British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action
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Apologies for intruding in to an essentially flight crew thread. I am sorry to hear of all these issues, triggers memories of what was in my opinion and that of my former colleagues appalling treatment by 'blue' from the engineering side. A year and a bit down the line of redundancy things are however considerably better for me now, but I still have a bit of a chip on my shoulder for good 'ol 'blue', which as far as I'm concerned was a great dissappointment. I have fond memories of Air UK and it's crews, as well as KLCuk, so I hope this is resolved to everyones satisfaction. Several things stick in my mind from those days though 1- being told that KLM taking over Air UK would not result in 'us' just becoming an Amsterdam feeder!,(yeah, right) and 2 - receiving a fax in the office out of the blue -terrible pun-sorry! (intended for KLC rep.) stating that in a few months time care of the Fokker's would be undertaken by Martinair (in other words, goodbye to our jobs! Which was nice.
Anway, it's not an Eng. thread, I'll get me coat.........
Anway, it's not an Eng. thread, I'll get me coat.........
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The selection process has been going on for a few weeks.
Comparatively few people have applied to join KLM (30 or so). Some have subsequently withdrawn their application, some have been accepted, a few have failed and several have yet to complete the selection.
Comparatively few people have applied to join KLM (30 or so). Some have subsequently withdrawn their application, some have been accepted, a few have failed and several have yet to complete the selection.
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ACCP is correct there are about 30 or so going through selection at the moment, there is a second round of applications in march which may see more KLCuk pilots apply. So far there have been some failures which is worrying, (you are suitable to captain our aircraft but not suitable to join our airline on equal terms ??? 
).
Pleased to say thatI have been successful and have joined mainline, however I dont think the grievences have been settled for the rest of the pilots left in KLC uk.
).Pleased to say thatI have been successful and have joined mainline, however I dont think the grievences have been settled for the rest of the pilots left in KLC uk.
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A couple more people have been rejected by KLM. This puts the failure rate at about 50%.
All the individuals concerned are Fokker 100 captains with a minimum of 8 or 9 years service with KLCuk. Knowing all of them, I cannot work out why one was chosen and another rejected. It seems a complete lottery.
Bearing this in mind I cannot imagine many people applying for the second round in March.
All the individuals concerned are Fokker 100 captains with a minimum of 8 or 9 years service with KLCuk. Knowing all of them, I cannot work out why one was chosen and another rejected. It seems a complete lottery.
Bearing this in mind I cannot imagine many people applying for the second round in March.
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"(you are suitable to captain our aircraft but not suitable to join our airline on equal terms ???) - precisely the same corporate arrogant mindset BACX pilots faced when applying for BA Mainline.
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I am afraid this goes back to the problems we have had with the Dutch since day 1. DISCRIMINATION, they are playing lip service to the You can join KLM Mainline offer.
They are making a token gesture in passing some,then refusing the rest. The percentage is well over 50 Percent. This includes IRE/TREs who have and are training the New Dutch entrance.
The quality of the people being turned down implies only one thing Your not Dutch your not wanted.
The whole attitude has changed since One of the initial members of BALPA who passed the selection proccess turn down the offer.
How can all these captains not be good enough for KLM Mainline, yet are suitable to fly KLM aircraft under a KLM AOC,taking KLM passengers.
Maybe they should include on there welcome aboard speach,I am not good enough to work for KLM but i can fly you.
The British pilots once again are being treated with contempt,this is a disgrace,Every Dutch pilot should hold there heads in shame.
I am embarassed to be part of such an organisation
They are making a token gesture in passing some,then refusing the rest. The percentage is well over 50 Percent. This includes IRE/TREs who have and are training the New Dutch entrance.
The quality of the people being turned down implies only one thing Your not Dutch your not wanted.
The whole attitude has changed since One of the initial members of BALPA who passed the selection proccess turn down the offer.
How can all these captains not be good enough for KLM Mainline, yet are suitable to fly KLM aircraft under a KLM AOC,taking KLM passengers.
