FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
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Enough already!
It was said:
and I think most of them DO understand it. It's just the same old names that come back. What's the point guys? If you're right, you'll get your Ts and Cs. I don't believe for a minute that we will. If you're right, you'll have integrated seniority, and you'll all be happy bears.
If you're wrong.....well, you'll be wrong, but the mortgage will still need to be paid. We could argue about the TUPE implications of a share buyout, but it's pointless because both sides of this divide cannot be correct. May I suggest we stop the slagging, which does no-one any good, and probably puts the travelling public off from buying tickets in either of our current airlines. We've probably all said too much, maybe a period of silence would be in order - after all, the more one nails one's colours to the mast, the more painful it is to admit one was wrong.
And one of us is definitely wrong.
Well said Torycanyon!! What part of, "This is NOT a merger" do the BACON guys not quite understand?
If you're wrong.....well, you'll be wrong, but the mortgage will still need to be paid. We could argue about the TUPE implications of a share buyout, but it's pointless because both sides of this divide cannot be correct. May I suggest we stop the slagging, which does no-one any good, and probably puts the travelling public off from buying tickets in either of our current airlines. We've probably all said too much, maybe a period of silence would be in order - after all, the more one nails one's colours to the mast, the more painful it is to admit one was wrong.
And one of us is definitely wrong.
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noiffsorbuts (sic)
No, he really doesn't. He is CHOOSING to. What do you have that he wants? He obviously wants the transition to be smooth and to retain the services of some of your crews, but it isn't a deal-breaker, for the reason previously stated - which is that most of you will be knocking on his door in any case if BA just shut you down.
I might be a bit behind, but I thought that the agreement has not yet been reached and that due diligence was still underway. Until signatures are on paper, it is an agreement "in principle".
...and if you hold that line, my guess is that you will be handed a P45 by your present employer, and the three sentences above will be redundant.
So let me get this straight. You are going to tell the only guy who can save your jobs, that he had better damn well give you what you want or you will gather up your toys and leave? Yeah, that's a REALLY strong bargaining position... good luck.
I think you misunderstand the process. He is under no obligation to complete.
So why is JF seeking to negotiate with us if he can do what he likes?
Answer. Because he has to.
Answer. Because he has to.
Flybe have agreed to purchase 85% of the share capital of BA Connect. The projected completion date is 22nd December (we are told).
That means that thereafter JF can no sooner reduce our Ts and Cs than our present managers can. Should they, or he seek to do so then he would be up to his neck in Industrial Tribunals and High Court applications.
So, put simply my friend, unless we agree a replacement set of terms and conditions, integration between our two work groups does not take place!
So, put simply my friend, unless we agree a replacement set of terms and conditions, integration between our two work groups does not take place!
That is our bargaining position, wether or not you like it.
However unless his rejection is as a result of a highly technical due diligence item, Flybe would be absolutely crucified with the penalty sums it would have to pay BA for failure to complete.
Gender Faculty Specialist
I personally don't give a toss if this is a merger, takeover or an acquisition. Call it what you like but it is what it is and none of us are going to change that.
- BACon may or may not have much of a future. I don't know.
- Flybe HAS got a future, with or without this merger/takeover/acquisition.
- Flybe pilots, quite naturally, want to defend their turf/seniority/prospects.
- BACon pilots, quite naturally, want the best deal they can get.
- We are all rubbing each other up the wrong way.
- I, personally, will have no problem flying with ex-BACon pilots in the future, regardless of what really happens, and I'm sure that we will all maintain our professional standards as and when we start flying together.
- The BACon scheduling agreement in it's current form will cease to exist, as has already been said and agreed with some of the more realistic BACon pilots, you all have to accept that if you do decide to sign on the dotted line.
- The Flybe scheduling agreement will have to improve, as a secondary effect of this merger/takeover/acquisition, and I'm sure that the Flybe pilots will appreciate that.
- Ultimately this merger/takeover/acquisition will benefit EVERYBODY in the long run, if we are all willing to take the rough with the smooth for however long it takes then we will ALL be much better off in the future.
Those are the hard facts as I see them.
What I find unnecessary, and I have been guilty of it aswell, is name calling and name dropping because it really doesn't benefit anybody. By all means discuss our situation but leave the childish behaviour for the play ground.
- BACon may or may not have much of a future. I don't know.
- Flybe HAS got a future, with or without this merger/takeover/acquisition.
- Flybe pilots, quite naturally, want to defend their turf/seniority/prospects.
- BACon pilots, quite naturally, want the best deal they can get.
- We are all rubbing each other up the wrong way.
- I, personally, will have no problem flying with ex-BACon pilots in the future, regardless of what really happens, and I'm sure that we will all maintain our professional standards as and when we start flying together.
- The BACon scheduling agreement in it's current form will cease to exist, as has already been said and agreed with some of the more realistic BACon pilots, you all have to accept that if you do decide to sign on the dotted line.
