealand they had proper rest facilities, which were then removed to make way for an extra Business Class seat. I guess Globespan have shown from the outset that crew rest onboard is not a priority!
A4D.
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Oh dear,
Dirty washing in public.
Guess the grass wasnt so much greener after all.
Charter is charter ad nauseum
Nasty little short haul managers. Whats a 767 expert on their third job in three years to do? Ho hum.
AAI,AAE,XL,GSM, and god knows who else before.Maybe even JET2 if they fill the tanks of their 757s.All getting it wrong if these transient 76/longhaul experts are to be believed. Who is next for the honour of their wisdom ZOOM?
I refer you to the third line of this post again
Dirty washing in public.
Guess the grass wasnt so much greener after all.
Charter is charter ad nauseumNasty little short haul managers. Whats a 767 expert on their third job in three years to do? Ho hum.
AAI,AAE,XL,GSM, and god knows who else before.Maybe even JET2 if they fill the tanks of their 757s.All getting it wrong if these transient 76/longhaul experts are to be believed. Who is next for the honour of their wisdom ZOOM?
I refer you to the third line of this post again
Last edited by Farty Flaps; 15th Jan 2007 at 22:33.
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This time last year all was fantastic in the GSM camp.....what happened?
Forget the TGWU, forget IPF. Only BALPA has the know how to sort your problems out.
If it's that bad dip into your pockets and spend the money, New members to BALPA get a 50% discount for two years.
TGWU, IPF and BALPA are only as good as it's members and I think you'll have difficulty getting the contractors onboard.
If you're serious BALPA is the only choice (and I was a member of the IPA for many years). Scrimping on saving a few pounds here and there on your representation will show in the results.
My subs to BALPA cost me £62 a month in easyJet and it is worth every penny. However I get the tax back on these subs so it doesn't really cost me £62 a month.....As an FO in easyjet it was about £30 less tax, divide by two for two years and BALPA works out cheaper than the IPF.
Here's hoping you improve things
Forget the TGWU, forget IPF. Only BALPA has the know how to sort your problems out.
If it's that bad dip into your pockets and spend the money, New members to BALPA get a 50% discount for two years.
TGWU, IPF and BALPA are only as good as it's members and I think you'll have difficulty getting the contractors onboard.
If you're serious BALPA is the only choice (and I was a member of the IPA for many years). Scrimping on saving a few pounds here and there on your representation will show in the results.
My subs to BALPA cost me £62 a month in easyJet and it is worth every penny. However I get the tax back on these subs so it doesn't really cost me £62 a month.....As an FO in easyjet it was about £30 less tax, divide by two for two years and BALPA works out cheaper than the IPF.
Here's hoping you improve things
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There is a very experienced ex EZY BALAP CC negotiator in GSM on the 767 i believe .A cracking guy with a real understanding of scheduling in pariticular.
Could he be the man to organise something ?
Could he be the man to organise something ?
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From what I hear Globespan are aware of the disatisfaction and the Fleet Mgr will be discussing the problems with JF and importantly TD to see what they are willing to do.
My mate at Globespan tells me that SS and BM are flying the route today so problems should be highlighted first hand and hands could be untied.
My mate at Globespan tells me that SS and BM are flying the route today so problems should be highlighted first hand and hands could be untied.
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Well said Bongo Bill
We are not just fighting against BAD management we are also fighting against the yes men!!(pilots) to whom go along with all.
When I refuse to comply with illegal rostering etc... crewing simply find a yes man!
We are not just fighting against BAD management we are also fighting against the yes men!!(pilots) to whom go along with all.
When I refuse to comply with illegal rostering etc... crewing simply find a yes man!
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The Next Step
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your various messages of support both public and private. However, so that this does not drift into a generalised moaning session with no practical outcome, let me propose the next course of action.
I have each of the B767 pilots email addresses. I will send each of you an email from myself, using my pprune name, asking for 3 pieces of information.
1. Are you employed or contract.
2. What is your union preference.
3. Do I have permission to forward your email to the union.
I will send to you all the results of the vote for which union to use, as well as posting it on this forum.
I would then ask that once we have everyone's union preference, we stick together and go with the majority vote.
The issue over contract pilots and employees is a moot point. The union representation is decided upon by the percentage of permanent employees that are members. The number of contractors is immaterial. One would then hope that the benefits achieved for the employees, such as a scheduling agreement and choice of hotels, would be enjoyed by the contractors as well.
At this stage I am not sure if we can divide the pilot body into seperate groups of short and longhaul, or by fleet. I would ask the B737 guys reading this to try and co-ordinate some form of action similar to what I propose for their fleet.
So then colleagues, the next you will hear from me is by email. Please spread the word and reply to my email promptly. Then we can show our management that, actually no, they cannot treat us like this.
All the best!
Thank you for your various messages of support both public and private. However, so that this does not drift into a generalised moaning session with no practical outcome, let me propose the next course of action.
I have each of the B767 pilots email addresses. I will send each of you an email from myself, using my pprune name, asking for 3 pieces of information.
1. Are you employed or contract.
2. What is your union preference.
3. Do I have permission to forward your email to the union.
I will send to you all the results of the vote for which union to use, as well as posting it on this forum.
I would then ask that once we have everyone's union preference, we stick together and go with the majority vote.
The issue over contract pilots and employees is a moot point. The union representation is decided upon by the percentage of permanent employees that are members. The number of contractors is immaterial. One would then hope that the benefits achieved for the employees, such as a scheduling agreement and choice of hotels, would be enjoyed by the contractors as well.
At this stage I am not sure if we can divide the pilot body into seperate groups of short and longhaul, or by fleet. I would ask the B737 guys reading this to try and co-ordinate some form of action similar to what I propose for their fleet.