Maybe they should include on there welcome aboard speach,I am not good enough to work for KLM but i can fly you.
The British pilots once again are being treated with contempt,this is a disgrace,Every Dutch pilot should hold there heads in shame.
I am embarassed to be part of such an organisation
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What is BALPA doing about this situation?
Nah! They'll chicken out, although maybe the KLM pilots will do more than just accept it without even a whimper.
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I am on dangerous ground here. But I would like to respond.
Almost by definition all pilots employed by either Transavia (80% owned by Air France/KLM), and Martinair (50% owned by Air France/KLM) have in the past been turned down by KLM mainline. The reasons are varied (from being too old (an issue back in the eighties), to not meeting the perceived KLM profile). It certainly doesn’t reflect on the quality of the people involved. These pilots have in the past flown KLM mainline passengers (on contracts or code shares), yet have not had the chance to transfer to KLM mainline (and the vast majority of these fine people are Dutch). As a foreigner and a Boeing 777 captain with KLM, I don’t feel discriminated against in the least. I did do the polite thing and became fluent in Dutch, and have been taking French courses (as these are my new owners, something most of my colleagues still haven’t grasped). Being the company with the best employment conditions in Holland, they can set their standards (simple supply/demand). Of the candidates that wish to join up with KLM mainline the company is free to take the ones they consider the best fit. It is the same proces these Transavia or Martinair pilots would have to go through. Some who try make it, some don't. We don’t need a 1000 pilots, we need only what is required. Any British colleagues are more than welcome to join me on the flight deck, and he won’t even have to speak Dutch to me. Racism is just plain brown smelly stuff produced by a bull, and is something only an idiot would imply.
Almost by definition all pilots employed by either Transavia (80% owned by Air France/KLM), and Martinair (50% owned by Air France/KLM) have in the past been turned down by KLM mainline. The reasons are varied (from being too old (an issue back in the eighties), to not meeting the perceived KLM profile). It certainly doesn’t reflect on the quality of the people involved. These pilots have in the past flown KLM mainline passengers (on contracts or code shares), yet have not had the chance to transfer to KLM mainline (and the vast majority of these fine people are Dutch). As a foreigner and a Boeing 777 captain with KLM, I don’t feel discriminated against in the least. I did do the polite thing and became fluent in Dutch, and have been taking French courses (as these are my new owners, something most of my colleagues still haven’t grasped). Being the company with the best employment conditions in Holland, they can set their standards (simple supply/demand). Of the candidates that wish to join up with KLM mainline the company is free to take the ones they consider the best fit. It is the same proces these Transavia or Martinair pilots would have to go through. Some who try make it, some don't. We don’t need a 1000 pilots, we need only what is required. Any British colleagues are more than welcome to join me on the flight deck, and he won’t even have to speak Dutch to me. Racism is just plain brown smelly stuff produced by a bull, and is something only an idiot would imply.
Last edited by Otterman; 21st Jan 2007 at 17:40.
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Hi Otterman,
you are right, the vast majority of the KLM pilots are not guilty of discrimination but KLM is i am afraid.
When cityhopper pilots were merged into KLM they did not have all of the problems that the UK pilots have, also it is not fair to compare a UK pilot to Martinair or Transavia, they do not fly in the same flightdeck as our KLM collegues to KLM sops. They may fly the routes now and again but on thier own AOC. Transavia and martinair have not had their aircraft merged into big blue also their companies continue to replace pilots who may leave / retire /die , KLC uk cannot, in 4 years the pilot force in KLCuk has reduced from 240 pilots (not including the BUZZ pilots) to todays 130, the 110 pilots positions lost have been and continue to be filled by new applicants to KLM who join on the KLM mainline seniority list, so british jobs are being slowly moved to holland. Let me ask you..... If for some reason Air France decide that you personally do not fit the Air France corporate profile therefore you can stay as a KLM captain but frozen on that fleet and no more Dutch contracted jobs into KLM only French, they will move the 777 fleet to france and combine it with the Air France fleet, you have to learn french Sops operate with Air France pilots on the flight deck of what was your aircraft and see no more recruitment into KLM at all and all the Dutch jobs are slowly moved to France do you think you would consider that fair?
