Balpa Or The IPA which is better?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: london
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've spent the last week. speaking to people in the industry and talking to members in both camps. I've decided to opt for the IPA/IPF. Although I've taken onboard what the members of Balpa have said in here, when speaking members of Balpa who were not activists just members of balpa, they have told me that if the IPA/IPF had recognition in their particular airline they would rather be members of the IPA/IPF.
I've also been on the IPA/IPF website and it seems that a lot of the things Balpa members have said on this thread have been incorrect about the IPA/IPF.
When I phone the IPA/IPF and requested information to be sent to me in the post, it turned up the next day. When I phoned Balpa and asked for information to be sent to me I had to wait 2 weeks and nothing turned up 4 telephone calls later, and I'm still waiting!
After the IPA/IPF had sent the information through to me they followed it up with a telephone call and answered all the questions that I had.
I'm sure Balpa offer a great service, but the IPA/IPF proved to me that I wasn't just a revenue stream!
Thanks for all your advice.
I've also been on the IPA/IPF website and it seems that a lot of the things Balpa members have said on this thread have been incorrect about the IPA/IPF.
When I phone the IPA/IPF and requested information to be sent to me in the post, it turned up the next day. When I phoned Balpa and asked for information to be sent to me I had to wait 2 weeks and nothing turned up 4 telephone calls later, and I'm still waiting!
After the IPA/IPF had sent the information through to me they followed it up with a telephone call and answered all the questions that I had.
I'm sure Balpa offer a great service, but the IPA/IPF proved to me that I wasn't just a revenue stream!
Thanks for all your advice.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IPA ok for now, pointless later on.
To be honest if you're just starting your initial training, it doesn't matter which you join, because the only useful thing either will provide is an overview of the employment situation. I was a member of the IPA and I found it quite good at this stage in my career, perhaps more so than BALPA. And it's true that the IPA gives one the personal touch.
Once you've qualified and got that much sort after job, things change. Now the name of the game is to protect and hopefully enhance your working conditions, pay and benefits. Assuming the airline in question has collective representation agreement with their pilots, and all the ones worth working for do, being a member of the right union becomes very important because your reps can only have a strong negotiating through strength of numbers and a general resolve amongst members to achieve their aims. You will be doing yourself and your colleagues a disservice if choose to a union other that that with the collective representation agreement. Save one airline, IPA/IPF doesn't have any of these and I can't honestly see it displace BALPA from any other airline.
Once you've qualified and got that much sort after job, things change. Now the name of the game is to protect and hopefully enhance your working conditions, pay and benefits. Assuming the airline in question has collective representation agreement with their pilots, and all the ones worth working for do, being a member of the right union becomes very important because your reps can only have a strong negotiating through strength of numbers and a general resolve amongst members to achieve their aims. You will be doing yourself and your colleagues a disservice if choose to a union other that that with the collective representation agreement. Save one airline, IPA/IPF doesn't have any of these and I can't honestly see it displace BALPA from any other airline.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
they have told me that if the IPA/IPF had recognition in their particular airline they would rather be members of the IPA/IPF.
I really wish BALPA would learn from IPAs customer service though. I too have found them dreadful at replying to correspondance or messages.
Hello there Speedbird,
I'm most impressed with the debate you've stimulated on this topic. I think all the replies have been well written, mature, and carefully considered. Exactly, IMHO the sort of thing that makes this website worthwhile.
I'm saddened to hear that it took BALPA so long to respond to your enquiry. In my career, I have found them to be frustrating at times, I even left them once. I do admit though that the career I've enjoyed thus far with a good airline has been good largely because of BALPA. The support of BALPA by our pilots has been crucial in establishing and maintaining a decent working life.
I commended BALPA to you largely for the legal representation it could ultimately provide if you suffer a really bad day. For me that underpins membership. I still believe it to be the best.
