British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action
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Hi Flyburg
Thanx for your positive comments, just a small fact, KLMer is a KLM mainline pilot who transfered from a uk contract a few years ago.
You are absolutely correct there is and should never be any ill feelings between pilots working together who are represented by different unions, the pilots on the line are just victims of circumstance.
From my own point of view I have worked with my NL collegues for some years now and (with only one or two exceptions) have very much enjoyed the experience, anamosity on the flight deck is a CRM issue that cannot be allowed to continue.
I too look foward to us (uk) pilots being treated fairly so we can just get on with our lives and contribute to the bright future of KLM.
I back this industrial action all the way and feel sad that it has become necessary, I do feel however the Big BALPA and big VNV have used us as political pawns to further their own gains in the international arena and that is not acceptable. On a local level we need a deal that ensures a future for all and puts all this shame behind us, that does need the co-operation of the VNV , BALPA and KLM as all parties must be in agreement to move foward.
once again I thank you for your continued support.
Bluepilot
Thanx for your positive comments, just a small fact, KLMer is a KLM mainline pilot who transfered from a uk contract a few years ago.
You are absolutely correct there is and should never be any ill feelings between pilots working together who are represented by different unions, the pilots on the line are just victims of circumstance.
From my own point of view I have worked with my NL collegues for some years now and (with only one or two exceptions) have very much enjoyed the experience, anamosity on the flight deck is a CRM issue that cannot be allowed to continue.
I too look foward to us (uk) pilots being treated fairly so we can just get on with our lives and contribute to the bright future of KLM.
I back this industrial action all the way and feel sad that it has become necessary, I do feel however the Big BALPA and big VNV have used us as political pawns to further their own gains in the international arena and that is not acceptable. On a local level we need a deal that ensures a future for all and puts all this shame behind us, that does need the co-operation of the VNV , BALPA and KLM as all parties must be in agreement to move foward.
once again I thank you for your continued support.
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Its Not KLM Mainline this is about its about DISCRIMINATION of the UK pilots
I am afraid you are all going off down the wrong road here.
The industrial action ballot is about DISCRIMINATION of the UK pilots by the Dutch.
Mainline access, on 'fair and reasonable terms', is seen as a possible solution to stopping the discrimination that the KLM pilots are suffering, and have been suffering, for the last 3 years.
Of course there are many other options to solve the problem, - simply stop the discrimination but this would involve KLM then going to war with the VNV so who is the easiest to fight? Now the KLCuk pilots have decided enough is enough and are going to fight back. This action will no doubt cause and awful lot of embarrassment for the Dutch.
To stop the discrimination would involve a big change on both the side of KLCuk/KLC/KLM and the VNV. The many reasons for this discrimination by KLCuk/KLC/KLM is because of agreements with the VNV and pressure being applied by the VNV to insist that KLM stick to their agreements and therefore discriminate against the UK pilot workforce.
The areas of discrimination claimed are:-
Management jobs and Training jobs etc being given to VNV members and not Balpa members
VNV insisting that a minimum number of UK pilots will leave each year (and have a written agreement to guarantee these numbers will depart which is being stuck to by KLM).
VNV insisting that there will be no more recruitment into the UK company after November 2002 (hence the UK pilots will never get senior and can only ever achieve less seniority over time).
Different Remuneration Rates
Different Sick Pay Periods
Different employer pension contributions (KLCuk pay less into UK pilot’s pension fund (as a % of salary) than KLM pay into Dutch pilot’s pension fund) BUT KLCuk are looking to reduce the benefits for the UK pilots and hence pay in even less money
Different Career Structure
Refusal by KLM to recognise a current UK agreement for type equipment change at base (to 737). In doing so rebasing of all UK pilots with the associated moves for them and their families.
Restrictions on promotion to Captain for KLCuk pilots on a 2:1 ratio (2 KLM to 1 UK).
KLM make agreement with the VNV to allow Swedish pilots to operate aircraft and routes and pay pass over pay to the KLM pilots who are seen to suffer yet do not agree to any such payment to the UK pilots whose career has suffered.
Hopefully you will all begin to realise now what this is about and what has (and still is) going on.
The industrial action ballot is about DISCRIMINATION of the UK pilots by the Dutch.
Mainline access, on 'fair and reasonable terms', is seen as a possible solution to stopping the discrimination that the KLM pilots are suffering, and have been suffering, for the last 3 years.
Of course there are many other options to solve the problem, - simply stop the discrimination but this would involve KLM then going to war with the VNV so who is the easiest to fight? Now the KLCuk pilots have decided enough is enough and are going to fight back. This action will no doubt cause and awful lot of embarrassment for the Dutch.
To stop the discrimination would involve a big change on both the side of KLCuk/KLC/KLM and the VNV. The many reasons for this discrimination by KLCuk/KLC/KLM is because of agreements with the VNV and pressure being applied by the VNV to insist that KLM stick to their agreements and therefore discriminate against the UK pilot workforce.
