Picket Pilot's

[fmgc]

Whilst I don't sgree with Lucifer's sentiments I have to say that he raises an interesting situation.

How many CPL's fATPLs are there in the UK who are seeking that first step into an airline?

[Kraut]

NORMAN STANLEY F
I agree on your statements, except:............
I also think that we may end up with slightly different agreements for different bases. The 'one size fits all' approach is increasingly unworkable.........
If we start splitting special issues, where do we realy start and where do we end? The danger of splitting up the pilot community itself is immense! If considered even, only very, very careful!? Dangerous approach.
I. e., not everybody is willing to accept that DTM/ORY have a nite curfue, not everybody understands, that London bases have a different "rest period"!?
FMGC
your comments are a little misleading, too!
Who is opting out of the "pension issue" gets 6% salary increase!
How do you predict 3,5% RPI? Is that an official number or "selfmade"?
Sorry, a little OFF Topic, but had to be said!

[fmgc]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=19

Doesn't seem that 3.5% is too far off the mark.

[cargo boy]

As far as I know that is the best deal that any airline has been awarded this year and indeed significantly better than nearly all other sectors of UK industry.

Not quite NSF but not bad either. I think you'll find the latest Virgin Atlantic pay deal probably eclipses the easyJet one. From what I can find out it is a rise of something like 12% over 18 months and they still are contracted to fly only 750 hours a year. Add to that an increase in Loss of Licence protection, health insurance that covers their basic salary AND their hourly flight pay and improved pension.

Latest figures I can get hold of show the following pay scales for Virgin Atlantic flight crew as at 1st july 2006:

Year 1 F/O: £44,624 plus £16.90 per block hour = £57,299
Year 1 Cpt: £74,291 plus £26.00 per block hour = £93,791

Year 10 F/O: £57,00 plus £16.90 per block hour = £69,675
Year 10 Cpt: 92,779 plus £26.00 per block hour = £112,279

Basic and hourly pay goes up again in January 2007 and july 2007 respectively.

Loss of Licence insurance as follows:

From July 2006; F/O: £113,375 Cpt: £175,000; From July 2007; F/O: £130,000 Cpt: £200,000.

I'd join them, if I could, only for the 750 hours per year. Everything else is icing on the cake.

And before the detractors and anti-union muppets jump in, this level of pay is only achievable by having very high Balpa membership, a very talented negotiating team and an airline that is profitable.

[A4]

Under UK law, provided that a union has followed the correct procedures, striking is not illegal and therefore you cannot be sacked / fired / dismissed / persecuted etc. The Company would therefore be unable to "replace" a striking worker.

On the "easy" deal.... I think it was a reasonable result under the circumstances. It puts a two year line capt on about £85k - that's not too bad and it is a first step - there will be negotiation in future years.......

The next issue is lifestyle and it does appear there is a glimmer of recognition on the part of the company that they need to address this issue if they don't want a repeat next year, of this years "problems" - which I think are completely unforgiveable and those responsible should pay.

Good luck to all parties in your battles - but keep it real.

A4

[niknak]

I work at a UK airport where Flybe, BMI and others have a major presence and I know that the crews (front and back!) work bloody hard for what they earn.
Unfortunately any industrial action would only affect the passengers and all the hard work done to get the routes up and running so successfully would be undone within a few days.

I only hope that any problems can be resolved without resorting to the need for industrial action.

[A4]

NikNak,

This is the problem. Pilots, as a whole, LOVE their job. It's a pretty unique way to earn a living. We have worked hard to get to where we are and are mostly a pretty pragmatic bunch who like to get the task done and provide a good, safe service to the travelling public (Well I do at least )

We also realise that pi$$ing off the people who pay our wages (pax not management!) is not a good idea.... BUT there comes a point when enough is enough. Being taken advantage of because of our "can do" attitude only sells ourselves down the river. The "management" need to understand and APPRECIATE us for the ASSET we are. Brinkmanship is the order of the day, but any managment worth its salt must realise that a strike would be disasterous. However, the longer they string it out means the planes keep flying. This is perhaps why the current negotiations on lifestyle in easy have a deadline of mid July.

This era of middle management bonuses, achievable only by screwing the pilots / cabin crew needs to be bought into check. I have no problem with bonuses per se but not at the expense of fellow workers. I'm tired of management talk about teamwork and "our people" being the most important asset and then proceding to shaft the staff...... Cut the crap, start treating people with a bit of respect and recognising the Professionals for what they are.Only award bonuses to deserving people - and cut out the deadwood (which may have started to happen at easy today.......)