I'm sure you have sought the best in your training, aspire to be the best you can be, and want ultimately to work in the best possible environment. You certainly won't want to end up in some frightful sweat shop company, with poor standards, poor conditions, and poor working relations.
For me, anything less than BALPA is second best.
I think that you had made your mind up before your original post. Your comment that BALPA took 2 weeks to reply after all predates your original post of 11 days ago. I'm sorry then, that I and all the others posting in favour of BALPA have not carried this debate in your case. No matter, I shall be gracious in defeat and wish you well.
Good luck to you, and remember - you can always change your mind!
I'm most impressed with the debate you've stimulated on this topic. I think all the replies have been well written, mature, and carefully considered. Exactly, IMHO the sort of thing that makes this website worthwhile.
I'm saddened to hear that it took BALPA so long to respond to your enquiry. In my career, I have found them to be frustrating at times, I even left them once. I do admit though that the career I've enjoyed thus far with a good airline has been good largely because of BALPA. The support of BALPA by our pilots has been crucial in establishing and maintaining a decent working life.
I commended BALPA to you largely for the legal representation it could ultimately provide if you suffer a really bad day. For me that underpins membership. I still believe it to be the best.
I'm sure you have sought the best in your training, aspire to be the best you can be, and want ultimately to work in the best possible environment. You certainly won't want to end up in some frightful sweat shop company, with poor standards, poor conditions, and poor working relations.
For me, anything less than BALPA is second best.
I think that you had made your mind up before your original post. Your comment that BALPA took 2 weeks to reply after all predates your original post of 11 days ago. I'm sorry then, that I and all the others posting in favour of BALPA have not carried this debate in your case. No matter, I shall be gracious in defeat and wish you well.
Good luck to you, and remember - you can always change your mind!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is fair to say that BALPA is what you make it. It is a "Company" based organisation with National coverage. Your subs are to pay for the skills and facilities that we lack as pilots (or don't have time to excercise) which are provided by paid union representatives and third parties. Maybe those that moan are not contributing enough (effort) and/or have unrealistic expectations. Personally speaking, BALPA has been superb value for money.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: london
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have to support each other
Joining the IPA/IPF, for me was the right thing to do. I don't take away anything that the balpa members have said in here. I know from my experience of being a union rep over the years that it is also down the reps to make the membership experience a good one for all there members.
I hear and understand what the balpa members have said but at the same time I've also spoken pilots who are not in balpa or pilots who have recently joined balpa due to inpending possible strike action being taken in their airline. When asked why they joined they said it was just due to the fact that they might have to go on strike.
Please don't take my last comment out of context. I'm sure that if worked for a airline that had a union recognition and they were about to go out on strike then I would also join for my protection.
Its just that i've also read what a the balpa members have written in here and some of them have not got all the facts right.
Please below
"All ‘Full IPA/IPF’ members are provided with Legal Expenses cover under the group Basic Legal Scheme, that provides up to £10,000 of cover for incidents relating to their employment with a UK operator (there is an excess payable by the member in the event of a claim).
Such incidents that may be covered are representation of the member at hearings into aircraft accidents or incidents anywhere in the world, or pursuit/defence of any claim or legal proceedings arising out of the member’s employment against a UK based employer and pursuit of a claim against any third party for injury to the member happening within the UK.
This is a useful benefit of membership for ‘Full IPA/IPF’ members that is funded by the IPA but provided by MJ Mac & Co general insurance brokers, administered by Abbey Legal Protection and underwritten by Brit Insurance Ltd. There is, therefore, no element of discretion on the part of the Association as to which cases will be supported.
It is recognised, however, that £10,000 of cover will run out very quickly in the event of even a small claim so the Association recommends that additional cover is purchased by the member through the Supplementary Scheme for which concessionary rates are available for IPA members.
There is a range of options available depending upon the Limit of Indemnity and Territorial Limits required, as shown below:
TerritorialLimits Limit of Indemnity Annual Premium (including IPT)
Worldwide excl. USA £125,000 £89.25
Worldwide excl. USA £250,000 £137.55
Worldwide incl. USA £125,000 £147.00
In all cases, should a claim be made the Basic Scheme is used to fund the excess payable under the Supplementary Scheme so there is no further cost to the insured member.