The areas of discrimination claimed are:-
Management jobs and Training jobs etc being given to VNV members and not Balpa members
VNV insisting that a minimum number of UK pilots will leave each year (and have a written agreement to guarantee these numbers will depart which is being stuck to by KLM).
VNV insisting that there will be no more recruitment into the UK company after November 2002 (hence the UK pilots will never get senior and can only ever achieve less seniority over time).
Different Remuneration Rates
Different Sick Pay Periods
Different employer pension contributions (KLCuk pay less into UK pilot’s pension fund (as a % of salary) than KLM pay into Dutch pilot’s pension fund) BUT KLCuk are looking to reduce the benefits for the UK pilots and hence pay in even less money
Different Career Structure
Refusal by KLM to recognise a current UK agreement for type equipment change at base (to 737). In doing so rebasing of all UK pilots with the associated moves for them and their families.
Restrictions on promotion to Captain for KLCuk pilots on a 2:1 ratio (2 KLM to 1 UK).
KLM make agreement with the VNV to allow Swedish pilots to operate aircraft and routes and pay pass over pay to the KLM pilots who are seen to suffer yet do not agree to any such payment to the UK pilots whose career has suffered.
Hopefully you will all begin to realise now what this is about and what has (and still is) going on.
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Oops,
My sincere apologies to KLMér. I guess I was finally reacting to the negative posts and responded to the last post I read. KLMér has actually been very levelheaded and objective about the situation.
I guess I was refering to a lot of the negative posts in the past and yes from you to Blue pilot( gotta stay fair and consequent). However, from your last post, I am glad we are not that far apart as I thought.
Once again, I wish the UKérs a good and fair deal.
My sincere apologies to KLMér. I guess I was finally reacting to the negative posts and responded to the last post I read. KLMér has actually been very levelheaded and objective about the situation.
I guess I was refering to a lot of the negative posts in the past and yes from you to Blue pilot( gotta stay fair and consequent). However, from your last post, I am glad we are not that far apart as I thought.
Once again, I wish the UKérs a good and fair deal.
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Originally Posted by flyburg
Okay,I guess I was refering to autofeather!!
Does it hurt?
I refer to my post made above;-
This action will no doubt cause and awful lot of embarrassment for the Dutch.
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Autofeather lays out the background quite well, IMHO, bearing in mind that his is one side of the story only. To put things in context, it is worth noting that KLM sold the entire existence of KLCuk and the UK pilots therein, to the VNV, as a temporary holding company, only in existence till all the pilots went to Buzz.
Nevertheless, Autofeather said.........
So, what do you suggest?
That the VNV allow KLM to back out of legal agreements?....and where will that end? should they be allowed to back out of any agreement they choose, or only this one?
That the VNV should initiate and seek to make new updated agreements on behalf of the UK Pilots (who are not VNV members)? Is this not what BALPA should have done immediately Buzz was sold?....but are now doing to stern resistance from KLM?
Face it, the VNV is doing its job, as it owes its members. It is BALPA's doing its own job in the same good way that will eventually force KLM to return to the negotiating table with the VNV and update or delete any agreements that are discriminatory to the UK pilots.
Nevertheless, Autofeather said.........
The many reasons for this discrimination by KLCuk/KLC/KLM is because of agreements with the VNV and pressure being applied by the VNV to insist that KLM stick to their agreements........
That the VNV allow KLM to back out of legal agreements?....and where will that end? should they be allowed to back out of any agreement they choose, or only this one?
That the VNV should initiate and seek to make new updated agreements on behalf of the UK Pilots (who are not VNV members)? Is this not what BALPA should have done immediately Buzz was sold?....but are now doing to stern resistance from KLM?
Face it, the VNV is doing its job, as it owes its members. It is BALPA's doing its own job in the same good way that will eventually force KLM to return to the negotiating table with the VNV and update or delete any agreements that are discriminatory to the UK pilots.
Last edited by Ray D'Avecta; 20th May 2006 at 20:59.
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Originally Posted by Ray D'Avecta
That the VNV allow KLM to back out of legal agreements?....
The reduction of KLCuk pilots agreed was written with the expected outflow of KLCuk pilots to Buzz. KLM then sold Buzz (and royally stuffed all those Buzz pilots as well) therefore KLM should, if it was honourable, approach the VNV to buy out this agreement.
For the record I agree that the VNV are doing a very good job it seems for their members, Balpa need to stand up and fight as well and it seems that at long last they are getting their teeth into this one. It seems that Balpa also have excellent support from the members as well (based on the KLCuk pilots bulletin board postings anyway).
This is not a fight between the KLCuk/KLM pilots or Balpa/VNV, it is a fight between Balpa and KLM and this will of course bring in the VNV as they run KLM it would seem.
