Pilots leaveing City Jet turns into a flood
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Bit more complicated than that Sarah.
eJ for sure will be taking legal action against that, as apprently it breaches EU Law. Wouldn't be the first time France is forced by the EU to back down.
In any case the legal procedings could take years, so it is unlikely the situation of those flyng for cityjet or eJ will change in the forseable future.
eJ for sure will be taking legal action against that, as apprently it breaches EU Law. Wouldn't be the first time France is forced by the EU to back down.
In any case the legal procedings could take years, so it is unlikely the situation of those flyng for cityjet or eJ will change in the forseable future.
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ImBatman I think the problem for IALPA is likely to be that few Cityjet pilots seem to have joined (though I hasten to add that I simply don't know the numbers, but that is my impression). IALPA have done a lot where pilots join up or where they show some desire to do something (e.g. Ryanair). If you and your colleagues cannot even attend a meeting ....
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ImBatman
There was once a similar attitude in ryanair. The 21st dec will reveal just how much IALPA can do for you.
What harm in at least listening to them? If you think you will achieve anything other than having to leave the company by working without a union, you are mistaken. Once upon a time some ryanair pilots thought they could do without a union, the folly of their ways is now clear to them.
Without active union membership, degradation of T&C's will continue in cityjet, and elsewhere, and, frankly, if you don't at least try to change things, you will deserve it and have no right to moan ever again.
Cityjet management, no doubt, don't give a sh1t about you, you only have each other to improve matters.
Carpe diem.
There was once a similar attitude in ryanair. The 21st dec will reveal just how much IALPA can do for you.
What harm in at least listening to them? If you think you will achieve anything other than having to leave the company by working without a union, you are mistaken. Once upon a time some ryanair pilots thought they could do without a union, the folly of their ways is now clear to them.
Without active union membership, degradation of T&C's will continue in cityjet, and elsewhere, and, frankly, if you don't at least try to change things, you will deserve it and have no right to moan ever again.
Cityjet management, no doubt, don't give a sh1t about you, you only have each other to improve matters.
Carpe diem.
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I'm always confused
At least the Irish have a shot at the US green card lottery, unlike the English.
Wait, didn’t most of Ireland migrate to the States. Call up an ancestor and ask for some sponsorship, or marry a bird or bloke pending your taste.
Anyway why do American pilots want to work for Cityjet? If they have thousands of hours on large regional aircraft why not work for one of the Majors in the States? From what I hear they are all hiring or calling back. Also why don’t the Irish or EU pilots just refuse to fly with the US pilots? Take a stand against these contract pilots. Listen to "CamelhAir".
Oh, and I took the 14 exams so quit your whing'n.
Wait, didn’t most of Ireland migrate to the States. Call up an ancestor and ask for some sponsorship, or marry a bird or bloke pending your taste.
Anyway why do American pilots want to work for Cityjet? If they have thousands of hours on large regional aircraft why not work for one of the Majors in the States? From what I hear they are all hiring or calling back. Also why don’t the Irish or EU pilots just refuse to fly with the US pilots? Take a stand against these contract pilots. Listen to "CamelhAir".
Oh, and I took the 14 exams so quit your whing'n.
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I used to work for CityJet, and I can agree with what is written here before. This is what I remember from my two years there, as F/O and Cpt.
Short, it is a ****-place to work.
The reason is the management pilots, who you as a pilot is most in contact with, and the culture they create.
It's a culture of pure punishment. The sim-sessions are checking rather than training, but not only that, if they don't like you they will fail you for anything no matter how you fly. This is probably even more true regarding the linechecks.
I witnessed many people that were completely
regarding their upgrade. CityJet have no seniority scale and upgrade comes when you have the hours. Normally everyone that applies gets the interview, but either you there or during the sim-check that follows. Ok, some might not pass the selection, yes, but here it is pure politics. If you once did a mistake (mistake being everything from getting caught reading on the flightdeck, eating the same time as the other guy, not copying via volmet all the weather in central Europe on a flight from CDG to ZRH, not simply being liked by chief pilot etc etc) you will never get the upgrade.