A further benefit of the Supplementary Scheme is a free legal advice telephone line that provides confidential and impartial advice on General Legal matters, Employment matters and Aviation Legal matters."
One of the previous post got the level of cover wrong.
I've always thought that it is important to remember where you have come from and what you have achieved, at the same time you must always support others who have the desire to strive to reach their goals to and this is one of the reasons that I've decided to Join the IPA. They help people get there first flying jobs and that is something that none of us should ever forget or even turn our backs on.
Be a member of both unions if you have to. look upon it as giving something back to the organisation that helped you when you were a lot younger than you are now.
I hear and understand what the balpa members have said but at the same time I've also spoken pilots who are not in balpa or pilots who have recently joined balpa due to inpending possible strike action being taken in their airline. When asked why they joined they said it was just due to the fact that they might have to go on strike.
Please don't take my last comment out of context. I'm sure that if worked for a airline that had a union recognition and they were about to go out on strike then I would also join for my protection.
Its just that i've also read what a the balpa members have written in here and some of them have not got all the facts right.
Please below
"All ‘Full IPA/IPF’ members are provided with Legal Expenses cover under the group Basic Legal Scheme, that provides up to £10,000 of cover for incidents relating to their employment with a UK operator (there is an excess payable by the member in the event of a claim).
Such incidents that may be covered are representation of the member at hearings into aircraft accidents or incidents anywhere in the world, or pursuit/defence of any claim or legal proceedings arising out of the member’s employment against a UK based employer and pursuit of a claim against any third party for injury to the member happening within the UK.
This is a useful benefit of membership for ‘Full IPA/IPF’ members that is funded by the IPA but provided by MJ Mac & Co general insurance brokers, administered by Abbey Legal Protection and underwritten by Brit Insurance Ltd. There is, therefore, no element of discretion on the part of the Association as to which cases will be supported.
It is recognised, however, that £10,000 of cover will run out very quickly in the event of even a small claim so the Association recommends that additional cover is purchased by the member through the Supplementary Scheme for which concessionary rates are available for IPA members.
There is a range of options available depending upon the Limit of Indemnity and Territorial Limits required, as shown below:
TerritorialLimits Limit of Indemnity Annual Premium (including IPT)
Worldwide excl. USA £125,000 £89.25
Worldwide excl. USA £250,000 £137.55
Worldwide incl. USA £125,000 £147.00
In all cases, should a claim be made the Basic Scheme is used to fund the excess payable under the Supplementary Scheme so there is no further cost to the insured member.
A further benefit of the Supplementary Scheme is a free legal advice telephone line that provides confidential and impartial advice on General Legal matters, Employment matters and Aviation Legal matters."
One of the previous post got the level of cover wrong.
I've always thought that it is important to remember where you have come from and what you have achieved, at the same time you must always support others who have the desire to strive to reach their goals to and this is one of the reasons that I've decided to Join the IPA. They help people get there first flying jobs and that is something that none of us should ever forget or even turn our backs on.
Be a member of both unions if you have to. look upon it as giving something back to the organisation that helped you when you were a lot younger than you are now.
BALPA legal protection / tits on a bull.
Dear All
I know of a former airline captain, who after being treated appallingly by a company who he had worked for over six years, asked BALPA for help.
It was a legal matter, and he had several witnessess who would testify with reference to his poor treatment. This extended to foul abuse from the Operations Director, shouted in the airline HQ main office!!!
The response from BALPA?
"We do not have the money to let you have access to legal assistance".
The said Captain then had to go to a private solicitor, who successfully took action against the company. I believe the Captain resigned from BALPA shortly after.
I am NOT saying BALPA treat all members in this manner, but this is not a very good example of how fully paid-up members are treated.