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If you are looking for an example of how a takeover should be done then look at British Airways buying out of Cityflyer.
If you are looking at how a takeover should not be done then look at KLM's buying out of KLMuk.
The difference is that the former was a UK company taking over a UK company.
For info, the Cityflyer pilots, quite naturally, did not carry over their Date of Joining to British Airways. I don't believe the KLMuk pilots expect, or even have any plans to try, to carry over their Date of Joining.
If you are looking at how a takeover should not be done then look at KLM's buying out of KLMuk.
The difference is that the former was a UK company taking over a UK company.
For info, the Cityflyer pilots, quite naturally, did not carry over their Date of Joining to British Airways. I don't believe the KLMuk pilots expect, or even have any plans to try, to carry over their Date of Joining.
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Autofeather, I’ll react to your points but I’m afraid it’s like peeing into the wind.
You are constantly twisting the facts. I’’l give it try
”
Quote:
Management jobs and Training jobs etc being given to VNV members and not Balpa members.
This is simply not true. Every division will have two persons, one duth one british. This has been disseminated by NOTAC. If there is a lack of interest of british pilots klm can't help that but in the mean time there are plenty british pilots working in the office
VNV insisting that a minimum number of UK pilots will leave each year (and have a written agreement to guarantee these numbers will depart which is being stuck to by KLM).
This is true and not true. The deal was made when buzz as still around and it was understood that pilots would flow through to Buzz. NEITHER THE COMPANY NOR VNV HAS ENFORCED THAT RULE. NOBODY HAS BEEN FORCED TO LEAVE!!!!
Quote:
Refusal by KLM to recognise a current UK agreement for type equipment change at base (to 737). In doing so rebasing of all UK pilots with the associated moves for them and their families.
Dude, what planet are you living on. You work for an airline, changes happen all the time.I would love to live in Nice, maybe I can start an industrial action to force KLM to base a B737 there, YEAH RIGHT
QUOTE:
Restrictions on promotion to Captain for KLCuk pilots on a 2:1 ratio (2 KLM to 1 UK).
This is a prime example of twisting the facts. Before the integration there were only 70 captain slots on the fokker 100. So if no integration would have taken place and UK would not have expanded that would have been the total number of captains on the FK100. Now, due to the integration those slots have actually increased because any expansion, the new slots created where awarded 2:1. seems fair to me as the ration KLC/UK FK70/FK100 was 2:1. Now as you wellknow, and here you are twisting the facts, due to training difficulties with KLC, more slots than would have been awarded based on 2:1 where given to UK pilots.
Keep up the ranting and you will even loose the support of pilots sympathetic to your case
greetings
You are constantly twisting the facts. I’’l give it try
”
Quote:
Management jobs and Training jobs etc being given to VNV members and not Balpa members.
This is simply not true. Every division will have two persons, one duth one british. This has been disseminated by NOTAC. If there is a lack of interest of british pilots klm can't help that but in the mean time there are plenty british pilots working in the office
VNV insisting that a minimum number of UK pilots will leave each year (and have a written agreement to guarantee these numbers will depart which is being stuck to by KLM).
This is true and not true. The deal was made when buzz as still around and it was understood that pilots would flow through to Buzz. NEITHER THE COMPANY NOR VNV HAS ENFORCED THAT RULE. NOBODY HAS BEEN FORCED TO LEAVE!!!!
Quote:
Refusal by KLM to recognise a current UK agreement for type equipment change at base (to 737). In doing so rebasing of all UK pilots with the associated moves for them and their families.
Dude, what planet are you living on. You work for an airline, changes happen all the time.I would love to live in Nice, maybe I can start an industrial action to force KLM to base a B737 there, YEAH RIGHT
QUOTE:
Restrictions on promotion to Captain for KLCuk pilots on a 2:1 ratio (2 KLM to 1 UK).
This is a prime example of twisting the facts. Before the integration there were only 70 captain slots on the fokker 100. So if no integration would have taken place and UK would not have expanded that would have been the total number of captains on the FK100. Now, due to the integration those slots have actually increased because any expansion, the new slots created where awarded 2:1. seems fair to me as the ration KLC/UK FK70/FK100 was 2:1. Now as you wellknow, and here you are twisting the facts, due to training difficulties with KLC, more slots than would have been awarded based on 2:1 where given to UK pilots.
Keep up the ranting and you will even loose the support of pilots sympathetic to your case
greetings
Last edited by flyburg; 20th May 2006 at 21:51.
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Agreements that are discriminatory.......
therefore KLM should, if it was honourable, approach the VNV
Cuillin,
If you are looking for an example of how a takeover should be done then look at British Airways buying out of Cityflyer
These are some of the matters arising right now in the KLM/UK mess.
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I will take the trouble to answer you points, and will not 'twist' anything as you suggest. You do seem to be somewhere near the truth, but not quite.