Pilots have been so disappointed with, among others, the chief pilot, that they avoid his room in the office. In other companies I've worked in the chief pilots door is always open and you can pop in for a chat or a coffee. In CityJet his door is also open, but people avoid it... and there is good reasons to do so.
Crewcontrol has no respect of you private life, they constantly call you on days off and sometimes even during vacation. You start as a new guy doing them favour after favour, but understand soon that you will get nothing back (that is doing a swap, or arrange a day off och vacation for a medical appointment, funeral or other whatever family event). Crewplanning and crewcontrol have a few members who seem to come straight from an Irish highschool (cheap?) and are happy to control a pilot, and they come with no respect what so ever. I don't need much respect, but after all we fly (I flew) for Air France with up to 100 pax onboard. I thought that I ought to be spoken to and treated better than I was.
On that subject, you will never get the vacation you request, if you get any vacation at all. Sometimes it just appears on your roster because it suits the company so. I worked there for two years, and left CityJet with more than a years vacation. And yes, I was applying for vacation frequently.
After two years in the company I was totally exhausted. For one thing the lack of vacation, and the other that you work a lot... Having friends in Ryan and easyJet coming from CityJet, they say they are not tired after a four sector day, simply because the aircraft. The 146 is very demanding to fly, even more demanding with the maintenace in CityJet (APU and autopilot very often u/s).
Me flying a "modern" aircraft now, don't have that problem anymore. I work for a company who respects you and your private life, the rosters are more human and you can actually use the vacation that is legally yours.
Having said this, I would recommend CityJet for unexperienced pilots. You get good hours quick, and you'll develop excellent flying skills in the classic cockpit with sometimes no autopilot, and if you stay a few yaers you will have your upgrade. And after all, it is a company within Groupe Air France.
But, for experienced pilots there are many other much better options out there. (Unless you come on a contract and can cash the big €.) But as a longterm job it won't work. You will feel it soon, the lack of energy in you body, as well the psychological pressure. Even if you only see great colleges (many of them!), the only thing you natrually talk about is the going on in the company.
Good Luck!
Short, it is a ****-place to work.
The reason is the management pilots, who you as a pilot is most in contact with, and the culture they create.
It's a culture of pure punishment. The sim-sessions are checking rather than training, but not only that, if they don't like you they will fail you for anything no matter how you fly. This is probably even more true regarding the linechecks.
I witnessed many people that were completely
regarding their upgrade. CityJet have no seniority scale and upgrade comes when you have the hours. Normally everyone that applies gets the interview, but either you there or during the sim-check that follows. Ok, some might not pass the selection, yes, but here it is pure politics. If you once did a mistake (mistake being everything from getting caught reading on the flightdeck, eating the same time as the other guy, not copying via volmet all the weather in central Europe on a flight from CDG to ZRH, not simply being liked by chief pilot etc etc) you will never get the upgrade.Pilots have been so disappointed with, among others, the chief pilot, that they avoid his room in the office. In other companies I've worked in the chief pilots door is always open and you can pop in for a chat or a coffee. In CityJet his door is also open, but people avoid it... and there is good reasons to do so.
Crewcontrol has no respect of you private life, they constantly call you on days off and sometimes even during vacation. You start as a new guy doing them favour after favour, but understand soon that you will get nothing back (that is doing a swap, or arrange a day off och vacation for a medical appointment, funeral or other whatever family event). Crewplanning and crewcontrol have a few members who seem to come straight from an Irish highschool (cheap?) and are happy to control a pilot, and they come with no respect what so ever. I don't need much respect, but after all we fly (I flew) for Air France with up to 100 pax onboard. I thought that I ought to be spoken to and treated better than I was.
On that subject, you will never get the vacation you request, if you get any vacation at all. Sometimes it just appears on your roster because it suits the company so. I worked there for two years, and left CityJet with more than a years vacation. And yes, I was applying for vacation frequently.
After two years in the company I was totally exhausted. For one thing the lack of vacation, and the other that you work a lot... Having friends in Ryan and easyJet coming from CityJet, they say they are not tired after a four sector day, simply because the aircraft. The 146 is very demanding to fly, even more demanding with the maintenace in CityJet (APU and autopilot very often u/s).