Me thinks from a legal protection view point, private cover is best. If you want legal help, you should get it - it should not be decided by a bean-counter, or people who are 'not interested'.
I also suspect the IPA are pretty good, as has been stated above.
I know of a former airline captain, who after being treated appallingly by a company who he had worked for over six years, asked BALPA for help.
It was a legal matter, and he had several witnessess who would testify with reference to his poor treatment. This extended to foul abuse from the Operations Director, shouted in the airline HQ main office!!!
The response from BALPA?
"We do not have the money to let you have access to legal assistance".
The said Captain then had to go to a private solicitor, who successfully took action against the company. I believe the Captain resigned from BALPA shortly after.
I am NOT saying BALPA treat all members in this manner, but this is not a very good example of how fully paid-up members are treated.
Me thinks from a legal protection view point, private cover is best. If you want legal help, you should get it - it should not be decided by a bean-counter, or people who are 'not interested'.
I also suspect the IPA are pretty good, as has been stated above.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am also considering joining a union. Just to open up the debate a little further, I understand the T&G offer full legal cover with no cost limits or excess payments. Obviously they are not aviation experts however at £9.00 / month it is remarkable value if you want to get sound legal cover (about 1/10th Balpa charge). Other pros or cons please.......
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
guys, some of you are missing this substantive point here
You join a union to support and have a say in any collective representation agreement that you may have in your company.
If your company doesn't have a collective representation agreement, if you want one, join the union most likely to get enough support to join to force your company to recognise them, therefore it's actually counter productive to join union that is only a fringe player in our profession.
To any of you who are unsure about what I'm saying, just think of the airlines with the best overall terms & conditions in the UK. All of these are strong BALPA airlines and none of managements provide the best pay, benefits & lifestyle out of the goodness in their souls, they do it because they are faced with a strong, cohesive pilot workforce.
If your company doesn't have a collective representation agreement, if you want one, join the union most likely to get enough support to join to force your company to recognise them, therefore it's actually counter productive to join union that is only a fringe player in our profession.
To any of you who are unsure about what I'm saying, just think of the airlines with the best overall terms & conditions in the UK. All of these are strong BALPA airlines and none of managements provide the best pay, benefits & lifestyle out of the goodness in their souls, they do it because they are faced with a strong, cohesive pilot workforce.
Last edited by notdavegorman; 3rd Apr 2006 at 11:30.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
support and have a say in any collective representation
Any other advantages to BALPA or IPA over T&G?
Last edited by Finman; 3rd Apr 2006 at 14:37. Reason: text
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: london
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For flight deck Value for money is the IPA
Value for money is the IPA. If we give them a chance it makes sense. Why pay over the odds for union subscriptions.
A bad union rep is worst than not having one at all. I'm not saying that any particular union is bad but you have to remember that we are all people and the union that wants to work in partnership with its members and the company is the one that will always win my vote.
If we all stick our head in the sand it will get us no where. With out a company there can be no union. I was told that by a cabin union rep a few years ago. He stated that we must strive to work in partnership with the company to get the best results for our members whilst at the same time giving some consideration to what the company needs to grow. After all if the company doesn't grow then neither can the members pay packets and terms and conditions.
It doesn't take rocket science to negociate with the management, but the longer it takes the more the high levels of subscriptions are justified. Why pay 1% of your salary when you can pay £11 a month for a really good deal. If you have to pay more to get a better deal then you must really ask yourself have you really got such a good deal in the first place if you have to pay extra for it. "Take care of the pennies and let the pounds take care of themselves" If you are a member of the IPA then continue to support them. after all they have continued to support you. If you have a union that spends more time huffing and puffing than getting a good result for its members then you are wasting your money.
£11 per month with the IPA gets expert advice for the flight deck. I'm sure the T&G don't have the expertise that the IPA do when it comes to representing flight deck.