What we must remember here is this is not a fight between us personally, or indeed a fight between Balpa and the VNV. It is the UK pilots wanting to know if they have a future in their current position. They wish to feel valued for what they have brought to the company (almost 2000 years of loyal service between them) and wish to have a worthwhile career just like you enjoy. If KLM don’t want the UK pilots then let them come clean, be honest, and offer a fair payout and let the UK guys move on. If not then let us have a future, a fair future, one without discrimination and one we can work with and move onward.
Personally we are obviously looking at this from two different angles and therefore will interpret the situation completely differently. So please, don’t accuse me of twisting the facts, I have absolutely nothing to benefit from doing so, accept what I say as my view point and then please let us have your own view point and then discuss the differences as would be expected from the professional people that we are.
Indeed each division does have two persons, one Dutch and one British (almost). The majority of the division of these jobs is senior = Dutch, junior = British. Even though the Notac suggested that it would be senior=Dutch in one division and in the other division it would be Senior=British.
Another management position was offered to a UK pilot as he was seen as the best suitable candidate for the Job, Only then he had the job offer withdrawn as the VNV did not agree with a UK pilot holding such a position in the company.
Indeed you are correct, however what you failed to mention was over 100 UK pilots have left as they have been treated so badly (aka Fokker 50 training and checking, latest rebasing excercise) - what will the next 'incentive' be that is offered by KLC management to the KLCuk pilots to 'assist' them to leave?
The point here is that the UK pilots have an agreement that states they can stay in the base they are currently in and be trained into the new type that is operated out of that base. KLM changed the type and did not stick to this agreement.
If this was a VNV agreement I think it would have been followed, dont you?
You are misinformed. There were 85 Captains positions when KLMuk pilots were TUPE transferred to KLCuk.
You are assuming had the UK ‘not expanded’ well we can all make assumptions - if KLM had carried on with their plans and promises made to the KLMuk pilots then they would all be Captains now not just 10 more of us 3 years later. (There are now 95 in total – considering a lot have left and or retired its not that much expansion is it?).
If KLM had been open and honest to the KLCuk guys about their futures and given them a ‘choice’ then more than likely even more of them would have moved on and more than likely more of us would have been Captains but with a different employer by now? – Maybe they would all be KLM contracted commands by now?
Who knows, times have moved on and we are where we are – one thing is for sure it has to be resolved for everyone’s sake as it will affect us all if this strike goes ahead – passenger numbers, share price, court cases, the list goes on and on.
The ratio 2:1 was not correct with regard to number of pilots in seat/seats in aircraft/airframes at the time of integration but that is yet another issue and one that we could argue about all night. Come to think of it why are we going on about this so late on a Saturday night?
We are told the current 2:1 figures are still running within the agreed boundaries and therefore UK pilots have not had more slots than would have normally been the case – which I believe is what you are suggesting?
Finally, and one for thought, if the strike does go ahead and Balpa calls under the IFALPA rulings for mutual assistance from the VNV will you and your Dutch contracted colleagues support your UK colleagues?
Goede nacht
What we must remember here is this is not a fight between us personally, or indeed a fight between Balpa and the VNV. It is the UK pilots wanting to know if they have a future in their current position. They wish to feel valued for what they have brought to the company (almost 2000 years of loyal service between them) and wish to have a worthwhile career just like you enjoy. If KLM don’t want the UK pilots then let them come clean, be honest, and offer a fair payout and let the UK guys move on. If not then let us have a future, a fair future, one without discrimination and one we can work with and move onward.
Personally we are obviously looking at this from two different angles and therefore will interpret the situation completely differently. So please, don’t accuse me of twisting the facts, I have absolutely nothing to benefit from doing so, accept what I say as my view point and then please let us have your own view point and then discuss the differences as would be expected from the professional people that we are.
Originally Posted by flyburg
Management jobs and Training jobs etc being given to VNV members and not Balpa members.
This is simply not true. Every division will have two persons, one duth one british. This has been disseminated by NOTAC. If there is a lack of interest of british pilots klm can't help that but in the mean time there are plenty british pilots working in the office
This is simply not true. Every division will have two persons, one duth one british. This has been disseminated by NOTAC. If there is a lack of interest of british pilots klm can't help that but in the mean time there are plenty british pilots working in the office
Another management position was offered to a UK pilot as he was seen as the best suitable candidate for the Job, Only then he had the job offer withdrawn as the VNV did not agree with a UK pilot holding such a position in the company.
Originally Posted by flyburg
VNV insisting that a minimum number of UK pilots will leave each year (and have a written agreement to guarantee these numbers will depart which is being stuck to by KLM).
This is true and not true. The deal was made when buzz as still around and it was understood that pilots would flow through to Buzz. NEITHER THE COMPANY NOR VNV HAS ENFORCED THAT RULE. NOBODY HAS BEEN FORCED TO LEAVE!!!!