Me flying a "modern" aircraft now, don't have that problem anymore. I work for a company who respects you and your private life, the rosters are more human and you can actually use the vacation that is legally yours.
Having said this, I would recommend CityJet for unexperienced pilots. You get good hours quick, and you'll develop excellent flying skills in the classic cockpit with sometimes no autopilot, and if you stay a few yaers you will have your upgrade. And after all, it is a company within Groupe Air France.
But, for experienced pilots there are many other much better options out there. (Unless you come on a contract and can cash the big €.) But as a longterm job it won't work. You will feel it soon, the lack of energy in you body, as well the psychological pressure. Even if you only see great colleges (many of them!), the only thing you natrually talk about is the
going on in the company.Good Luck!
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I dont have anything against US citizen coming to Europe, as long they spend their money here and go home after VISITING europe( for 2-3 weeks). outside of this, you are the unwelcome and you are "technically" illegal in Europe if you come to work here.
when I see the numbers of emails from EU friends contacting me, cuz they have no job and can not get experience, I think this is disgusting to know what the Irish government is doing to them after spending a fortune in their JAR license.
to all US citizen:"GO HOME !"
when I see the numbers of emails from EU friends contacting me, cuz they have no job and can not get experience, I think this is disgusting to know what the Irish government is doing to them after spending a fortune in their JAR license.
to all US citizen:"GO HOME !"
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I dont have anything against US citizen coming to Europe, as long they spend their money here and go home after VISITING europe( for 2-3 weeks). outside of this, you are the unwelcome and you are "technically" illegal in Europe if you come to work here.
when I see the numbers of emails from EU friends contacting me, cuz they have no job and can not get experience, I think this is disgusting to know what the Irish government is doing to them after spending a fortune in their JAR license.
to all US citizen:"GO HOME !"
when I see the numbers of emails from EU friends contacting me, cuz they have no job and can not get experience, I think this is disgusting to know what the Irish government is doing to them after spending a fortune in their JAR license.
to all US citizen:"GO HOME !"
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Look closer friend!
Who are the contracts with again?
Re: lesser contract after one year, well I doubt it, cats need their cream.
Re: having to obtain a JAR licence well I should F??K??G think so
How one can be employed in an Irish company flying Irish and UK reg aircraft on FAA licence' is beyond me!
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And would 1 year be long enough to get the licence? I doubt it,
remember the exams, not exactly ppl stuff from what I recall. When you finish the exams u kind of look like this!
remember the exams, not exactly ppl stuff from what I recall. When you finish the exams u kind of look like this!
Last edited by mickmccarthy; 20th Dec 2006 at 22:34. Reason: Add colour
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[quote=The Lone Ranger;3040407]This Co dose not deserve the people it has,the sooner everyone gets out and leave it to those military types the better.125 staff left last year thats 25% ,that says it all,managers 
you guys should be proud of your work ,if you keep going at this rate all that will be left are military,americans, and Gimps.
3 more Captains going shortly. Now with Aer Lingus hireing on top of the ryan air f/o's one wonders will there be anybody left!!
you guys should be proud of your work ,if you keep going at this rate all that will be left are military,americans, and Gimps.
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A few of my buddies, "The Americans", seem somewhat happy there. They say it is a lot of work with no dispatch ect. but they have said that everyone is very professional. If they are indeed unhappy then I'm sure they would not proudly admit it and just suck it up and finish up their 1 year contract. It will be interesting to see who skips their Mesaba furlough recall in order to stay on with CityJet. Tough decision for some I am sure. What are some specifics of why everyone is so unhappy with CityJet? Just curious since I am in talks with David Finn to join the company.
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As an old CityJet-pilot, being unfairly treated for a couple of years, to hear and read all this is like music in my ears!
Too bad I couldn't experience all this from the inside, it would be worth it.
I really hope Air France will react on the CityJet management of potatofarmers!
Too bad I couldn't experience all this from the inside, it would be worth it.