A4

[citizensmith]

Lucifer
Get with the program!
If you're gonna talk b*****ks then don't bother saying anything at all. You've already indirectly admitted you're scared of you're wife/partner so you wouldn't be much good to us on the picket line at Flybe.....not that it's ever going to happen.
If you followed the original thread you may start to understand that causing a little short term pain to the company....hurting them in the pocket...is what it's all about. Do you honestly think that if the schedule goes tits up today then they're gonna hire 350 new pilots tomorrow when they can't crew the aircraft with the crews they have now.
It's not selfish, it's called playing them at their own game.....Muppet

[Lucifer]

I hope you are more relaxed on the flightdeck.
I shall refrain from commenting back - needless to say that I have no fear of anyone and have more than a little financial acumen...unlike some.

Lucifer

[Hand Solo]

Am I alone in failing to see the connection between pilots striking to improve their conditions and making life harder for up and coming fATPLs? The aircraft will always need pilots. By preventing companies working us all to 900 hours without fail we increase the number of jobs available. By improving pay we improve the ability of the fATPLs to pay off their huge training debts. By resisting outsourcing of work to foreign carriers we increase the number of jobs based in the UK. These all sound like good things to me.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

cargo boy - My understanding of the big rise at Virgin is that it was actually last year's deal. From my conversations with a friend, who is a Virgin pilot, I understand the deal covering this coming year is actually only just above inflation. Nonetheless, the overall Virgin terms and conditions won by BALPA over the last few years are simply excellent and are testimony to the power of responsible union representation. Other airlines, including easyJet, can only look on in slight envy at the terms and conditions you enjoy.

I understand that Virgin has about 98% BALPA membership and I am told that easyJet has peaked at just under 80% - but I cannot verify that. When our troubles kicked off last year we were at nearer 50% and we got an offer less than RPI (2.5% and not 3.5% as was suggested earlier). Simply through the hard work of our CC and solid support from our pilots, a good deal was won. The 6% stated earlier is accurate in that it is your choice if you put it on the pension or not. There is a direct relationship between levels of union representation and the deals that arre finally won. I see the deal that we have won as only a starting point to a wholesale and comprehensive rethink of terms and conditions at the LCCs. We are competing in a completely different world to Virgin but it is nonetheless in everyone's interest that all BALPA-represented airlines fight a hard war.

[A and C]

Rules to win a strike

1. Don't strike unless it is the last resort
2. Use work to rule & no day off working as a tool ,it is the low cost option to the workforce
3. The threat of a strike is almost as good as a strike to bring pressure to the management
4. If you do strike use NO pickets, these are only of any use to stop the use of unskilled workers.
5. Dont use pickets! it just letts the management know that you have no money coming in.
6. Don't picket, get a temp job, drive a taxi or something because you are now in an economic war with the management
7. Don't picket even if you have no other job the management will think that you have some other form of income if you are not outside the gate!

[Re-Heat]

Am I alone in failing to see the connection between pilots striking to improve their conditions and making life harder for up and coming fATPLs? The aircraft will always need pilots. By preventing companies working us all to 900 hours without fail we increase the number of jobs available. By improving pay we improve the ability of the fATPLs to pay off their huge training debts. By resisting outsourcing of work to foreign carriers we increase the number of jobs based in the UK. These all sound like good things to me.

1) Company revenue stream is lost, lowering ability to pay any expenses including salaries, resulting in cutback to expansion plans and/or offshoring of jobs to non-union bases.
2) Salary base is higher for no increase in productivity (assuming you are at 900 hrs already), resulting in lower available cash for more salaries.
3) Reduction in working hours reduces productivity for company resulting in higher cost of their capital, resulting in diminished ability to expand to allow recruitment.

So although an operation not using 900 hours for all staff results in a requirement for more pilots to fly the existing fleet, it lowers the ability to expand beyond that existing fleet and provokes offshoring that you claim not to want.

Though it would be incorrect to suggest that 900 hours was designed either as a limit or is appropriate for the LH operations we now see, it is there and it would be naive to see it not used by whomever can use it. What would be more productive would be to promote the use of more scientific maxima that are not a hard limit that merges LH and SH requirements.

