BA CityFlyer
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Sorry to rain on your parade there dude, but my opinion on Modderator is more or less the same as the sentiments expressed here. A simple examination will confirm that we aren't the same! Irepproachable logic and a dry wit on the one hand... Modderator on the other. Nice try though... 
Join Date: Nov 2000
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...wasting time with BACON....
You would not believe how many stupid decisions I have made over the last ten years - the worst was listening to the wife and deciding I would return to the regions rather than the London area. That one led directly to BRAL, BACON and all its problems, and constantly thinking that surely things can't get much worse...how wrong can you be! Now the optimists are saying we'll definitely end up on the BA seniority list, so all is secure - I just don't beleive it. I should have joined the EZY exodus, but once again, I thought that the RJ operation would be a winner - just goes to show my judgement ain't that good. (I suppose you could make a case that since I've been wrong all the way, I'm consistent, and therefore the future of BACityflier is assured........)
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and the future??
All of us I think, but who could really have predicted the shambles back when BA bought us up? Not many people admit to seeing all this cr@p coming, that's for sure.
The big question now is the NEXT decision, which has to be based on the future of Cityflyer. Seems to be lots of talk that now we're smaller and (ha ha) more profitable, we will eventually be quietly absorbed into mainline. I have difficulty with that one personally, but then if you consider the alternative, is there REALLY a secure future with such a small operation funded from the coat tails of BA? The optimists are talking about babybuses coming in time, but I think that would be against the BACC scheduling agreement, so that won't happen - at least, not for us.That means that if the RJs are replaced, if we are not in big BA, we're stuffed. Any comments from anyone, any thoughts? Problem is that the longer you delay a decision, the more difficult it gets, and you start to think that maybe it'll turn out OK. Problem is I've lost count of the times I've waited for an "announcement" thinking it would be good news, and every single time it's been bad. The luck has got to turn.
The big question now is the NEXT decision, which has to be based on the future of Cityflyer. Seems to be lots of talk that now we're smaller and (ha ha) more profitable, we will eventually be quietly absorbed into mainline. I have difficulty with that one personally, but then if you consider the alternative, is there REALLY a secure future with such a small operation funded from the coat tails of BA? The optimists are talking about babybuses coming in time, but I think that would be against the BACC scheduling agreement, so that won't happen - at least, not for us.That means that if the RJs are replaced, if we are not in big BA, we're stuffed. Any comments from anyone, any thoughts? Problem is that the longer you delay a decision, the more difficult it gets, and you start to think that maybe it'll turn out OK. Problem is I've lost count of the times I've waited for an "announcement" thinking it would be good news, and every single time it's been bad. The luck has got to turn.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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I guess it all boils down to how serious Willy is about LCY,we have come from a situation where LCY was not promoted by BA to a stage where its the new buzz word around Waterworld. I always look at the little things going on that tend to give you a flavour of how they are thinking, for example. I no longer get a paper wageslip i have to access the BA intranet and check my wages from there, i have been with the company in its various forms for a long time and my personal view is that it will get swallowed up at some point by mainline. When BACF was set up i admit i was sceptical about being merged with mainline but as time goes by i am not so sure, assuming that we dont go bust hiring private aircraft and taxis!!!!!
Join Date: Jul 2000
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The decision as to whether the BA operation at LCY will become 'mainline' or not hinges on which aircraft type is selected for the operation going forward.
If it's the A318, then it will become a mainline fleet, and I can't see BA waving goodbye to the current staff, and simply 'installing' it's own. The company will have little choice but to absorb Cityflyer AGAIN, and in exactly the same way as it did some years earlier. The only spanner in the works is, how soon LCY and the A318 can be 'married'!
If however, the choice of new aircraft is the RJ85, with leases running anywhere close to 2012 or beyond, then I'm afraid to say BA will have created a very lucrative 'stand alone' London based airline, with low staff costs. So it will be management bonuses all round, and no chance of mainline access for the current incumbents.
Since the RJ100 lease 'issue' needs to be adressed fairly soon, I don't think there will be too long to wait before the writing is on the wall.
If it's the A318, then it will become a mainline fleet, and I can't see BA waving goodbye to the current staff, and simply 'installing' it's own. The company will have little choice but to absorb Cityflyer AGAIN, and in exactly the same way as it did some years earlier. The only spanner in the works is, how soon LCY and the A318 can be 'married'!