You can scream Balpa from the roof tops. But at the same time a union is only as good as its representitives and its members, it doesn't matter how much you spend on Subscriptions. If you don't believe me ask the guys at easyjet! How much have they paid balpa over the last 3 years. How long have they been waiting for a decent pay rise. What happened to their loyalty bonus. They had it a few years ago. Where is it now?
A bad union rep is worst than not having one at all. I'm not saying that any particular union is bad but you have to remember that we are all people and the union that wants to work in partnership with its members and the company is the one that will always win my vote.
If we all stick our head in the sand it will get us no where. With out a company there can be no union. I was told that by a cabin union rep a few years ago. He stated that we must strive to work in partnership with the company to get the best results for our members whilst at the same time giving some consideration to what the company needs to grow. After all if the company doesn't grow then neither can the members pay packets and terms and conditions.
It doesn't take rocket science to negociate with the management, but the longer it takes the more the high levels of subscriptions are justified. Why pay 1% of your salary when you can pay £11 a month for a really good deal. If you have to pay more to get a better deal then you must really ask yourself have you really got such a good deal in the first place if you have to pay extra for it. "Take care of the pennies and let the pounds take care of themselves" If you are a member of the IPA then continue to support them. after all they have continued to support you. If you have a union that spends more time huffing and puffing than getting a good result for its members then you are wasting your money.
£11 per month with the IPA gets expert advice for the flight deck. I'm sure the T&G don't have the expertise that the IPA do when it comes to representing flight deck.
You can scream Balpa from the roof tops. But at the same time a union is only as good as its representitives and its members, it doesn't matter how much you spend on Subscriptions. If you don't believe me ask the guys at easyjet! How much have they paid balpa over the last 3 years. How long have they been waiting for a decent pay rise. What happened to their loyalty bonus. They had it a few years ago. Where is it now?
Last edited by speedbird800; 5th Apr 2006 at 23:23.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reducing it to the bare bones, the level of your terms and conditions are down to supply and demand, (which you cant do much about), and your ability to withdraw your services and go out on strike. This is only ever going to be possible with BALPA recognition; No other union is ever going to get the momentum amongst pilots to get membership levels sufficiently high, and no airline management is going to pay any more than lip-service to pilots demands unless they are filled with the fear of total operational collapse through a strike. Fine, save yourself your 1%, but you had better satisfy yourself with a salary a good 20%+ lower than the your contemporaries at a BALPA airline - A false economy, me thinks.
From reading the easyjet threads, I am worried that BALPA are still reluctant to rattle their sabre, even when membership levels are pushed above 50%; I think BALPAs worth will be demonstrated by their results at easy.
IPA are excellent at industry level lobbying, and for that I would recommend their membership, but I think it is a shame they set up the IPF. However, no airline pilot should be without BALPA membership, IMHO.
From reading the easyjet threads, I am worried that BALPA are still reluctant to rattle their sabre, even when membership levels are pushed above 50%; I think BALPAs worth will be demonstrated by their results at easy.
IPA are excellent at industry level lobbying, and for that I would recommend their membership, but I think it is a shame they set up the IPF. However, no airline pilot should be without BALPA membership, IMHO.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: world
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the not inconceivable scenario of bmi collapsing, being taken over by BA for it's slots, and the majority of the pilots being summarily dismissed, the sacked Midland pilots would have ample opportunity to evaluate just how much their hefty BALPA subscriptions over the years have benefitted them, as BALPA will ALWAYS totally support BA in whatever it decides to do, to the detriment of ALL others. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming. BALPA will also fight BA pilots' corner effectively, with other individuals their record is patchy to say the least.
After BALPA abandoned them to their fate during the BA takeover, the sacked DANAIR pilots, of whom some 170 out of 300 formed their own action group to try to get some justice out of BA's illegal activities, would have greatly improved chances of restitution had the IPA/IPF been then the strength it is today. The DANAIR case was immeasurably stronger than the Cathay 49'ers but had only their own limited [unemployed] resources to fall back on. DANAIR had 90%+ of it's pilots in BALPA , and some had over 30 years membership in the worthless outfit. How much insurance would their total subscriptions have bought in the open market?