Cash is not on tap from a company.

[Hirsutesme]

No, cash is generated py passengers, carried by pilots.
The problem, as well as the many outlined above, is using CAP371 as a target, rather than a minima, allowed by the weakness of CAA, and lack of any political direction, and the "weakness" of pilots

[Re-Heat]

No, cash is generated py passengers, carried by pilots

So nobody else works in the airline then? Can't see what different you have to say than I, other than an exceptional misunderstanding of your position in the company as a pilot as its sole breadwinner - correct me if I am wrong.

[Hand Solo]

1) Company revenue stream is lost, lowering ability to pay any expenses including salaries, resulting in cutback to expansion plans and/or offshoring of jobs to non-union bases.
2) Salary base is higher for no increase in productivity (assuming you are at 900 hrs already), resulting in lower available cash for more salaries.
3) Reduction in working hours reduces productivity for company resulting in higher cost of their capital, resulting in diminished ability to expand to allow recruitment

So the whole thrust of your argument is that pilots can't be paid more because it'll hurt the companies ability to expand. Tell me you're BA management because thats exactly the line they trot out. It's not the employees job to fund the expansion of the company, it's the managements

So nobody else works in the airline then?

Au contraire! Too many people work in the airline! In BA we have a far higher number of staff per aircraft than our competitors, and that includes other 'innovative' airlines like Virgin. Its the other people in the airline who cost the money - the dead wood, the hangers on and the inept managers who cost us millions.

[Hirsutesme]

Originally Posted by Re-Heat

So nobody else works in the airline then? Can't see what different you have to say than I, other than an exceptional misunderstanding of your position in the company as a pilot as its sole breadwinner - correct me if I am wrong.

Of course not. This discussion was about pilots. Obviously other staff make a contribution.

However, pilots are in an unique position of strength, if they choose to exercise it.

[cargo boy]

cargo boy - My understanding of the big rise at Virgin is that it was actually last year's deal. From my conversations with a friend, who is a Virgin pilot, I understand the deal covering this coming year is actually only just above inflation.

Just had it confirmed and been shown the agreement document. In July the f/o hourly pay goes up 24% from £13.66 to £18.26. Basic pay goes up 2.5% in January and it's all pensionable. LoL goes up as I indicated. PHI covers both basic pay and hourly pay. There's a few other things but I think that as a 750 hour a year airline they have done pretty good this year again, considering that they get free food, uniform, 35+ days leave, day off payments if they want to help out, +15% from the company pension contribution, PHI, and days off down route that don't count towards their yearly days off.

A classic example of what a high Balpa membership and a CC that is working with the company to make it a win-win situation all around unlike some Mick airlines where you are really afraid of the boss and his henchmen and even thinking about collective bargaining is considered a heinous crime. Record profits just announced show that it can be done.

Good luck anyway and get your CV in as they seem to like ex-easyJet pilots from what I've heard.

[On_the_bug]

Originally Posted by Norman Stanley Fletcher

The legendary 5/2-5/4 system is universally unpopular and is being debated as we speak. The CC have placed before the company a number of demands which, if not met, will result in an escalation of the dispute. There is a widespread recognition among the pilots that the summer battle is lost and due to leave etc it may be another year before we have a sensible rostering agreement in place.

Excuse me for pointing out that it was your Company Council who recommended the "legendary" 5254 system in the first place! And you are saying it will be another year before you get a "sensible" agreement in place?

Perhaps NSF you have low expectations - 3.5% in real terms over two years is mediocre, would you not agree?

[Re-Heat]

So the whole thrust of your argument is that pilots can't be paid more because it'll hurt the companies ability to expand.

No - the pot is of a fixed size and your being paid more does not alone increase the size of the pot in any way through a concurrent productivity gain.

Au contraire! Too many people work in the airline! In BA we have a far higher number of staff per aircraft than our competitors, and that includes other 'innovative' airlines like Virgin. Its the other people in the airline who cost the money - the dead wood, the hangers on and the inept managers who cost us millions.

I think everyone knows that to be true - what is not true is that (a) pilots are the only productive element of the workforce - how do you think you would cope without IT integrating the GDSs who sell the tickets to the airline itself?, and (b) that industrial disputes from another sector would not equally stop airline operations.

Are you a Labour backbencher, or maybe RMT rather than BALPA?