This is true and not true. The deal was made when buzz as still around and it was understood that pilots would flow through to Buzz. NEITHER THE COMPANY NOR VNV HAS ENFORCED THAT RULE. NOBODY HAS BEEN FORCED TO LEAVE!!!!
Originally Posted by flyburg
Refusal by KLM to recognise a current UK agreement for type equipment change at base (to 737). In doing so rebasing of all UK pilots with the associated moves for them and their families.
Dude, what planet are you living on. You work for an airline, changes happen all the time.I would love to live in Nice, maybe I can start an industrial action to force KLM to base a B737 there, YEAH RIGHT
Dude, what planet are you living on. You work for an airline, changes happen all the time.I would love to live in Nice, maybe I can start an industrial action to force KLM to base a B737 there, YEAH RIGHT
If this was a VNV agreement I think it would have been followed, dont you?
Originally Posted by flyburg
Restrictions on promotion to Captain for KLCuk pilots on a 2:1 ratio (2 KLM to 1 UK).
This is a prime example of twisting the facts. Before the integration there were only 70 captain slots on the fokker 100. So if no integration would have taken place and UK would not have expanded that would have been the total number of captains on the FK100. Now, due to the integration those slots have actually increased because any expansion, the new slots created where awarded 2:1. seems fair to me as the ration KLC/UK FK70/FK100 was 2:1. Now as you wellknow, and here you are twisting the facts, due to training difficulties with KLC, more slots than would have been awarded based on 2:1 where given to UK pilots.
Keep up the ranting and you will even loose the support of pilots sympathetic to your case
This is a prime example of twisting the facts. Before the integration there were only 70 captain slots on the fokker 100. So if no integration would have taken place and UK would not have expanded that would have been the total number of captains on the FK100. Now, due to the integration those slots have actually increased because any expansion, the new slots created where awarded 2:1. seems fair to me as the ration KLC/UK FK70/FK100 was 2:1. Now as you wellknow, and here you are twisting the facts, due to training difficulties with KLC, more slots than would have been awarded based on 2:1 where given to UK pilots.
Keep up the ranting and you will even loose the support of pilots sympathetic to your case
You are assuming had the UK ‘not expanded’ well we can all make assumptions - if KLM had carried on with their plans and promises made to the KLMuk pilots then they would all be Captains now not just 10 more of us 3 years later. (There are now 95 in total – considering a lot have left and or retired its not that much expansion is it?).
If KLM had been open and honest to the KLCuk guys about their futures and given them a ‘choice’ then more than likely even more of them would have moved on and more than likely more of us would have been Captains but with a different employer by now? – Maybe they would all be KLM contracted commands by now?
Who knows, times have moved on and we are where we are – one thing is for sure it has to be resolved for everyone’s sake as it will affect us all if this strike goes ahead – passenger numbers, share price, court cases, the list goes on and on.
The ratio 2:1 was not correct with regard to number of pilots in seat/seats in aircraft/airframes at the time of integration but that is yet another issue and one that we could argue about all night. Come to think of it why are we going on about this so late on a Saturday night?
We are told the current 2:1 figures are still running within the agreed boundaries and therefore UK pilots have not had more slots than would have normally been the case – which I believe is what you are suggesting?
Finally, and one for thought, if the strike does go ahead and Balpa calls under the IFALPA rulings for mutual assistance from the VNV will you and your Dutch contracted colleagues support your UK colleagues?
Goede nacht
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Am not fully up to speed on this, but did the cityflyer captains carry their commands across to BA? and do cityflyer pilots not have to go through the full application and selection process to get into mainline?
Those joining BA from Cityflyer as a result of the takeover did not have to undergo any further selection.
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Dear Autofeather,
I'm glad you changed the tone of your reply. I'm afraid though we still disagree on the facts but we can go round and round about that all night long.
On your last question though.
This I find very difficult. First of all as previously stated I sincerely hope you get a good and fair deal.
If Balpa cannot get a deal with KLM and has to resort to industrial action, then yes, I fully expect the VNV to advise it's members to support that action. I will be the first to picket!!!
It all depends on the deal the UK pilots want though. Depending on the demands. I gave an example of what I thought would be fair. I could be that you have even more demands, demands I did not think about and that are still fair.
However!! It could be that UK pilots have demands that are to the detriment of KLM pilots. In that case, unfortunately it would be BALPA againt VNV. Of course I would side with VNV (let their be no misunderstanding, BALPA has an obligation to you, VNV to dutch pilots). Simirlarly, BALPA represents alot of british pilots, sometimes even competing pilots,how do the different groups deal with that. As an american example look at AA and TWA. One was represented by an in house union and the other one by ALPA. How did all the other US airlines react when they had a disagreement??
I heard an example of the recent request from the VNV to back the dutch CHC pilots by british pilots. However the beef was between the CHC pilots and their company. Had that beef been between the dutch CHC pilots and for example british pilots that would have been completely different.