I really hope Air France will react on the CityJet management of potatofarmers!
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From across the Channel
I've just spent the last hour reading all the messages of that thread and I feel like my arms are falling off.
I didn't realize the pilots' situation was that bad in CityJet and I thank you all for your inputs that will sure open our eyes wider.
Well I don't know if AF knows as much as I seem to have learned tonight, but rest assured that we will make them react!
Things are going to have to change.
I didn't realize the pilots' situation was that bad in CityJet and I thank you all for your inputs that will sure open our eyes wider.
I really hope Air France will react on the CityJet management of potatofarmers!
Things are going to have to change.
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The chickens are coming home to roost. After years of silence, its all coming out now.
Whos going to be next out? Management claim that only a minority were looking elsewhere. Oops, got that one a bit wrong.
Seems that maybe something should change. But that would be to admit they screwed up, so looks like we’ll getting more of the same. The military geniuses in charge seem to think that if bullying works as a control method on the parade ground, itll work just as well with civilian pilots and cabin crew. But looks like the feckin civilians dont appreciate such good management and all the ungrateful feckers want to do is leave! Wonder why….
To those Americans and other prospective joiners who wonder what’s wrong, where to start?
Firstly management style is like George Bush, you’re either with us or against us. With us means you will happily see your life screwed up on a whim, will never ever ever complain, will pretend management mean it when they act all friendly. You will pretend cityjet is a great company with great prospects and that you have no interest in joining Aer Lingus or Easyjet (after all, who really wants to fly an Airbus?), that you never want to leave and that unions are a very bad thing and that management really care about you.
Failure to adhere to any of these traits means your against us and your life will be made hell.
You will also be treated like a child. For example, you are not allowed into the CDG ramp office on turnarounds and if you dare go in, you will be reported by the work-shy HR rep.
Rostering: You may be in command of a passenger jet airliner, but your life will in the command of an untrained 20year old who previously worked in Pennys. Cityjet is great if you like 6 and 7 day weeks followed by 2 days off. There is no pattern and no predictability, rosters are only published at the last minute, then will be changed regularly. There is no work practice agreement at all. Turnarounds are very long, so a 3 short sector day can take over 10 duty hours. If you do them a favour, you will never see a return for it. The company love to talk about “flexibility”. This means, in reality, that they have carte blanche to f**k you about as they see fit. You have no comeback except to go sick.
Leave: impossible to get (not enough pilots to give everyone leave). Allocated according to if youre liked or not.
The Chief Pilot: Hard to know whether to laugh or cry. Impossible to talk to (unless smart ass comments count as conversation). Likes to do things like fail pilots for removing their tie after push back on line checks. Also thinks that emergency checklist need not necessarily be followed in certain cases if its commercially better to continue. Health and safety: Cityjet is great if you’re on a diet, cos you wont be fed on board. Constant hunger is a companion. Mostly you’re parked on remote stands to getting food in the terminal is impossible. And bringing your own is not an option as by day 4 of a trip, its not going to be very hygienic. It is almost impossible to get food to eat on board downroute due to staying in airport hotels with no shops nearby. After a 10 hour duty day with no food, its not exactly very safe. Numerous reports have gone in, but the company claim every time they never heard about it before. The IAA of course say nothing. So everybody flies around tired, hungry and fatigued.
The aircraft: The aircraft are in a terrible state, all at least 20 years old, the MEL is needed on almost every sector. There is pressure to take very bad aircraft. How about no autopilot into Zurich on a bad winters night? Or across the Alps with only 1 pack? The contract engineers have been heard to say they wouldn’t put their families on the aircraft.
There is also fuel pressure which some people listen to. What kind of a company has the engineers flag that aircraft were regularly arriving in with very low fuel loads?
Training: You are not trained with knowledge, knowledge is beaten into you. The training philosophy is that you are either military (and therefore a total genius) or not (in which case you are totally unable to fly). The main method of correcting mistakes in training is being shouted at. In fact, there is no such thing as training, its actually an extended line check starting from day 1. Unless your military again, in which case an inability to pass line-training in under 100 sectors is not considered a handicap. Not surprising I suppose considering the head of training has difficulty with FL100 v FL110 and a senior training captain thinks landing in CDG with no FO and no call to ATC is good behaviour (both ex-military of course).