In this life people say 'you get what you pay for'. Not with BALPA you don't, [unless you actively enjoy subsidising mainline BA pilots' squabbles!] At least with the IPA/IPF the playing field is level, so my choice is automatic.
After BALPA abandoned them to their fate during the BA takeover, the sacked DANAIR pilots, of whom some 170 out of 300 formed their own action group to try to get some justice out of BA's illegal activities, would have greatly improved chances of restitution had the IPA/IPF been then the strength it is today. The DANAIR case was immeasurably stronger than the Cathay 49'ers but had only their own limited [unemployed] resources to fall back on. DANAIR had 90%+ of it's pilots in BALPA , and some had over 30 years membership in the worthless outfit. How much insurance would their total subscriptions have bought in the open market?
In this life people say 'you get what you pay for'. Not with BALPA you don't, [unless you actively enjoy subsidising mainline BA pilots' squabbles!] At least with the IPA/IPF the playing field is level, so my choice is automatic.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear XRBA,
I don't think this Dan Air issue will ever go away for you guys. Was BALPA at fault then? I don't know because I was not close to it, but I know a man who was. I will try to get his view. However, whatever the situation was in BALPA at that time, virtually everything has changed. New General Secretary, new Chairman and new constitution of the NEC which no longer has a built in majority for BA members.
Would the same thing happen again? I don't think so. The disaffected DA pilots all ran off to form the IPA. Tell me how that has helped them?
Much as I sympathise with your cause (and I do) for your own peace of mind, I urge you to try to move on. Just sitting at home slagging off BALPA at every opportunity is not healthy. Joining BALPA and ensuring that this never happens again would be more constructive. Tents and pi*sing are the two words that come to mind.
BC
I don't think this Dan Air issue will ever go away for you guys. Was BALPA at fault then? I don't know because I was not close to it, but I know a man who was. I will try to get his view. However, whatever the situation was in BALPA at that time, virtually everything has changed. New General Secretary, new Chairman and new constitution of the NEC which no longer has a built in majority for BA members.
Would the same thing happen again? I don't think so. The disaffected DA pilots all ran off to form the IPA. Tell me how that has helped them?
Much as I sympathise with your cause (and I do) for your own peace of mind, I urge you to try to move on. Just sitting at home slagging off BALPA at every opportunity is not healthy. Joining BALPA and ensuring that this never happens again would be more constructive. Tents and pi*sing are the two words that come to mind.
BC
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Since entering commercial aviation 10 years ago from a military background, I have come across a significant number of pilots who loathe BALPA with undying hatred - all entirely due to their experiences at Dan Air. These people have been extremely successful in robbing BALPA of its reputation and credibility among would-be members with tales of incompetence, indifference and corruption. There is no doubt that BALPA now deeply regret all that happened at with Dan Air and their part in the subsequent debacle. It was a true low point in the history of the trade union movement within aviation and did enormous damage to BALPA's reputation in particular. Nonetheless, like all situations where wrong occured in the past we have a choice. We can hold onto and nurse our deepest prejudices or we can let go and look to the future. As a Scotsman, for example, I am constantly dismayed to hear of my fellow countrymen still going on about the horror of Culloden (1745) or the Irish reliving the injustices of the Potato Famine (1869). We have a choice - my choice is to move on.
I also choose to believe that despite the undoubted failings of BALPA over Dan Air, they are an excellent organisation who right now offer the only credible counter to unscrupulous management. I personally know and respect a number of member of the IPA/IPF, but as an organisation they really only represent individuals and at present have no ability to represent a company's pilots en-masse. If you have an ongoing dispute with your company as a body of pilots then the only place to turn is BALPA. The IPA/IPF, through no fault of their own, have little real experience at dealing with the high pressure situatons that can arise during the cut and thrust of mass company negotiations where both members and management are at your throat. BALPA have years of experience of dealing with this and I am increasingly grateful for their steady hand in times of crisis.