So then colleagues, the next you will hear from me is by email. Please spread the word and reply to my email promptly. Then we can show our management that, actually no, they cannot treat us like this.
All the best!
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Just to add my twopence.
I joined from a reputable operator for the chance of flying longhaul on a fairly modern piece of kit.
What I get is in the words of Catherine Tates OAP character " What a load of ole schit"
When I joined it was prior to the AIndia contract and was good to fair with not alot of work loads of Standbys which suited me as i live close to my base and 4 trips a month albeit 25 hour trips.
We were fed with ideas of BGI Vegas etc and could happen yet.
But Torontos there n back absolute crazy, When I operate a 8 hour flight the least I expected was to get off and overnight with the usual fun along with it. NOT to proceed thru a terminal and check in again in an economy seat to position back to UK. Utter CRAP
Now we have bullets to Capetown to content with.
I want this company to do well but some horrors have been happenng.
Real Time bullying
Constant Fatigue
Dread going to work
Jumped up Supervisors
Flawing of Cap371
Regular Discretion
Chaotic Crewing at times
Mnagement apparent hate of Crew
Insecure People who use Draconian Methods to abuse Cabin Crew
List is endless
Ive been around a while and have noticed how everyone seems to need "approval" from some dip in someother department to assist us.
WE are adults and a hell of alot more proffessional than credited for. You give us a 767 and then dont trust us with treating passengers as they should be treated.
Grow Up GlobespanK if you want staff and want to survive past April.
Think about it..........
I joined from a reputable operator for the chance of flying longhaul on a fairly modern piece of kit.
What I get is in the words of Catherine Tates OAP character " What a load of ole schit"
When I joined it was prior to the AIndia contract and was good to fair with not alot of work loads of Standbys which suited me as i live close to my base and 4 trips a month albeit 25 hour trips.
We were fed with ideas of BGI Vegas etc and could happen yet.
But Torontos there n back absolute crazy, When I operate a 8 hour flight the least I expected was to get off and overnight with the usual fun along with it. NOT to proceed thru a terminal and check in again in an economy seat to position back to UK. Utter CRAP
Now we have bullets to Capetown to content with.
I want this company to do well but some horrors have been happenng.
Real Time bullying
Constant Fatigue
Dread going to work
Jumped up Supervisors
Flawing of Cap371
Regular Discretion
Chaotic Crewing at times
Mnagement apparent hate of Crew
Insecure People who use Draconian Methods to abuse Cabin Crew
List is endless
Ive been around a while and have noticed how everyone seems to need "approval" from some dip in someother department to assist us.
WE are adults and a hell of alot more proffessional than credited for. You give us a 767 and then dont trust us with treating passengers as they should be treated.
Grow Up GlobespanK if you want staff and want to survive past April.
Think about it..........
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Calling All B737 Pilots
Dear Fellow Aviators and Brothers in Arms on the 737 Fleet:
On consultation with persons much wiser than myself; I feel that we all must move forward as one whole pilot body within the company.
With this in mind, can I ask all B737 pilots to send their answers to the questions noted above, with the addition of their fleet, to the email address below.
[email protected]
Once I have received the answers from enough pilots I will publish the results. Please note, I will forward the email that I have sent to the B767 pilots once I receive a complete mailing list for all pilots on the 737 fleet.
For the benefit of everyone; the situation legally is thus:
We must have 10% recognition for the Union to approach the Company to ask if they will recognise the Union voluntarily.
If they decline, then we must push for 50% recognition plus 1. However, we can ballot for a vote with less than 50%, as long as people vote yes to recognition, but this allows for a narrower mandate for the Union to work towards.
We may be able to divide the company into fleets, with regards to recognition, thereby only requiring 50% of the 767 fleet to join the Union. However, I say may , as to date it has not been done before. This is obviously not desirable as our colleagues on the 737 fleet have issues as well.
I will leave you with these thoughts. Thank you to everyone who has emailed me so far.
Safe Flying
On consultation with persons much wiser than myself; I feel that we all must move forward as one whole pilot body within the company.
With this in mind, can I ask all B737 pilots to send their answers to the questions noted above, with the addition of their fleet, to the email address below.
[email protected]
Once I have received the answers from enough pilots I will publish the results. Please note, I will forward the email that I have sent to the B767 pilots once I receive a complete mailing list for all pilots on the 737 fleet.
For the benefit of everyone; the situation legally is thus:
We must have 10% recognition for the Union to approach the Company to ask if they will recognise the Union voluntarily.
If they decline, then we must push for 50% recognition plus 1. However, we can ballot for a vote with less than 50%, as long as people vote yes to recognition, but this allows for a narrower mandate for the Union to work towards.
We may be able to divide the company into fleets, with regards to recognition, thereby only requiring 50% of the 767 fleet to join the Union. However, I say may , as to date it has not been done before. This is obviously not desirable as our colleagues on the 737 fleet have issues as well.
I will leave you with these thoughts. Thank you to everyone who has emailed me so far.
Safe Flying
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Update
Dear Colleagues:
First of all, thank you for all the emails so far. Please keep them coming. We all really need to make the effort on this one occasion to make a difference. This won't work unless we all stick together.
For the pilots on the B737, if you have not received an email from me it is because you were not on my mailing list or your email was refused by Hotmail. However, I would still appreciate if you could take the time and send me an email to the address above with your preference of Union.
Come on guys! Lets show them we mean business!
Bill
First of all, thank you for all the emails so far. Please keep them coming. We all really need to make the effort on this one occasion to make a difference. This won't work unless we all stick together.
For the pilots on the B737, if you have not received an email from me it is because you were not on my mailing list or your email was refused by Hotmail. However, I would still appreciate if you could take the time and send me an email to the address above with your preference of Union.
Come on guys! Lets show them we mean business!
Bill