Command upgrade: No seniority here. Interviews are held, but in reality its pre-selected. Military is a decided advantage, no command checks required. How about an FO from other company, on another type, getting direct entry command with no command check and then getting a sim job within weeks? Guess what, hes buddies with the right people. On the other hand, many FO’s have been told by the chief pilot that they will never get command.
Pay: Very poor, people leave to go Ryanair to improve it!! The overnight allowance hasn’t increased in several years. The basic pay increase is less than inflation. Management call it a pay “agreement”, although not one pilot was ever consulted. We need IALPA NOW to fix the situation.
So why do they act like this? The answer is Sigmar aviation. The management of cityjet and sigmar are one and same. Guess who supplies the contract pilots? So permanent pilots leaving lowers the payroll and allows more contractors in, so more kick back for the bosses. And guess who owns the houses they live in? And why do DUB crews do so many overnights? Guess who takes a commission for booking all those hotel rooms?
Splitbar:
Your contact is known as the “Smiling Assassin.” With good reason. Like a politican, tells you what you want to hear. Not that you’ll ever actually see any promises come good.
SkyteamPA:
Im not surprised your shocked, most AF pilots know little about cityjet. This is how some pilots flying AF flights are treated.
This is not the company where you wonder who’ll leave next, it’s the company you wonder who will still actually be here in 6 months, never mind a year. The symbol of cityjet is a goose, however it looks more like a turkey, which is very appropriate.
Whos going to be next out? Management claim that only a minority were looking elsewhere. Oops, got that one a bit wrong.
Seems that maybe something should change. But that would be to admit they screwed up, so looks like we’ll getting more of the same. The military geniuses in charge seem to think that if bullying works as a control method on the parade ground, itll work just as well with civilian pilots and cabin crew. But looks like the feckin civilians dont appreciate such good management and all the ungrateful feckers want to do is leave! Wonder why….
To those Americans and other prospective joiners who wonder what’s wrong, where to start?
Firstly management style is like George Bush, you’re either with us or against us. With us means you will happily see your life screwed up on a whim, will never ever ever complain, will pretend management mean it when they act all friendly. You will pretend cityjet is a great company with great prospects and that you have no interest in joining Aer Lingus or Easyjet (after all, who really wants to fly an Airbus?), that you never want to leave and that unions are a very bad thing and that management really care about you.
Failure to adhere to any of these traits means your against us and your life will be made hell.
You will also be treated like a child. For example, you are not allowed into the CDG ramp office on turnarounds and if you dare go in, you will be reported by the work-shy HR rep.
Rostering: You may be in command of a passenger jet airliner, but your life will in the command of an untrained 20year old who previously worked in Pennys. Cityjet is great if you like 6 and 7 day weeks followed by 2 days off. There is no pattern and no predictability, rosters are only published at the last minute, then will be changed regularly. There is no work practice agreement at all. Turnarounds are very long, so a 3 short sector day can take over 10 duty hours. If you do them a favour, you will never see a return for it. The company love to talk about “flexibility”. This means, in reality, that they have carte blanche to f**k you about as they see fit. You have no comeback except to go sick.
Leave: impossible to get (not enough pilots to give everyone leave). Allocated according to if youre liked or not.
The Chief Pilot: Hard to know whether to laugh or cry. Impossible to talk to (unless smart ass comments count as conversation). Likes to do things like fail pilots for removing their tie after push back on line checks. Also thinks that emergency checklist need not necessarily be followed in certain cases if its commercially better to continue. Health and safety: Cityjet is great if you’re on a diet, cos you wont be fed on board. Constant hunger is a companion. Mostly you’re parked on remote stands to getting food in the terminal is impossible. And bringing your own is not an option as by day 4 of a trip, its not going to be very hygienic. It is almost impossible to get food to eat on board downroute due to staying in airport hotels with no shops nearby. After a 10 hour duty day with no food, its not exactly very safe. Numerous reports have gone in, but the company claim every time they never heard about it before. The IAA of course say nothing. So everybody flies around tired, hungry and fatigued.