I really hope you can see the difference.
I really do back any problems you have with KLM, however when you start making demands that are detrimental to klm pilots, that's an entirly diferent case. then both unions would fight for the best posible deal for their own members. How could they possibly request each other assistence in an industrialaction that would adversely affect it's own members.
To think or expect otherwise is naief.
Greetings
I'm glad you changed the tone of your reply. I'm afraid though we still disagree on the facts but we can go round and round about that all night long.
On your last question though.
This I find very difficult. First of all as previously stated I sincerely hope you get a good and fair deal.
If Balpa cannot get a deal with KLM and has to resort to industrial action, then yes, I fully expect the VNV to advise it's members to support that action. I will be the first to picket!!!
It all depends on the deal the UK pilots want though. Depending on the demands. I gave an example of what I thought would be fair. I could be that you have even more demands, demands I did not think about and that are still fair.
However!! It could be that UK pilots have demands that are to the detriment of KLM pilots. In that case, unfortunately it would be BALPA againt VNV. Of course I would side with VNV (let their be no misunderstanding, BALPA has an obligation to you, VNV to dutch pilots). Simirlarly, BALPA represents alot of british pilots, sometimes even competing pilots,how do the different groups deal with that. As an american example look at AA and TWA. One was represented by an in house union and the other one by ALPA. How did all the other US airlines react when they had a disagreement??
I heard an example of the recent request from the VNV to back the dutch CHC pilots by british pilots. However the beef was between the CHC pilots and their company. Had that beef been between the dutch CHC pilots and for example british pilots that would have been completely different.
I really hope you can see the difference.
I really do back any problems you have with KLM, however when you start making demands that are detrimental to klm pilots, that's an entirly diferent case. then both unions would fight for the best posible deal for their own members. How could they possibly request each other assistence in an industrialaction that would adversely affect it's own members.
To think or expect otherwise is naief.
Greetings
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It is the view of "detremental to KLM pilots" that is interesting.
1. If a Uk pilot joins the senioirty list it will affect a Dutch pilot who hasnt even joined yet is one I have heard. ( and his child that will join that is not yet born)
2. If a uk pilot joins KLM and retains his curent position that is unfair to a klm pilot, is another.
Basically at the moment the only thing we are being offered is to join KLM at the bottom and retrain into the position that the seniority allows, ie a 15 year jet capatin would be demoted to an f/o on the Fokker 70 if lucky or a turboprop position. This forgets the fact that we came into KLM bringing approx 25 aircraft ( I forget exactly how many).
If we dont join KLM we stay exactly where we are as a jet captain / fo until they have a convienient time to get rid of us.
Not all the pilots were expected to leave to Buzz several wanted to carry on feeding amsterdam. AS mentioned earlier over 100 pilots have felt forced to leave so the expected loss has all but happened.
The VNV / KLM have an agreement that guarentees that pilots will leave KLM uk at an agreed rate!!!!!!
The arguement is that that would only be illegal if it was used, so if the pilots are forced to leave by themsleves, no law is broken,, get the idea...of what we have been going thorugh.
We dont want much, put us on the bottom of the list , leave our present rates of pay / base, and let us stay where we are until we our seniority allows us to bid elsewhere.
How can that hurt anyone in KLM?
1. If a Uk pilot joins the senioirty list it will affect a Dutch pilot who hasnt even joined yet is one I have heard. ( and his child that will join that is not yet born)
2. If a uk pilot joins KLM and retains his curent position that is unfair to a klm pilot, is another.
Basically at the moment the only thing we are being offered is to join KLM at the bottom and retrain into the position that the seniority allows, ie a 15 year jet capatin would be demoted to an f/o on the Fokker 70 if lucky or a turboprop position. This forgets the fact that we came into KLM bringing approx 25 aircraft ( I forget exactly how many).
If we dont join KLM we stay exactly where we are as a jet captain / fo until they have a convienient time to get rid of us.
Not all the pilots were expected to leave to Buzz several wanted to carry on feeding amsterdam. AS mentioned earlier over 100 pilots have felt forced to leave so the expected loss has all but happened.
The VNV / KLM have an agreement that guarentees that pilots will leave KLM uk at an agreed rate!!!!!!
The arguement is that that would only be illegal if it was used, so if the pilots are forced to leave by themsleves, no law is broken,, get the idea...of what we have been going thorugh.
We dont want much, put us on the bottom of the list , leave our present rates of pay / base, and let us stay where we are until we our seniority allows us to bid elsewhere.
How can that hurt anyone in KLM?
Last edited by freddyfokker; 21st May 2006 at 10:48.
Captain K.P. (now in de heel groote vliegtuig?). Goede morgen.
Good points. Can't contact from here with normal e-mail, and very busy before vacation
(non-stop to quiche-land, instead of AMS).