I also choose to believe that despite the undoubted failings of BALPA over Dan Air, they are an excellent organisation who right now offer the only credible counter to unscrupulous management. I personally know and respect a number of member of the IPA/IPF, but as an organisation they really only represent individuals and at present have no ability to represent a company's pilots en-masse. If you have an ongoing dispute with your company as a body of pilots then the only place to turn is BALPA. The IPA/IPF, through no fault of their own, have little real experience at dealing with the high pressure situatons that can arise during the cut and thrust of mass company negotiations where both members and management are at your throat. BALPA have years of experience of dealing with this and I am increasingly grateful for their steady hand in times of crisis.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: london
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I beg to differ
Lets put the Dan Air issue to one side for a moment. Lets talk about the cost of Joining Balpa to the cost of Joining the IPA/IPF. Why do pilots need to pay one percent of their Salary for Membership?
I can't think of any reason why the pilots need to pay 1% With regards to the IPA/IPF it is only £11.00 per month if you want to pay extra you can to top up your benefits.
This was not started as a war between Balpa and the IPA/IPF. It's about Value for money. In the industry that we all work in over the last 10 years in Europe prices in this industry have be driven down. So why are Balpa still Charging 1% of your Salary.
Lets put it in another prospective. Some of you have been paying into your pensions for the last 10-20 years. How much is your pension worth now. Surely you should be saving as much money as possible. Surely being a member of the union is to look after you in every way including keeping the amount of money you pay in subs. 1% is far to much. Some of that money should be kept in your own bank accounts. Surely 1% means that you are paying way over the odds. If you were getting great pay deals year on year and great rostering agreements year on year, then I would say at least you can justify it. However your not. What you getting is a frenzy of people saying if it happens..... . Lets face it, if it does happen, all the membership of Balpa have paid well over the top. Unions Like, Cabin Crew 89, Amicus, Transport and General workers and unison, don't charge this much and in certain cases they have taken on legal issues that cost millions. Amicus have won over £54,000,000 in previous years in compo claims and legal claims for its members. All for £9.20 a month. So come balpa members you tell me What have you really got for your 1%. Has your pension got better. Has easyjet got a loyalty bonus? No they haven't. Before Balpa got involved they had one. When Balpa got involved they lost it!
In the worlds of the old A'level exams which I hated at the end of every question.....
Discus!
I can't think of any reason why the pilots need to pay 1% With regards to the IPA/IPF it is only £11.00 per month if you want to pay extra you can to top up your benefits.
This was not started as a war between Balpa and the IPA/IPF. It's about Value for money. In the industry that we all work in over the last 10 years in Europe prices in this industry have be driven down. So why are Balpa still Charging 1% of your Salary.
Lets put it in another prospective. Some of you have been paying into your pensions for the last 10-20 years. How much is your pension worth now. Surely you should be saving as much money as possible. Surely being a member of the union is to look after you in every way including keeping the amount of money you pay in subs. 1% is far to much. Some of that money should be kept in your own bank accounts. Surely 1% means that you are paying way over the odds. If you were getting great pay deals year on year and great rostering agreements year on year, then I would say at least you can justify it. However your not. What you getting is a frenzy of people saying if it happens..... . Lets face it, if it does happen, all the membership of Balpa have paid well over the top. Unions Like, Cabin Crew 89, Amicus, Transport and General workers and unison, don't charge this much and in certain cases they have taken on legal issues that cost millions. Amicus have won over £54,000,000 in previous years in compo claims and legal claims for its members. All for £9.20 a month. So come balpa members you tell me What have you really got for your 1%. Has your pension got better. Has easyjet got a loyalty bonus? No they haven't. Before Balpa got involved they had one. When Balpa got involved they lost it!
In the worlds of the old A'level exams which I hated at the end of every question.....