- The Flybe scheduling agreement will have to improve, as a secondary effect of this merger/takeover/acquisition, and I'm sure that the Flybe pilots will appreciate that.
- Ultimately this merger/takeover/acquisition will benefit EVERYBODY in the long run, if we are all willing to take the rough with the smooth for however long it takes then we will ALL be much better off in the future.
Those are the hard facts as I see them.
What I find unnecessary, and I have been guilty of it aswell, is name calling and name dropping because it really doesn't benefit anybody. By all means discuss our situation but leave the childish behaviour for the play ground.
Last edited by Chesty Morgan; 9th Dec 2006 at 12:19.
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Forum title
I think the name of this forum spells the matter out quite well
'Flybe to ACQUIRE BA Connect'
Acquire as also stated in the press releases defrinately means buy or take over.
'Flybe to ACQUIRE BA Connect'
Acquire as also stated in the press releases defrinately means buy or take over.
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Tory and Beaver
Yes it is a takeover.
If there is any part of my last post explaining the company and employment issues that prevail thereafter please feel free to PM me.
Otherwise please stop your triumphalist rant! It is utterly meaningless and does not gain the oxygen of credibility by its repetition. It merely, with respect, serves to underline your own lack of understanding of the legal principles which apply.
Like someone has just commented...............the general public should properly wonder at who is driving them around the sky. Some posts are just crazy.
Yes it is a takeover.
If there is any part of my last post explaining the company and employment issues that prevail thereafter please feel free to PM me.
Otherwise please stop your triumphalist rant! It is utterly meaningless and does not gain the oxygen of credibility by its repetition. It merely, with respect, serves to underline your own lack of understanding of the legal principles which apply.
Like someone has just commented...............the general public should properly wonder at who is driving them around the sky. Some posts are just crazy.
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Remoak
I understand the process better than you might imagine.
It clearly does not help myself or others trying to explain it to you from this side of the fence because you will not take it from us!
There is a great deal of misunderstanding on your side of the fence about what has or has not been agreed , what the process is and what the implications are.
It is hardly surprising that there should be a sea of lay assertions from barrack room lawyers who actualy dont have a clue what they are talking about.
I suggest for all our sakes that you at Flybe ask your PN at Balpa through your CC to explain to you exactly what the deal is and what are the implications of it.
This cancerous and mutualy destructive rant is largely fuelled through ignorance.
At Bacon we have had explained to us very clearly what the process is and what are the steps to coming together..or not. I commend the same lesson to you guys...and then we might stop being quite so downright nasty to each other.
I understand the process better than you might imagine.
It clearly does not help myself or others trying to explain it to you from this side of the fence because you will not take it from us!
There is a great deal of misunderstanding on your side of the fence about what has or has not been agreed , what the process is and what the implications are.
It is hardly surprising that there should be a sea of lay assertions from barrack room lawyers who actualy dont have a clue what they are talking about.
I suggest for all our sakes that you at Flybe ask your PN at Balpa through your CC to explain to you exactly what the deal is and what are the implications of it.
This cancerous and mutualy destructive rant is largely fuelled through ignorance.
At Bacon we have had explained to us very clearly what the process is and what are the steps to coming together..or not. I commend the same lesson to you guys...and then we might stop being quite so downright nasty to each other.
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I think If I were JF reading this I would just say it's not worth the aggro and walk away leaving BACON and its people to their fates fate while simply starting to fly the routes which it vacates in my own right.
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noiffsorbuts
OK well enough said, I think.
I'm not on either side of the "fence", and I do know how it works, having been through it twice in my career (and served on an involved CC in one case). Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Although I'd still love someone to explain to me how the BACON bargaining position has any strength whatsoever...
OK well enough said, I think.
I'm not on either side of the "fence", and I do know how it works, having been through it twice in my career (and served on an involved CC in one case). Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Although I'd still love someone to explain to me how the BACON bargaining position has any strength whatsoever...
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Not worth the effort debating all the pro's and con's. Best thing to do is just get a job that pays proper money with one of the larger operators. Loads and loads of jobs. Better paid Fist Officers at Easyjet than a Captain of a Dash 400. Why? Because that's the way it has been in the past, that's the way it is now and that's the way it will be in the future. 400 Pilots required at Easy next year alone. Engage brain guys.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Hudson, change the record old chap. The people this involves are more than aware of EasyJet and all the others and they don't need your help in making their minds up.
Not anymore.
Better paid Fist Officers at Easyjet than a Captain of a Dash 400.
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That's it.
That's it, I see no reason to continue posting on here, this thread has degenerated into a slanging match somewhat similar to a kids panto, but without the leading girl!!!!
Roll on the 22nd. I promise not to do any "I told you so" and I hope everyone else will do the same. At least we should have some answers, and maybe the travelling public will start to think that maybe Flybe and BACON actually employ some adults.