Will holler soon.
Tot ziens,
"Steam-gauge", van de "$^&is hoofdstad". Smaklijke eten (rijstafel) and lekker slapen,
M.V.Z.
Good points. Can't contact from here with normal e-mail, and very busy before vacation
(non-stop to quiche-land, instead of AMS). Will holler soon.
Tot ziens,
"Steam-gauge", van de "$^&is hoofdstad". Smaklijke eten (rijstafel) and lekker slapen,
M.V.Z.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Latest VNV newsflash to all it'smembers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Situatie KLC uk
De vliegers van KLC uk leven al geruime tijd in onmin met het bedrijf. Een groot deel van de onvrede komt voort uit de uitzichtloosheid zoals de Engelsen die ervaren en de manier waarop de bedrijfsleiding met hen omgaat. Vanzelfsprekend probeert de VNV hier een vinger aan de pols te houden. Een oplossing lijkt te zijn het bieden van een nieuwe mogelijkheid aan de KLC uk-vliegers om in dienst te treden bij KLM. Hiermee zou nieuw perspectief ontstaan en wordt men onderdeel van het grotere KLM-geheel. De voorwaarden waaronder dit zou moeten gebeuren houdt KLM en Balpa (de Engelse vakbond van KLC uk) echter ver uiteen. Als meest recente ontwikkeling heeft KLM de KLC uk-collega’s individueel aangeschreven met een aanbod om bij KLM in dienst te treden. Omdat er over dit voorstel geen overeenstemming bestaat lijken beide partijen af te stevenen op een conflict.
Half mei hebben Balpa en VNV met elkaar gesproken om te bezien of er mogelijkheden zijn om de voorwaarden van het in dienst treden bij KLM acceptabeler te maken voor de Engelsen. De oplossingen zouden namelijk vooral liggen op terreinen waarover de VNV zeggenschap heeft. Mits eventuele nadelen voor KLM-vliegers van de gekozen oplossingen gecompenseerd worden, heeft de VNV de bereidheid om hieraan mee te werken. Van KLM wordt dan verwacht dat zij in het belang van een gezonde situatie binnen de regio-operatie deze compensatie verzorgt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I know, since most UK pilots have worked here for more than a decade a translation is not needed. Since all the UK pilots expect normal career opportunities without discrimation they have at least strived to have conversational mastery of the language of their employer of the last decade so it shouldn’t be a problem to read the text.
Sorry Autofeather, I couldn’t resist(little bit of sarcasm is intended). Below is a translation witch I made to the best of my ability. I believe it is fairly accurate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Situation KLC UK
The pilots of KLC have for a considerable time been at unease with the company. A lot of the problems stem from the lack of prospective the KLCUK pilots have. Naturally, the VNV tries to stay involved.
One of the solutions appear to allow the KC UK pilots to join KLM. This would offer them new career perspectives and join the overall KLM-AF group. The conditions of joining however still keeps BALPA and KLM miles apart. KLM has, as part of their most recent proposal, proposed, in writing, to individual KLC UK pilots an offer of employment to KLM. As both parties cannot reach an agreement on the conditions of the proposal both parties seem to head for an conflict.
In may, both BALPA and VNV have met to see if there were possibilities to make the offer of conditions of employment more acceptable to KLC UK pilots. It appears that solutions would mainly be in the area where VNV has responsibilities to it’s members. VNV’s official position is that as long as their members are compensated for any negative effect these solutions may have they are fully prepared to cooperate.
VNV will, in the interest of a healthy regional operation, cooperate fully as long as KLM is the one that provides compensation to it’s members.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I believe this is a good example of what I have been saying all along. VNV has a responsibility to it’s members, but they are willing to cooperate with BALPA in the interest of the UK pilots.
I rest my case and give the stage to autofeather who will undoubtely explain this as yet another example of how VNV is to blame for all the misfortune the UK pilots has befallen!!
Once again though, I wonder if BALPA would be so lenient, where the situation reversed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Situatie KLC uk
De vliegers van KLC uk leven al geruime tijd in onmin met het bedrijf. Een groot deel van de onvrede komt voort uit de uitzichtloosheid zoals de Engelsen die ervaren en de manier waarop de bedrijfsleiding met hen omgaat. Vanzelfsprekend probeert de VNV hier een vinger aan de pols te houden. Een oplossing lijkt te zijn het bieden van een nieuwe mogelijkheid aan de KLC uk-vliegers om in dienst te treden bij KLM. Hiermee zou nieuw perspectief ontstaan en wordt men onderdeel van het grotere KLM-geheel. De voorwaarden waaronder dit zou moeten gebeuren houdt KLM en Balpa (de Engelse vakbond van KLC uk) echter ver uiteen. Als meest recente ontwikkeling heeft KLM de KLC uk-collega’s individueel aangeschreven met een aanbod om bij KLM in dienst te treden. Omdat er over dit voorstel geen overeenstemming bestaat lijken beide partijen af te stevenen op een conflict.