If however, the choice of new aircraft is the RJ85, with leases running anywhere close to 2012 or beyond, then I'm afraid to say BA will have created a very lucrative 'stand alone' London based airline, with low staff costs. So it will be management bonuses all round, and no chance of mainline access for the current incumbents.
Since the RJ100 lease 'issue' needs to be adressed fairly soon, I don't think there will be too long to wait before the writing is on the wall.
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Interesting comment Tandem, thanks.
I suppose one could assume from those two scenarios that my job i safe whichever comes to pass. However....if your first option happens, ie the Babybuses, what would be your take on what would happen to me and my LHS colleagues? I know you don't know for certain, but do you think we would be grandfathered by base, or would we be displaced for mainline chaps who would be (presumably) already rated on such a type?
With your second option, I suppose that one has the attractiveness to BA of staying lo cost (relatively anyway) and retaining more freedom of manouvre and perhaps an attempt to expand those lo cost ethics into LGW. From my own perspective the second option is not attractive because it means the whole LCY operation remains vulnerable to the latest short term idea. Unfortunately I can't see BA wanting to suddenly increase the costs of the whole thing by making it part of mainline. Why in particular do you think that a move to the RJ85 means no mainline accession ever? I know the airplane is smaller, but why should that alone be a deal breaker?
However, as you say, the RJ leases are coming up, so someone will have to make a decision, make a decision, make a decision make a decision make a decision
BTW, did anyone hear a rumour about the departure of one of our very senior people into the ranks of the CAA?
I suppose one could assume from those two scenarios that my job i safe whichever comes to pass. However....if your first option happens, ie the Babybuses, what would be your take on what would happen to me and my LHS colleagues? I know you don't know for certain, but do you think we would be grandfathered by base, or would we be displaced for mainline chaps who would be (presumably) already rated on such a type?
With your second option, I suppose that one has the attractiveness to BA of staying lo cost (relatively anyway) and retaining more freedom of manouvre and perhaps an attempt to expand those lo cost ethics into LGW. From my own perspective the second option is not attractive because it means the whole LCY operation remains vulnerable to the latest short term idea. Unfortunately I can't see BA wanting to suddenly increase the costs of the whole thing by making it part of mainline. Why in particular do you think that a move to the RJ85 means no mainline accession ever? I know the airplane is smaller, but why should that alone be a deal breaker?
However, as you say, the RJ leases are coming up, so someone will have to make a decision, make a decision, make a decision make a decision make a decision
BTW, did anyone hear a rumour about the departure of one of our very senior people into the ranks of the CAA?
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CJ
I'm sure you will appreciate, your ONLY chance of mainline access rests with the BA (BALPA) Company Council, and the will of the mainline pilot community. Certainly BA would never, under any circumstances, volountarily absorb BACF into mainline. Why would they?
If the fleet replacement is RJ85, (less than 100 seats) 'scope' is no longer a factor. BALPA would have no levers (nor interest?) to insist that BA absorb the pilots of this fleet onto the Master Seniority List. It would therefore become a stand alone airline, with associated low staff costs (salary, T&Cs, scheduling, hotels, etc.)
If A318 is identified as the fleet replacement aircraft, BA BALPA would (I hope??) be on the case immediately! Hopefully with the backing of the entire mainline community. In the event that the EDI pilot base was maintained, I would expect the outcome to be virtually identical to the old Cityflyer situation. In other words, any pilot on the RJ fleet would have protected 'grandfather' rights onto the shiny new fleet, (LHS-LHS!) and could not be displaced by LHR pilots, no matter how senior. (Maybe a 'regional' type pay scale though!)
Of course it is not inevitable that the EDI base would be maintained! It may be that the A318s could be operated simply as part of the much larger LHR Airbus fleet, possibly with dual report LHR/LCY.
In this case, I still think BACF pilots would be absorbed, though I suspect 'grandfather' rights may not be possible?? However, pay protection almost certainly would be available, to anyone wishing to work out of LHR/LGW.
The only grey area left is if the RJ100s are retained. This would be very interesting indeed, as it is quite clearly documented, that in this case, the RJ100 fleet becomes 'by default' a mainline fleet.
If this happens, and you want to be mainline, you better hope for a strong response from the BACC!