Merry Xmas to all my readers, (even Ghengis!)
Roll on the 22nd. I promise not to do any "I told you so" and I hope everyone else will do the same. At least we should have some answers, and maybe the travelling public will start to think that maybe Flybe and BACON actually employ some adults.
Merry Xmas to all my readers, (even Ghengis!)
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It would be helpful if our managemant and/or CC would give us the low down.
Unfortunately we are still being kept in the dark. Some form of presentation would not go amiss but as usual we will be the last to know.The CC should be doing there utmost to ensure we are kept informed but alas as usual, its all secret handshakes and forelock tugging.
A whisper here, a whisper there, is all we get & We all know what happened to GM with his "Careless Whisper".
Unfortunately we are still being kept in the dark. Some form of presentation would not go amiss but as usual we will be the last to know.The CC should be doing there utmost to ensure we are kept informed but alas as usual, its all secret handshakes and forelock tugging.
A whisper here, a whisper there, is all we get & We all know what happened to GM with his "Careless Whisper".
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Gone very quiet!
Tory tell us more! Who was GM and what happened?
Surely not more dirty dealings behind the bike shed? Manx/BRAL used to be run like that - since BALPA recognition things have been done properly (and where they haven't (I can think of at least 5 cases) pilots have subsequently received (in some cases substantial) payouts for the incompetence of BA legal and BACON HR.
Or am I missing a point - was GM a Manager?
PS Tory - sent you a PM
Tory tell us more! Who was GM and what happened?
Surely not more dirty dealings behind the bike shed? Manx/BRAL used to be run like that - since BALPA recognition things have been done properly (and where they haven't (I can think of at least 5 cases) pilots have subsequently received (in some cases substantial) payouts for the incompetence of BA legal and BACON HR.
Or am I missing a point - was GM a Manager?
PS Tory - sent you a PM
Last edited by Blackcap; 10th Dec 2006 at 21:51. Reason: sent TC a PM
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GM = George Michael ??
I was hoping for a better answer!
Time can never mend the careless whispers of a good friend
To the heart and mind, ignorance is kind
there's no comfort in the truth
pain is all you'll find
Should've known better
To the heart and mind, ignorance is kind
there's no comfort in the truth
pain is all you'll find
Should've known better
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Exeter Losing Patientce with Lack of Progress with Connect CC
Word from Exeter is that Flybe Management are growing increasingly impatient with the lack of progress and dialogue with Connect CC. CO's blowing a smokestack on Friday during a project review meeting about having tabled an offer on scheduling agreement and T&C's on Nov 21st and heard nothing back since except meetings cancelled and purdah like silence. Much talk of patience being lost and time to walk away.
Not sure who would be left to pick up the peices in BACON though. Commercial planning team gone to Logan and Jet2, ops team with jobs elsewhere, marketing (what there was!) gone back to BA. Sounds like there would be no viable org structure left for Bacon if flybe pull out.
Good luck to all!
Not sure who would be left to pick up the peices in BACON though. Commercial planning team gone to Logan and Jet2, ops team with jobs elsewhere, marketing (what there was!) gone back to BA. Sounds like there would be no viable org structure left for Bacon if flybe pull out.
Good luck to all!
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The only way Jimbo can walk away from the contract is if the due diligence process throws up summat technical and unforseen.
As my previous posts have tried to explain, merely because we dont agree to change all our existing Ts and Cs to whatever he wants and within a time frame of his choosing DOES NOT give him an out without horrendous financial penalties..........(I dont expect you to accept that from me but I can assure you that is a factual statement which you Balpa PN will confirm.)
Have to say that I am beginning to wonder about the advice that JF had before he signed if he is genuinely so frustrated.
Seems no one had explained to him the implications of the ex BRAL final salary pension scheme and our Ts and Cs were documents of public record before he signed. So he had actual or constructive notice of them all.
If this does fall over the Sh one T will fly everywhere and stick on all participants, none more so than on your man himself but more particularly on those he doubtless paid vast sums of money to advise him.
As my previous posts have tried to explain, merely because we dont agree to change all our existing Ts and Cs to whatever he wants and within a time frame of his choosing DOES NOT give him an out without horrendous financial penalties..........(I dont expect you to accept that from me but I can assure you that is a factual statement which you Balpa PN will confirm.)
Have to say that I am beginning to wonder about the advice that JF had before he signed if he is genuinely so frustrated.
Seems no one had explained to him the implications of the ex BRAL final salary pension scheme and our Ts and Cs were documents of public record before he signed. So he had actual or constructive notice of them all.
If this does fall over the Sh one T will fly everywhere and stick on all participants, none more so than on your man himself but more particularly on those he doubtless paid vast sums of money to advise him.
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I know J.F. from old and he throws his toys out of his pram at the slightest thing. If somebody objects he will just walk away. If that happens what about a staff buyout of BA connect? Its been done before.