Half mei hebben Balpa en VNV met elkaar gesproken om te bezien of er mogelijkheden zijn om de voorwaarden van het in dienst treden bij KLM acceptabeler te maken voor de Engelsen. De oplossingen zouden namelijk vooral liggen op terreinen waarover de VNV zeggenschap heeft. Mits eventuele nadelen voor KLM-vliegers van de gekozen oplossingen gecompenseerd worden, heeft de VNV de bereidheid om hieraan mee te werken. Van KLM wordt dan verwacht dat zij in het belang van een gezonde situatie binnen de regio-operatie deze compensatie verzorgt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I know, since most UK pilots have worked here for more than a decade a translation is not needed. Since all the UK pilots expect normal career opportunities without discrimation they have at least strived to have conversational mastery of the language of their employer of the last decade so it shouldn’t be a problem to read the text.
Sorry Autofeather, I couldn’t resist(little bit of sarcasm is intended). Below is a translation witch I made to the best of my ability. I believe it is fairly accurate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Situation KLC UK
The pilots of KLC have for a considerable time been at unease with the company. A lot of the problems stem from the lack of prospective the KLCUK pilots have. Naturally, the VNV tries to stay involved.
One of the solutions appear to allow the KC UK pilots to join KLM. This would offer them new career perspectives and join the overall KLM-AF group. The conditions of joining however still keeps BALPA and KLM miles apart. KLM has, as part of their most recent proposal, proposed, in writing, to individual KLC UK pilots an offer of employment to KLM. As both parties cannot reach an agreement on the conditions of the proposal both parties seem to head for an conflict.
In may, both BALPA and VNV have met to see if there were possibilities to make the offer of conditions of employment more acceptable to KLC UK pilots. It appears that solutions would mainly be in the area where VNV has responsibilities to it’s members. VNV’s official position is that as long as their members are compensated for any negative effect these solutions may have they are fully prepared to cooperate.
VNV will, in the interest of a healthy regional operation, cooperate fully as long as KLM is the one that provides compensation to it’s members.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I believe this is a good example of what I have been saying all along. VNV has a responsibility to it’s members, but they are willing to cooperate with BALPA in the interest of the UK pilots.
I rest my case and give the stage to autofeather who will undoubtely explain this as yet another example of how VNV is to blame for all the misfortune the UK pilots has befallen!!
Once again though, I wonder if BALPA would be so lenient, where the situation reversed
Last edited by flyburg; 22nd May 2006 at 19:41.
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Hi flyburg
Thanx for that information, its nice to see things from the other side, although i do find your last comment about "Once again though, I wonder if BALPA would be so lenient, where the situation reversed" a little provocative. This is not about you and us or who has the better union or my Dad is better than your Dad, this is about 140 peoples lives and careers.
As i said in a previous post i did feel that big balpa and big VNV were using these people as political pawns. You and I as line pilots need to be above this and strive for not only what is fair but a harmonious working enviroment.
It is up to us to show our respective unions the way foward, after all we are the members who pay the money! and we have to live with the concequences.
Thanx for that information, its nice to see things from the other side, although i do find your last comment about "Once again though, I wonder if BALPA would be so lenient, where the situation reversed" a little provocative. This is not about you and us or who has the better union or my Dad is better than your Dad, this is about 140 peoples lives and careers.
As i said in a previous post i did feel that big balpa and big VNV were using these people as political pawns. You and I as line pilots need to be above this and strive for not only what is fair but a harmonious working enviroment.
It is up to us to show our respective unions the way foward, after all we are the members who pay the money! and we have to live with the concequences.
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Hi bluepilot,
Yes, you are right. I guess that was a little emotion fom my side, with the constant VNV blaming ( and in turn it's members). What I did try to convey is that there are always two sides to a dispute and I tried to give a different perspective by giving the example of how BALPA would deal with the situaton where it reversed.
I won't do it anymore.
Seems though that newsflash was good news, good luck
Yes, you are right. I guess that was a little emotion fom my side, with the constant VNV blaming ( and in turn it's members). What I did try to convey is that there are always two sides to a dispute and I tried to give a different perspective by giving the example of how BALPA would deal with the situaton where it reversed.
I won't do it anymore.
Seems though that newsflash was good news, good luck
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Klink
you are a disgrace to our industry. In times of trouble it is up to every pilot to look after his or her colleage. People who are willing to break offical picket lines within our industry should be blacklisted from every airline. We have enough problems fending off management trying to erode our termsand conditions we DONT need scabs
you are a disgrace to our industry. In times of trouble it is up to every pilot to look after his or her colleage. People who are willing to break offical picket lines within our industry should be blacklisted from every airline. We have enough problems fending off management trying to erode our termsand conditions we DONT need scabs