Discus!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
speedbird 800,
Throw your discus away. BALPA is a member of IFALPA. IFALPA recommends its member associations to charge a minimum of 1% of salary as a subscription. Something like 100 pilot associations around the world do just that. Some charge even more. From your trail of posts,you are clearly anti BALPA. Fair enough, but just remember the old adage of you get what you pay for. You don't pay very much for the IPA/IPF so don't expect very much. Your post throws so many random issues together and blames all the ills on BALPA. Clearly an organisation with approximately 8500 members has to charge more per member than one like Amicus with several million. That does not make one organisation bad or the other good. Don't forget either, that if you have an accident just about anywhere in the world, a local IFALPA affiliated pilot association will rapidly come to your aid speaking the local lingo and knowing the local laws. Believe me, I've tried it! I don't think that Amicus will offer you that service, and I'm damn sure the IPA/IPF won't.
The choice is yours.
BC
PS With the (newish) tax relief on 66.6% of your BALPA subscription and a new increased national fixed rate expense allowance on the way, the 1% subscription will effectively reduce to zero. So what price Amicus or the IPA?
Throw your discus away. BALPA is a member of IFALPA. IFALPA recommends its member associations to charge a minimum of 1% of salary as a subscription. Something like 100 pilot associations around the world do just that. Some charge even more. From your trail of posts,you are clearly anti BALPA. Fair enough, but just remember the old adage of you get what you pay for. You don't pay very much for the IPA/IPF so don't expect very much. Your post throws so many random issues together and blames all the ills on BALPA. Clearly an organisation with approximately 8500 members has to charge more per member than one like Amicus with several million. That does not make one organisation bad or the other good. Don't forget either, that if you have an accident just about anywhere in the world, a local IFALPA affiliated pilot association will rapidly come to your aid speaking the local lingo and knowing the local laws. Believe me, I've tried it! I don't think that Amicus will offer you that service, and I'm damn sure the IPA/IPF won't.
The choice is yours.
BC
PS With the (newish) tax relief on 66.6% of your BALPA subscription and a new increased national fixed rate expense allowance on the way, the 1% subscription will effectively reduce to zero. So what price Amicus or the IPA?
Last edited by Brae_Cwynd; 7th Apr 2006 at 23:49.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: london
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once again I beg to differ
I'm not Anti Balpa at all. I'm Anti 1%. It's true many people don't know the local customs of different countries and the Local Laws. Even with IFALPA 1% is a lot of money to pay.
With the IPA/IPF, you can still be represented however they will arrange for a local Lawyer in that territory to represent you. Please don't tell me that I'm anti Balpa, I'm not. I repeat I just don't think any union in the world should be charging its members 1% of there annual salary.
Put another way. You go to the company and ask for a 5% pay rise for your members. The company say we can only give you 4%. Thats our finall offer. You guys meet the company on several different times and can't get the company to move on the 1% difference. Whats the problem?
So you have the members Ballot for industrial action.
"Well we need 4% for the members and we need the extra 1% for our subs!"
Not a nice way to look at it. Or may be I just have a dark sense of Humor.
Drope the 1% and make it a more sensible price. Why don't you have a look at what nuclear power station workers pay their union!
Discuss
With the IPA/IPF, you can still be represented however they will arrange for a local Lawyer in that territory to represent you. Please don't tell me that I'm anti Balpa, I'm not. I repeat I just don't think any union in the world should be charging its members 1% of there annual salary.
Put another way. You go to the company and ask for a 5% pay rise for your members. The company say we can only give you 4%. Thats our finall offer. You guys meet the company on several different times and can't get the company to move on the 1% difference. Whats the problem?
So you have the members Ballot for industrial action.
"Well we need 4% for the members and we need the extra 1% for our subs!"
Not a nice way to look at it. Or may be I just have a dark sense of Humor.
Drope the 1% and make it a more sensible price. Why don't you have a look at what nuclear power station workers pay their union!
Discuss