The aircraft: The aircraft are in a terrible state, all at least 20 years old, the MEL is needed on almost every sector. There is pressure to take very bad aircraft. How about no autopilot into Zurich on a bad winters night? Or across the Alps with only 1 pack? The contract engineers have been heard to say they wouldn’t put their families on the aircraft.
There is also fuel pressure which some people listen to. What kind of a company has the engineers flag that aircraft were regularly arriving in with very low fuel loads?
Training: You are not trained with knowledge, knowledge is beaten into you. The training philosophy is that you are either military (and therefore a total genius) or not (in which case you are totally unable to fly). The main method of correcting mistakes in training is being shouted at. In fact, there is no such thing as training, its actually an extended line check starting from day 1. Unless your military again, in which case an inability to pass line-training in under 100 sectors is not considered a handicap. Not surprising I suppose considering the head of training has difficulty with FL100 v FL110 and a senior training captain thinks landing in CDG with no FO and no call to ATC is good behaviour (both ex-military of course).
Command upgrade: No seniority here. Interviews are held, but in reality its pre-selected. Military is a decided advantage, no command checks required. How about an FO from other company, on another type, getting direct entry command with no command check and then getting a sim job within weeks? Guess what, hes buddies with the right people. On the other hand, many FO’s have been told by the chief pilot that they will never get command.
Pay: Very poor, people leave to go Ryanair to improve it!! The overnight allowance hasn’t increased in several years. The basic pay increase is less than inflation. Management call it a pay “agreement”, although not one pilot was ever consulted. We need IALPA NOW to fix the situation.
So why do they act like this? The answer is Sigmar aviation. The management of cityjet and sigmar are one and same. Guess who supplies the contract pilots? So permanent pilots leaving lowers the payroll and allows more contractors in, so more kick back for the bosses. And guess who owns the houses they live in? And why do DUB crews do so many overnights? Guess who takes a commission for booking all those hotel rooms?
Splitbar:
Your contact is known as the “Smiling Assassin.” With good reason. Like a politican, tells you what you want to hear. Not that you’ll ever actually see any promises come good.
SkyteamPA:
Im not surprised your shocked, most AF pilots know little about cityjet. This is how some pilots flying AF flights are treated.
This is not the company where you wonder who’ll leave next, it’s the company you wonder who will still actually be here in 6 months, never mind a year. The symbol of cityjet is a goose, however it looks more like a turkey, which is very appropriate.
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ALPA could care less about small carriers
Interesting statement. After over a decade at an ALPA carrier my observation was that for 1.95 percent of your gross pay they would give great lip service to the needs of the regional pilots while spending all of their time supporting the needs of the mainline pilot.
I'll never willingly give another penny to ALPA.
I'll never willingly give another penny to ALPA.
Ask any of the old Western Airlines pilots. Company was dying on the vine, brought in a great CEO. The pilots created a plan to save the airline-which helped save the airline-, ALPA tried to shutdown our MEC. Because we would not do things their way.
And of course there is the famous front page of the Miami Herald. Picture from the fold up shows the hangar doors closed at Eastern Airlines. Headline: Eastern closes doors forever. Head of ALPA and IAW standing with their fist in the air. The quote says, “WE WON”, and thirty thousand people we unemployed. The only thing ALPA cares about is themselves.
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SkyteamPA,
This situation is known by AF management and some senior AF pilots.As far as Cityjet is profitable no questions ask.The only thing that will stop this dramatic story is AF...or an accident!What Echo97 has described is the truth,no exagerration.You have to believe him i witnessed all of that,and i know that some french unions are aware as well.
Good luck to you all.
This situation is known by AF management and some senior AF pilots.As far as Cityjet is profitable no questions ask.The only thing that will stop this dramatic story is AF...or an accident!What Echo97 has described is the truth,no exagerration.You have to believe him i witnessed all of that,and i know that some french unions are aware as well.
Good luck to you all.