I am sure the Air France pilots would treat you well , but as a group if the KLM pilots were treated the way we have been by Air France as a corporation then their would be hell to pay!!
When KLMuk was a wholly owned subsiduary of KLM recruiting its own pilots to crew its own aircraft there was NEVER any attempt to join the big blue.
KLM are guilty of discrimination to this group, what they and the KLM pilots are not guilty of is racism.
By the way are you Canadian? as that is the most common country I think Otters can be found :-)
you are right, the vast majority of the KLM pilots are not guilty of discrimination but KLM is i am afraid.
When cityhopper pilots were merged into KLM they did not have all of the problems that the UK pilots have, also it is not fair to compare a UK pilot to Martinair or Transavia, they do not fly in the same flightdeck as our KLM collegues to KLM sops. They may fly the routes now and again but on thier own AOC. Transavia and martinair have not had their aircraft merged into big blue also their companies continue to replace pilots who may leave / retire /die , KLC uk cannot, in 4 years the pilot force in KLCuk has reduced from 240 pilots (not including the BUZZ pilots) to todays 130, the 110 pilots positions lost have been and continue to be filled by new applicants to KLM who join on the KLM mainline seniority list, so british jobs are being slowly moved to holland. Let me ask you..... If for some reason Air France decide that you personally do not fit the Air France corporate profile therefore you can stay as a KLM captain but frozen on that fleet and no more Dutch contracted jobs into KLM only French, they will move the 777 fleet to france and combine it with the Air France fleet, you have to learn french Sops operate with Air France pilots on the flight deck of what was your aircraft and see no more recruitment into KLM at all and all the Dutch jobs are slowly moved to France do you think you would consider that fair?
I am sure the Air France pilots would treat you well , but as a group if the KLM pilots were treated the way we have been by Air France as a corporation then their would be hell to pay!!
When KLMuk was a wholly owned subsiduary of KLM recruiting its own pilots to crew its own aircraft there was NEVER any attempt to join the big blue.
KLM are guilty of discrimination to this group, what they and the KLM pilots are not guilty of is racism.
By the way are you Canadian? as that is the most common country I think Otters can be found :-)
Last edited by bluepilot; 22nd Jan 2007 at 08:37.
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I hope that a few more of you join, you might stop giving us others a load of grief for joining 4 years ago, and maybe then you might come and say hello to us when we dead head you to and from the UK!
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So there you go......... the selection process is completed and only twelve passed!!
Some very very good pilots have been rejected and given a hard time in the selection process. Then get a letter saying that they are not suitable to be KLM pilots. THEY ARE KLM CAPTAINS NOW!!!
Some very very good pilots have been rejected and given a hard time in the selection process. Then get a letter saying that they are not suitable to be KLM pilots. THEY ARE KLM CAPTAINS NOW!!!
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Blue Pilot you are wrong.
We are ONLY Klc Captains not good enough to fly for KLM!!!!!!!!
However we are allowed to train our KLM colleages. The whole selection process has been a farce. KLM have once again discriminated against the British pilots.
It was mention that they had moved the goal posts during the selection,they didnt move the goal posts they moved the pitch.
Our Dutch colleage was asked what do you think of the British pilots? What sort of question is that in an interview!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The first part of the interview was in Dutch even though they new we could not speak the language.
The list goes on
We are ONLY Klc Captains not good enough to fly for KLM!!!!!!!!
However we are allowed to train our KLM colleages. The whole selection process has been a farce. KLM have once again discriminated against the British pilots.
It was mention that they had moved the goal posts during the selection,they didnt move the goal posts they moved the pitch.
Our Dutch colleage was asked what do you think of the British pilots? What sort of question is that in an interview!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The first part of the interview was in Dutch even though they new we could not speak the language.
The list goes on