In any event, I can't see this operation folding. It now has a 'strategic' value to BA, which Bacon never had, and as such, should even withstand it's management with a well proven track record of incompetence, and shall we say, insincerity!
All the above said in the hope that no 'unforseen circumstance' has a detrimental effect on the new company! (If you know what I mean!)
Hope it all works out.
I'm sure you will appreciate, your ONLY chance of mainline access rests with the BA (BALPA) Company Council, and the will of the mainline pilot community. Certainly BA would never, under any circumstances, volountarily absorb BACF into mainline. Why would they?
If the fleet replacement is RJ85, (less than 100 seats) 'scope' is no longer a factor. BALPA would have no levers (nor interest?) to insist that BA absorb the pilots of this fleet onto the Master Seniority List. It would therefore become a stand alone airline, with associated low staff costs (salary, T&Cs, scheduling, hotels, etc.)
If A318 is identified as the fleet replacement aircraft, BA BALPA would (I hope??) be on the case immediately! Hopefully with the backing of the entire mainline community. In the event that the EDI pilot base was maintained, I would expect the outcome to be virtually identical to the old Cityflyer situation. In other words, any pilot on the RJ fleet would have protected 'grandfather' rights onto the shiny new fleet, (LHS-LHS!) and could not be displaced by LHR pilots, no matter how senior. (Maybe a 'regional' type pay scale though!)
Of course it is not inevitable that the EDI base would be maintained! It may be that the A318s could be operated simply as part of the much larger LHR Airbus fleet, possibly with dual report LHR/LCY.
In this case, I still think BACF pilots would be absorbed, though I suspect 'grandfather' rights may not be possible?? However, pay protection almost certainly would be available, to anyone wishing to work out of LHR/LGW.
The only grey area left is if the RJ100s are retained. This would be very interesting indeed, as it is quite clearly documented, that in this case, the RJ100 fleet becomes 'by default' a mainline fleet.
If this happens, and you want to be mainline, you better hope for a strong response from the BACC!
In any event, I can't see this operation folding. It now has a 'strategic' value to BA, which Bacon never had, and as such, should even withstand it's management with a well proven track record of incompetence, and shall we say, insincerity!
All the above said in the hope that no 'unforseen circumstance' has a detrimental effect on the new company! (If you know what I mean!)
Hope it all works out.
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Thankyou TR, much appreciated.
What in your view are the options if the RJ100 is retained then? I suspect those leases will be very cheap given the lack of demand for the a/c elsewhere, and any (BA) beancounter can obviously make the figures say wht they like anyway. The drawback may be the operating cost, but the only advantage I can see for the '85 is the ability to lift a full load further out of LCY. The 318 is obviously a hugely better aeroplane, but the DOC must be an order of magnitude greater. Granted it can carry more pax, but it's still yield at the end of the day, and all our routes are not doing as well as they might. The on-cost of the mainline overhead may not be supportable.
In terms of seats at the pointy end, grandfather or no grandfather - doesn't bother me as long as the pay is protected, it's security I'm after.
Ref Blackcap's question, I was speaking with Nigel and Carl recently, the subject of PH and CAA came up, they seemed to think he had applied for the job in Flight. I thought it was a windup, but they seemed quite sure not.
What in your view are the options if the RJ100 is retained then? I suspect those leases will be very cheap given the lack of demand for the a/c elsewhere, and any (BA) beancounter can obviously make the figures say wht they like anyway. The drawback may be the operating cost, but the only advantage I can see for the '85 is the ability to lift a full load further out of LCY. The 318 is obviously a hugely better aeroplane, but the DOC must be an order of magnitude greater. Granted it can carry more pax, but it's still yield at the end of the day, and all our routes are not doing as well as they might. The on-cost of the mainline overhead may not be supportable.
In terms of seats at the pointy end, grandfather or no grandfather - doesn't bother me as long as the pay is protected, it's security I'm after.
Ref Blackcap's question, I was speaking with Nigel and Carl recently, the subject of PH and CAA came up, they seemed to think he had applied for the job in Flight. I thought it was a windup, but they seemed quite sure not.
ba cityflyer
If there was to be a merger of CF into mainline, how would it be done? Sticking one group onto the bottom of a seniority list is just not in fashion these days. I guess the only corect way to merge would be on continuous service DoJ or something very close.